Racial Segregation

[Castus]

Raven not posted yet ?:england:

 

[tierk]

I disagree..

There is a surprise!!

....The jews have managed to preserve their religion and culture despite being a scattered minority for all that time before Israel. They did this by distancing themselves from others.......

I think you are partly right but you fail to make the distinction between religion and culture. They are two seperate things. The Jews from Eastern Europe have a very different culture to Jews that are from Ethopia or Yemeni Jews.

Just the same the same way that a Muslim from say Senegal is very different culturally from a Muslim from Iran.

....If that were true then many ethnic minorities that exist today would have disappeared already. Whether its a good thing that these minorities survive is up to you to decide........

I think you will find many ethnic minorities have pretty much disappeared over the last five hundrered years. In addition you will find that most cultures of today have a base in a lot of culture far far older than the current ones that are in existence today.

....If you look at the questions ive asked so far all of them have pretty much the same message. Is racial segregation wrong in all cases?........

I think you know full well the answer to this but because you wish to engage in useless debating with people on this forum you will not admit this.

....ps. Im still waiting for someone to tell me why this question is so stupid.

DOH!!! :lol:

Because it is you posing this question!!!

 

[Gorbachioo]

I think you are partly right but you fail to make the distinction between religion and culture. They are two seperate things. The Jews from Eastern Europe have a very different culture to Jews that are from Ethopia or Yemeni Jews.

Just the same the same way that a Muslim from say Senegal is very different culturally from a Muslim from Iran.

I think you will find many ethnic minorities have pretty much disappeared over the last five hundrered years. In addition you will find that most cultures of today have a base in a lot of culture far far older than the current ones that are in existence today.

Well religion then.. They have managed to preserve their religion. Whats the difference in this case?

I know many ethnic minorities have disappeared. And theres many more to come. The whole point of this thread is to find out whether people would support any action to prevent this.

So your answer to my question is no. What should the tibetans do in your opinion then? Should they accept the chinese immigration and at the same time accept that the tibetan culture will disappear in a 100 years?

 

[noblok]

So your answer to my question is no. What should the tibetans do in your opinion then? Should they accept the chinese immigration and at the same time accept that the tibetan culture will disappear in a 100 years?

You said yourself the Jews managed to pull it off and they didn't need to limit immigration: they were immigrants themselves (see also: Chinatowns, Little Italy, etc.). I really don't see why Chinese immigration would imply the disappearing of the Tibetan culture.

 

[Raven]

Raven not posted yet ?:england:

Twice...Can you not read Mr E-stalker?


Anyway, as I always say, please feel free to quote any racist reference that I have posted ever...Oh wait you can't.


Back on topic

Gorbachioo
Cultures can survive mass immigration but that is not what you asked in the first post, you titled it racial segregation which is completely different to cultural segregation. You just need to look at the UK to see where all racial groups mix (despite the damage idiots like Castus try to cause, crying racism when there isn't any which does FAR more damage than any BNP member) different cultures also mix, just take a trip to London to see how well cultures can mix. On the flip side if you go to parts of Birmingham or Bradford you will find areas that are full of different groups of people that generally keep themselves to themselves so I guess that is cultural segregation and to a certain extent racial segregation, though totally self imposed.

 

[Gorbachioo]

You said yourself the Jews managed to pull it off and they didn't need to limit immigration: they were immigrants themselves (see also: Chinatowns, Little Italy, etc.). I really don't see why Chinese immigration would imply the disappearing of the Tibetan culture.

They didnt limit immigration because as you said they did not have the power to do so. Instead they did everything they could to distance themselves from others in ways we would deem racist today if it were to happen by white people.

One of the biggest issues in the tibet question is the survival of the tibetan culture. What do you think will happen if a 100 million chinese move in? I think its just logical to assume that overtime the tibetan population would blend in to the chinese.

As for the chinatowns and little italies. Arent they a product of the USAs racist history? The chinese and italians were both once discriminated minorities who then gathered in to their own small communities. I dont have any statistics but i could bet that those communities are slowly dying off these days.

 

[Raven]

What should the tibetans do in your opinion then? Should they accept the chinese immigration and at the same time accept that the tibetan culture will disappear in a 100 years?

It is up to the Tibetans to preserve their own culture, which they will. You can't force them to pick either culture, that would be just as bad as outlawing their way of life.

 

[noblok]

They didnt limit immigration because as you said they did not have the power to do so. Instead they did everything they could to distance themselves from others in ways we would deem racist today if it were to happen by white people.

What are these racist methods they employed?

One of the biggest issues in the tibet question is the survival of the tibetan culture. What do you think will happen if a 100 million chinese move in? I think its just logical to assume that overtime the tibetan population would blend in to the chinese.

I assume the Tibetans will keep their cultural identity and if they decide not to, that's their right. The Chinese don't force their culture to the Tibetans by just living there. If the Tibetans want to keep their own cultural identity, they could do that by living together etc. Obviously this becomes harder when legislation comes into play, at least when the Chinese legislation clashes with the Tibetan cultural values. (A problem we're now confronted with in Europe as well.)

As for the chinatowns and little italies. Arent they a product of the USAs racist history? The chinese and italians were both once discriminated minorities who then gathered in to their own small communities. I dont have any statistics but i could bet that those communities are slowly dying off these days.

Possibly. I haven't studied the history of the USA. However: according to what you say they are the discriminated group, not discriminating, which means it should be possible to preserve your cultural identity without dscriminating other people.

 

[Raven]

As for the chinatowns and little italies. Arent they a product of the USAs racist history? The chinese and italians were both once discriminated minorities who then gathered in to their own small communities. I dont have any statistics but i could bet that those communities are slowly dying off these days.

No they weren't....

The Chinese went over because there was work building the railways and they were willing to do it cheap, very similar to the poles that come over here, people complain about them but for the most part they work. They do jobs that quite a lot of people would turn their noses up at, cleaning, fruit/veg picking, general labouring.
The Italians went over the same way anyone else did, the Irish, the British, French, Dutch, whatever but they were keener to preserve their culture so lived close together I guess.

 

[Raven]

Obviously, because the UK is ran by baboons and full of PC-abiding cock-loving anal-throbbing bastards, our culture and identity is being slowly torn away by other impeding cultures.

While I agree that the country is being run into the ground by self serving wankers, I do not agree that our culture is being eroded, maybe in some parts of the country but certainly not on mass. Where it is happening you can't really blame "outsiders" which on the whole are well behaved, hard working and respectful. There are certain groups which do come here for a free ride and have absolutely NO respect for this country or its citizens who should be deported immediately before they do any more damage but we should not shut the door to other cultures, the UK has always accepted other cultures so long as they accept ours which I would like to hope continues.

 

[Gorbachioo]

What are these racist methods they employed?



I assume the Tibetans will keep their cultural identity and if they decide not to, that's their right. The Chinese don't force their culture to the Tibetans by just living there. If the Tibetans want to keep their own cultural identity, they could do that by living together etc. Obviously this becomes harder when legislation comes into play, at least when the Chinese legislation clashes with the Tibetan cultural values. (A problem we're now confronted with in Europe as well.)



Possibly. I haven't studied the history of the USA. However: according to what you say they are the discriminated group, not discriminating, which means it should be possible to preserve your cultural identity without dscriminating other people.

Well basically just keeping to their own small communities. Often they would ban marriages where the bride or groom wasnt a jew. Things like that.

If a much smaller ethnic group lives with a larger one without any limitations they start marrying eachother which gradually results in the disappearance of the smaller ethnic group. I dont think theres any dispute over this by any scientists. So in a way the chinese do force their culture to the tibetans just by living there. Its not intended but it happens. If they do decide to keep their culture then they would have to use same things as the jews did.

The tibetans are not discriminated in tibet (atleast not that i know off) so they would have to do the discriminating to survive. Ofcourse that wouldnt be needed if the chinese discriminated them.

 

[noblok]

- Keeping to your own small communities isn't really racism though. Banning marriages with people from another culture is something else. They did however not have the power to pass any laws to support this, meaning that any sanction has to be a social sanction. While this still isn't perfect, it's not really easy to do anything about it. Just like parents cannot force their children to marry someone they like, children cannot force their parents to like the one they marry. (However, I believe that in Belgium there is a law which makes it impossible to disinherit your children, so that is something you can do about it, I guess.)

- If the culture disappears because people of different cultures marry one another, then it's not such a bad thing though, is it? The Chinese don't force their culture on someone else and so the ones who want to stick to the tibetan culture are able to do so. At least, they will be able to do so untill the number of Tibetans is so small that it's no longer capable of being a real community. I'm pretty communitarian myself, but I don't think one has the right to force one's culture on someone else.

Also muslims in Europe seem to be able to keep their (religious/cultural) identity for a large part. I also see shops with arabic, chinese and polish writing on them when I walk through Brussels, so I think these groups manage to keep their identity as well. One could argue that these groups are all the target of racism, but I don't know if that's the only reason why they manage to keep their cultural identity.

 

[Gorbachioo]

- Keeping to your own small communities isn't really racism though. Banning marriages with people from another culture is something else. They did however not have the power to pass any laws to support this, meaning that any sanction has to be a social sanction. While this still isn't perfect, it's not really easy to do anything about it. Just like parents cannot force their children to marry someone they like, children cannot force their parents to like the one they marry. (However, I believe that in Belgium there is a law which makes it impossible to disinherit your children, so that is something you can do about it, I guess.)

- If the culture disappears because people of different cultures marry one another, then it's not such a bad thing though, is it? The Chinese don't force their culture on someone else and so the ones who want to stick to the tibetan culture are able to do so. At least, they will be able to do so untill the number of Tibetans is so small that it's no longer capable of being a real community. I'm pretty communitarian myself, but I don't think one has the right to force one's culture on someone else.

Also muslims in Europe seem to be able to keep their (religious/cultural) identity for a large part. I also see shops with arabic, chinese and polish writing on them when I walk through Brussels, so I think these groups manage to keep their identity as well. One could argue that these groups are all the target of racism, but I don't know if that's the only reason why they manage to keep their cultural identity.

That works in theory, but in reality it would require for tibetans to consider marriage with a chinese completely unacceptable for it to work. I think you realise this. If you fell in love with someone would the future of your culture be a factor in your decision whether to marry him?

Muslims in Europe is a really new thing if you think about it which is a big factor. These things take time. Second of all, theres racism on both sides. You also have to remember that everytime a muslim marries a white person 10 more immigrate. So for many muslims the integration has just begun.

 

[noblok]

It wouldn't be the deciding factor, I don't believe there'll be any single one deciding factor, but it would play a role. It would even play a role earlier: I can imagine that if your culture is important to you, you'd sooner fall in love with someone with a similar cultural background. The greater the difference in culture, the more important it becomes (all of this probably goes for social classes as well). If there is a great difference between the tibetan and the chinese culture, I therefore don't think they've got anything to fear. If there's not such a big difference, the whole point of disappearing cultures becomes rather moot.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Hey Gorb, how does the "up the a** for backtracking and changing view" train taste? :lol:

 

[Lamp]

Lol, Toto

 

[tierk]

Hey Gorb, how does the "up the a** for backtracking and changing view" train taste? :lol:

Humm pot kettle and black?!?! :lol:

 

[old.Tohtori]

Humm pot kettle and black?!?! :lol:

Exactly the point, just had to comment on it

 

[Gorbachioo]

Hey Gorb, how does the "up the a** for backtracking and changing view" train taste? :lol:

Ive changed the questions because im not being clear enough for the retards. The point has always been the same.



Its funny though. Still no one has explained why my question was so stupid. I wonder why!

 

[Zede]

Old seeing the funneh side, Lamp going all Einstein on us, fuck only Gorbo left ! Im running out of people rip in to. All good considering

 

[old.Tohtori]

Ive changed the questions because im not being clear enough for the retards. The point has always been the same.

Its funny though. Still no one has explained why my question was so stupid. I wonder why!

Well, now you see how i saw when you felt the need to comment...how was it...ah yes...

"You're unbelievable "

Ain't so "easy" on the other side



Zede yeah, i don't get involved in things that might hold a controversial view in my mind, just makes it for easier time. If i have something to say, i'll say it, otherwise i think i'll stick to making :lol:

 

[Zede]

Ive changed the questions because im not being clear enough for the retards. The point has always been the same.



Its funny though. Still no one has explained why my question was so stupid. I wonder why!

Easy to "change" the question when us "retards" point out your glaring inconsistancies.

Your inital wording is just crap. Like old pointed out, backtracking, saying "oh what i should have said is this..." makes you look the retard. You have trouble differentiating between race and culture, using the jews & tibet as examples, then attempting to back it up, is a fail. Their is no implication, never has been that either the jews or tibetans are racist.

examples - years ago in Hampi, India we met 3 Belgians who lived the life of Sadhus ( indian holy men) in a cave near Hampi. They were preserving, living the culture of said holy men, but were in fact born & raised in Belgium.

Cat Stevens ( Yussef Islam) at the height of his fame, dropped everything and became a Sunni Muslim. He adopted the muslim culture entirely.

Culture can be maintained by anyone - nothing to do with race.

yours sincerely,

the retards.

 

[Golena]

Words in English have certain meanings.

If your not going to stick to those meanings, really how do you expect anyone to actually understand what your jabbering on about. Especially when your first second and third arguments were so utterly flawed?

Maybe no-ones answered the question because:
(a) They haven't managed to guess what your actually trying to ask, since what you type isn't actually what you mean.
(b) There isn't actually an answer. Or more likely, anyone giving an answer you don't agree with isn't considered to be answering the question.

Yes cultures have a right to try to defend their culture from outside threats.
No it's not our job to "help" them do it. If they want it preserved, they can do it themselves.

That a good enough answer for you?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Hey hey!

Maybe i can help Gorb here because of previous experience in "confusion of nations" threads!



So, what Gorb is asking is; Do you think it's ok for a nation to close its borders to preserve their nation/culture, in fear of racial/cultural/national mixing?

Public service announcement by Seel Industries ends.

Oh and:

I dispise people who post silly replies to discussion questions, but FH has individuals with reading problems so it can't be helped!

Hah. Haha....ahahahaha.....hih....Hello Mr Pot, have you met Mr Kettle, he's an african-american.

 

[Lamp]

Calling people "retards" becuase you couldn't clearly get your point across clearly is absurd. Give it up, sonny.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Easy to "change" the question when us "retards" point out your glaring inconsistancies.

Your inital wording is just crap. Like old pointed out, backtracking, saying "oh what i should have said is this..." makes you look the retard. You have trouble differentiating between race and culture, using the jews & tibet as examples, then attempting to back it up, is a fail. Their is no implication, never has been that either the jews or tibetans are racist.

examples - years ago in Hampi, India we met 3 Belgians who lived the life of Sadhus ( indian holy men) in a cave near Hampi. They were preserving, living the culture of said holy men, but were in fact born & raised in Belgium.

Cat Stevens ( Yussef Islam) at the height of his fame, dropped everything and became a Sunni Muslim. He adopted the muslim culture entirely.

Culture can be maintained by anyone - nothing to do with race.

yours sincerely,

the retards.

Im guessing you're not going to point out these "glaring inconsistancies". I wonder why..!

I changed the way i asked the question but the point was always the same. If you read what i said you will see this.

And like ive said before (again, you would know if you had read it) im not saying tibetans are racist. Im saying we/you/europeans call people racist who do the same things that tibetans do/jews did.


Yeah i never said culture cant be preserved. I said you there are many cases where you cant preserve it without things that we consider racist.


Ok so far you have not pointed out any good reason for your retarded comments. Try again.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Words in English have certain meanings.

If your not going to stick to those meanings, really how do you expect anyone to actually understand what your jabbering on about. Especially when your first second and third arguments were so utterly flawed?

Maybe no-ones answered the question because:
(a) They haven't managed to guess what your actually trying to ask, since what you type isn't actually what you mean.
(b) There isn't actually an answer. Or more likely, anyone giving an answer you don't agree with isn't considered to be answering the question.

Yes cultures have a right to try to defend their culture from outside threats.
No it's not our job to "help" them do it. If they want it preserved, they can do it themselves.

That a good enough answer for you?

I'll start by admitting the one thing i did actually change during this thread: First i talked about things on a global scale. The whole all cultures will mix eventually thing, but since some people didnt agree with me on that i started talking about individual cases like Tibet and the jews. The point remained the same, just the examples changed.

a) No. I asked clearly enough.


b) I have accepted different opinions as answers. See nobloks reply for example.


"Yes cultures have a right to try to defend their culture from outside threats.
No it's not our job to "help" them do it. If they want it preserved, they can do it themselves."

The whole fucking point of this thread was to ask HOW they can defend their culture. ("Is racial segregation always wrong?"). And i have never said its our job to do it. Where did you get that?

Now before you start telling me how we can all live peacefully together without cultures mixing ive already told you thats not true so give me a real answer or dont answer at all.


So no. Its not a good enough answer for me.

 

[Aoami]

In answer to the original question - It's not racist, and it's not important.

I don't care that there are many people of Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, West Indian etc decent in England. I wouldn't care if there wasn't either.

I do however think that immigrants should make an effort to embrace the culture of the Country they move to. In my local newsagents there are copies of Polish and Arabic papers - buy one of those to find out whats going on at home, fine, but pick up a copy of the Guardian too - i'm sure many people do though.

England is now an Atheist country, and Muslim immigrants have to accept that. Live your life by Muslim law by all means, but it's unfair to impose it on other people who don't have the same beliefs.

As young Muslim kids grow up i'm sure many will lose their faith and turn to 'the darkside' of western culture, and I would say that this will probably be a good thing for England as religion tends to do more harm than good.

 

[Zede]

Im guessing you're not going to point out these "glaring inconsistancies". I wonder why..!

I changed the way i asked the question but the point was always the same. If you read what i said you will see this.

And like ive said before (again, you would know if you had read it) im not saying tibetans are racist. Im saying we/you/europeans call people racist who do the same things that tibetans do/jews did.


Yeah i never said culture cant be preserved. I said you there are many cases where you cant preserve it without things that we consider racist.


Ok so far you have not pointed out any good reason for your retarded comments. Try again.

I will give you some credit - you are the last of a dying breed on FH. Your arrogance is stupendous, your credability zero, your comments inane.

Your "guessing" are you ? and boy are you happy, i even get an explanation mark your so full of testosterone. Wonder no futher m8zor. Right. This thread has people who have replied to your post - ok...we are good, you understand that.

These "retards" point out mistakes, factual errors, and dare i use the word again.....inconsistancies in your comments. Fuck me its only 5 pages long, and assuming ppl here can read english, have you had a mind blank regarding the eloquently put replies ?

Ok will try and explain in very basic terms.

You use the Jews and Tibetans as your examples to us all to argue your point.

Quote from you " Im not saying tibetans are racist" THATS JUST THE POINT YOU TIT - NOBODY, EVER, EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE FUCKING PLANET HAS CONSIDERED TIBETANS RACIST. So why the fuck would we want to make you feel special ? oh, i feel ok now, even though hes borderline skitzo, at least he dont think tibetans are racist - thank fuck for that !

 

[Gorbachioo]

I will give you some credit - you are the last of a dying breed on FH. Your arrogance is stupendous, your credability zero, your comments inane.

Your "guessing" are you ? and boy are you happy, i even get an explanation mark your so full of testosterone. Wonder no futher m8zor. Right. This thread has people who have replied to your post - ok...we are good, you understand that.

These "retards" point out mistakes, factual errors, and dare i use the word again.....inconsistancies in your comments. Fuck me its only 5 pages long, and assuming ppl here can read english, have you had a mind blank regarding the eloquently put replies ?

Ok will try and explain in very basic terms.

You use the Jews and Tibetans as your examples to us all to argue your point.

Quote from you " Im not saying tibetans are racist" THATS JUST THE POINT YOU TIT - NOBODY, EVER, EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE FUCKING PLANET HAS CONSIDERED TIBETANS RACIST. So why the fuck would we want to make you feel special ? oh, i feel ok now, even though hes borderline skitzo, at least he dont think tibetans are racist - thank fuck for that !

So you really are as stupid as i thought you were.

One more time. We/you/me/the whole planet dont think that tibetans are racist. We/you/me/the whole planet however, do think that people who use the same things that tibetans use to protect their culture are racist. So in other words, we accept some things when they are committed by tibetans (just 1 example) but not when they are committed by someone else. This is what this thread is about.

Do you understand this now my mentally challenged friend or should we go trough this again?


ps. I mean really, how fucking stupid can you be? 5 fucking pages and this is what you're talking about?