question new tax

[geldor]

so how dos this new tax work

if doac had servers in englad would we still have to pay that tax because its run by a french company ?

 

[tris-]

i think its the same even if the servers are in your country, but it doesnt matter cos we wont pay any more on the sub cost.

 

[Sibanac]

AFAIK you are already paying it, its a EU thingy so it is only when you buy stuff on the net from outside europe

 

[heilel]

Goa has stated subs will not go up as a result of the tax.

 

[parisienscot]

The new tax doesn't affect internet stuff in the EU - we've already been paying French VAT on our subscriptions since the start. The only change would be if you had a subscription to the US servers you would have to start paying VAT.

Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[ning]

Originally posted by geldor
so how dos this new tax work

if doac had servers in englad would we still have to pay that tax because its run by a french company ?

UK is in EU
France is in EU
==> no tax for us.
(except if you play on US servers. US is not in EU )

 

[Worm_th]

Originally posted by Sibanac
AFAIK you are already paying it, its a EU thingy so it is only when you buy stuff on the net from outside europe

I'm in the far east, givf discount!

 

[nalistah]

gifv money!

 

[Thorarin]

From last week's Friday News (article):

VAT changes, new European tax law :

As you probably know by now, since the 1st of July 2003, the companies outside of Europe who are offering digital services to customers within Europe will have to pay the VAT. We received many questions asking if European DAoC players are affected by this new law : The current subscription will not change.

 

[old.Glendower]

LOL!

Good luck trying to collect that tax from individuals!

You think any company in the US or outside the EU gives a shiit about some Euro tax? Why should they bother to even collect it?

The only ones who will try to collect this are ones actively marketing in conjunction with Euro companies. If you as a European sign onto a company website outside the EU to buy something, I can assure you no extra tax will be assessed other than shipping fees.

Also, anyone who has a US server account can rest easy knowing Mythic will not collect this tax since companies in US dont bother to screen their customers origins for purposes of tax-collection.

 

[Jupitus]

Originally posted by old.Glendower
LOL!

Good luck trying to collect that tax from individuals!

You think any company in the US or outside the EU gives a shiit about some Euro tax? Why should they bother to even collect it?

The only ones who will try to collect this are ones actively marketing in conjunction with Euro companies. If you as a European sign onto a company website outside the EU to buy something, I can assure you no extra tax will be assessed other than shipping fees.

Also, anyone who has a US server account can rest easy knowing Mythic will not collect this tax since companies in US dont bother to screen their customers origins for purposes of tax-collection.

So why then, smarty-pants, are SOE charging /collecting the tax for Planetside? They are US-based, after all....

 

[old.Maronan]

Just because they are collecting the tax from you, doesn't mean they are paying it to EU...

 

[Sarnat]

You think some company can just say "fuck you EU we don't pay your tax"? Their game servers would go down faster than Solid's pants in a gay bar.

 

[ning]

Originally posted by old.Maronan
Just because they are collecting the tax from you, doesn't mean they are paying it to EU...

have you anything to prove what you say ?

 

[old.Glendower]

Originally posted by Jupitus
So why then, smarty-pants, are SOE charging /collecting the tax for Planetside? They are US-based, after all....

Well, let's see...

1) You were stupid enough to tell them where you really live and/or signed up through an EU-promoted website.

2) You failed to go into the US-based site and sign up there.

If you read the law, it is fairly plain that it has nothing to do with US companies selling things/services in their own territories. The EU has zero authority in the US after all, and cant force any of the companies here to do jack shiit. Anybody with even a bit of imagination can easily circumvent this.

Oh, and Sarnat... Exactly how can the EU enforce this tax on US servers? Say EQ for one? They cant do a damn thing. How will the government even know you have an EQ account? Think about the ramifications.

Edit: typos

 

[chretien]

You've missed the point Glendower. The law is for those companies selling goods or services in the EU not individuals in the EU who buy those products or services.
If the products were sold in a shop the company would have to pay tax on them, the law here just applies the same rules to internet services. And if a company doesn't pay what it owes then it is breaking the law and I think you'll find that they **can** be held accountable for it in a US court. Wake up, there's a world beyond your shores.

 

[old.Glendower]

No, YOU missed the point...since that is EXACTLY what I said in my first post. Go read it.

However, you are also mistaken if you are saying the COMPANY pays the VAT...obviously it is the INDIVIDUAL paying it and the company simply collects the tax and then forwards it to the governmnet. So, boxed games sold in the shop pay other taxes to enter the country and be distributed but "value-added tax" is a burden the end consumer bears. So it is rather interesting that this law purports to do one thing and actually does another, but so what else is new in governments? If they actually wanted companies to pay, they would simply charge them a liscence fee or something.

My OTHER point is that the EU CANNOT force US companies to collect their VAT tax. Certainly not in US courts where that law and taxing agent has no authority. I suppose you could try and file over there, but doubt you would get much headway since the main offices of Sony are in the US, as are the actual game servers.

You obviously dont know jack about US law, and I do. Not only do I have a degree in Administration of Justice, but litigation at the federal level is a hobby of mine. EU taxing authority doesn't even have legal standing to bring any such suit in the courts here.

Internet service would be provided locally in your country, and could thus be sanctioned for failing to pay a tax.... a "service", such as a game, that is run entirely here in the US is beyond the reach of the EU constabulary aside from voluntary participation by the company.

All you have to do when you sign up for a service in the US to get around the tax is lie and say you live in US, Canada, or any other non-EU country. Do you REALLY think Sony or anyone else is going to spend $$$$ verifying all the routes of payment and then trying to prove someone comes from a VAT country??? That is absurd.

 

[ning]

Originally posted by old.Glendower
No, YOU missed the point...since that is EXACTLY what I said in my first post. Go read it.

However, you are also mistaken if you are saying the COMPANY pays the VAT...obviously it is the INDIVIDUAL paying it and the company simply collects the tax and then forwards it to the governmnet. So, boxed games sold in the shop pay other taxes to enter the country and be distributed but "value-added tax" is a burden the end consumer bears. So it is rather interesting that this law purports to do one thing and actually does another, but so what else is new in governments? If they actually wanted companies to pay, they would simply charge them a liscence fee or something.

My OTHER point is that the EU CANNOT force US companies to collect their VAT tax. Certainly not in US courts where that law and taxing agent has no authority. I suppose you could try and file over there, but doubt you would get much headway since the main offices of Sony are in the US, as are the actual game servers.

You obviously dont know jack about US law, and I do. Not only do I have a degree in Administration of Justice, but litigation at the federal level is a hobby of mine. EU taxing authority doesn't even have legal standing to bring any such suit in the courts here.

Internet service would be provided locally in your country, and could thus be sanctioned for failing to pay a tax.... a "service", such as a game, that is run entirely here in the US is beyond the reach of the EU constabulary aside from voluntary participation by the company.

All you have to do when you sign up for a service in the US to get around the tax is lie and say you live in US, Canada, or any other non-EU country. Do you REALLY think Sony or anyone else is going to spend $$$$ verifying all the routes of payment and then trying to prove someone comes from a VAT country??? That is absurd.

So if US firms don't pay VAT tax, why do they speak about it ? To lose european curstomers ?

 

[Jupitus]

Originally posted by old.Glendower
here to do jack shiit.

Originally posted by old.Glendower
Edit: typos

Attention to detail is a wonderful thing

Originally posted by old.Glendower
the main offices of Sony are in the US, as are the actual game servers.

Server is in the Netherlands, Mr Smarty-Pants

 

[old.Glendower]

It is called "lip service" over here. That means that they pretend to go along with it, but only put forth minimal effort in oder to appear to be good citizens, cover their asses legally (on the cheap, btw), etc.

Just to hire a lawyer to walk into a court and say "These guys dont have jurisdiction and/or legal standing". And even to have the Court immediately agree is EXPENSIVE.

As I say, they certainly arent going to bother to investigate any subscribers.

What they will do is say:

"See? Thes folks all declared when they signed up for our service that they are not from an EU country, so we couldn't collect the tax from them"

The obverse being:

"All right, (X) number of persons subscribing said they were from EU countries and we have collected VAT from them...here you go."

Frankly, I am sure they will be surprised and annoyed if people are stupid enough not to lie about where they live....then Sony has to incurr an expense to account for and forward the tax, see?

I doubt that talking about collecting a 17.5% tax is going to bring them additional business

However, it is important to note that it is NOT the company paying any VAT, it is the CUSTOMER.

Edit: Oh, and Jupitus, the main servers for EQ are in LA, which was the example I gave and was clarified with specifiing "servers in the US", smartass. Learn to read and comprehend.

Also, I deliberately misspell the common slang term for excrement to get around filters of various sorts, so that isn't a typo. I guess that is just so obvious it passed you by, eh?

Oh, here's a link to Sony info:

http://www.sony.com/SCA/corporate.shtml

I see no mention of Planetside being based in the Netherlands. Mind putting up a link to your information?

I suppose I should clarify for the nit-pickers a bit by saying that the EQ servers, etc are operated by Verant and 989 Studios which are subsidiaries of Sony main, and that THEY have their headquarters and servers in LA (a generic term for the huge megalopolis of southern California).

 

[Jupitus]

Originally posted by old.Glendower
Edit: Oh, and Jupitus, the main servers for EQ are in LA, which was the example I gave and was clarified with specifiing "servers in the US", smartass. Learn to read and comprehend.

But I thought, no I am sure, that you said:

"My OTHER point is that the EU CANNOT force US companies to collect their VAT tax. Certainly not in US courts where that law and taxing agent has no authority. I suppose you could try and file over there, but doubt you would get much headway since the main offices of Sony are in the US, as are the actual game servers."

The words 'as are the actual game servers' implying that the game servers were in the US, which the server I play on is not. It's in the Netherlands, and no I won't give you a link specifying that. You are the smarty-pants around here so I'll let you do proper research to find out.

Originally posted by old.Glendower
Also, I deliberately misspell the common slang term for excrement to get around filters of various sorts, so that isn't a typo. I guess that is just so obvious it passed you by, eh?

Didn't pass me by whatsoever, but I did thnk that you had posted enough shit on these boards by now to know that shit wouldn't be filtered. I guess that must have passed you by amidst all the other shit you post.

Goodnight

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by old.Glendower
Dear fluckling Lord... my willy is getting smaller and smaller. Someone shoot me, please.

Edit: because of the fluckling filter.

 

[Jupitus]

Don't be silly Uncle Sick, even you and I know he would have said 'Dear fluckling' Lord to get around the filters!

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by Jupitus
Don't be silly Uncle Sick, even you and I know he would have said 'Dear fluckling' Lord to get around the filters!

Excrement! That must have been the dumbest excuse I've ever seen on these boards...

 

[Sarnat]

Originally posted by old.Glendower
My OTHER point is that the EU CANNOT force US companies to collect their VAT tax. Certainly not in US courts where that law and taxing agent has no authority. I suppose you could try and file over there, but doubt you would get much headway since the main offices of Sony are in the US, as are the actual game servers.

Ever heard of World Trade Organization etc? And EU could simply forbid them to sell their service to any EU country. Or in the case of Sony, they'd fine Sony Europe with a fat fine. You know, companies out there really do follow the law because if they don't they end up in deep shit a la Enron etc (which was a little different type of thing but still).

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by old.Glendower

Also, I deliberately misspell the common slang term for excrement to get around filters of various sorts, so that isn't a typo. I guess that is just so obvious it passed you by, eh?

Oh... ask your wife to uninstall NetNanny on your computer again.
BW doesn't have any swear filters installed.

Fucking LOL.

 

[chretien]

Here's a couple of links Mr Hobbyist Lawyer.

clickety

clickety

If I were you (and I thank everything I hold sacred that I'm not), I'd be a little less inclined to jump in with the attitude malfunction in future...

 

[ssera]

Originally posted by old.Glendower
All you have to do when you sign up for a service in the US to get around the tax is lie and say you live in US, Canada, or any other non-EU country. Do you REALLY think Sony or anyone else is going to spend $$$$ verifying all the routes of payment and then trying to prove someone comes from a VAT country??? That is absurd

Right, I'm assuming you're a rl lawyer (you got the degree pretty weird if you don't actually use it...) and you know lots about US law. What you're telling us Europeans is the lie so we don't get burdended with the tax. I can live with that but just thought it funny comming from a lawyer, out of interest do you tell everyone you meet to lie to get what they want...?

hmm you wouldn't happen to know/be George W. Bush...?

Anyway like someone above said, the WTO would just dump on said company and make them pay. I'm pretty sure I saw on the news a few weeks back a US company getting fined loads by the WTO for something they did wrong in the EU. Pretty vague I know but was a long time

 

[old.Glendower]

Sick, the filters cant be turned off for others in DAoC, and that is the game we are all playing here right? As usual, you are just bypassing the logical answer in your never ending quest to be a petty, annoying, dickhead with nothing intellectual to contribute to the discussion.

Woot! you succeed again!

Get back to your wage-slave "career" that you hate so much and quit dumping your spleen here.

chretien:

Thanks for the links, but if you read them, they do raise the same legal issues I do, and the person calls the program "pie in the sky", and says they see no firm way of enforcement. Also, it is quite clear from reading the embedded link to the story about AOL that the EU is rather a toothless tiger on the matter.

So thanks for documenting each point I have made in this thread and them some from the Euro perspective.

Even so, why dont you do some research from the US law side? This stuff will never win in courts here since the corporations that run America have too much control, and have for some time.

For one, all they have to do is subsidiarize the selling agent (like Sony Online Entertainment become a separate US-only company in its own right) and have them wholly contained in the US. For another, many already are.

DAoC has the american servers for instance, and if you sign on an account there, you will not pay the VAT.

And if you want less attitude, maybe you should look to your own smartass remarks as the start of it? Or are you just unconciously insulting?


Sarnat:
The WTO has no jurisdiction over this sort of thing. It isn't a trade issue, but rather a local tax issue. Also, you might have noticed that GW Idiot and his cronies tend to ignore the WTO and do what they want. Steel tariffs, for instance, or softwood from Canada.

Also, they couldn't necessarily fine Sony Europe for actions taken by SOE in California USA (which is where Planetside and Everquest and SWG are all located) because they are separate companies. That would be like trying to fine GOA for Mythic selling US accounts to EU citizens. Depends on the corporate structure of course.

The EU can try and forbid anything they want, but realistically, how could they possibly enforce it? If you log onto the web, go to a company webby in the US and then buy something... Then what? How would the taxing authority KNOW you did that unless you TOLD them? DO you WANT them kicking down your door and arresting you for online "services" you bought?

ssera:
Since I live in the country with the highest incarceration rates in the world (739 per 100,000), and whose idiot president uses our tax money to fund his private and illegal wars; yes, I think people should lie to the authorities (and especially to private corporations like Sony...this isnt an application for public aid or anything, you know ) as much as possible when their own privacy and money is concerned. By all means, if you think this is a fair tax and WANT to pay it, please do.

But no, I am not a lawyer, I work with the legal system, so there is a bit of a difference. For instance, I do a lot of research and paper filings at various agencies for those guys and then they stand up in court and use it. I cannot legally represent someone in a court for the big bucks, and they can. I spent maybe 3 years getting my degree and a Juris Doctor in law takes MUCH longer and cost LOTS more.

However, the most frequently given advice I see lawyers give is; "Keep your mouth SHUT! DONT talk to the authorities, and DONT volunteer information."

But it is worth noting the idea that levying a fine and actually collecting it in the end are two different things.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by old.Glendower
Sick, the filters cant be turned off for others in DAoC, and that is the game we are all playing here right? As usual, you are just bypassing the logical answer in your never ending quest to be a petty, annoying, dickhead with nothing intellectual to contribute to the discussion.

Woot! you succeed again!

Get back to your wage-slave "career" that you hate so much and quit dumping your spleen here.

Hehe... coming up with "witty" ways to bypass some in-game swear filter isn't petty, right?

Oh, fluck GOA! No wait, fluck the shipheads at Mythic. Or just fluck off, you retarded *non filtered* c\/ntweasel.

There - that took some effort.

Logical answer to what? Your usual inane drivel?
Oh - w00t - by the way - when did I state that I hated my job?
gifv quote, please, prof. Smart.

But no, I am not a lawyer, I work with the legal system, so there is a bit of a difference.

... like a parole officer?

You really are a classic case of foad... now go and make it so.