Police set to step up hacking of home PCs

[kirennia]

aye Kir, but in your example, it's no longer random...
some form of profiling/suspecion has been established, even if it might be
crude at best.

Not going to trawl up an old thread...can't remember the name of it However, you remember the one where a woman was followed for 7 days by the police following neighbours allegations for her not scooping up dog crap?

If you disregard whether or not she actually did it, the police still did that following the word of the neighbour. Add in the fact that everyone at some point of their life will come across at least SOME sort of instance whereby they're accused of doing something, this is just another means of invading privacy.

In my view, if the police come around to my house suspecting me of terrorism because some idiot saw me having a fire on a beach, I'd be angry but I'd still let them in as I don't have anything to hide. My name is however permanently on the system so the next time a terrorist allegation (which lets face it, even though VERY small numbers die of terrorism in the UK yearly, it's still a hot topic/excuse), you'd be called up and monitored again and again. Bye bye privacy permanently. Call me paranoid but finger prints are kept permanently even if you're found innocent of a crime, why would this be any different?


It's just another step along the road...

 

[Olgaline]

Ok but I'm confused what your point of argument is ?
or maybe you've misunderstood me ?

the way I see it, any invasion of privacy be it your living room or as in this case your computer should follow the same proceedings as any other warrent,

wich is
A: brought on by resonable suspecion and
B: warrented by a court appointed judge.


wont davel into how secret services operate, such a MI6, CIA, PET ect as that is in many ways a different ball game all together.

I've never heard of your examlpe, but it sounds a daft waste of public servants to my ears.

 

[kirennia]

the way I see it, any invasion of privacy be it your living room or as in this case your computer should follow the same proceedings as any other warrent,

wich is
A: brought on by resonable suspecion and
B: warrented by a court appointed judge.


wont davel into how secret services operate, such a MI6, CIA, PET ect as that is in many ways a different ball game all together.

My beef is that with a house search, you'll of course know that it's happened. With this method, no court order is required, only suspision of partaking in a crime which could lead to a 3+ year jail sentence... unless I missed a step somewhere? Also, you wont ever know if your personal information has been targetted, nor just how much has been kept aside/recorded...

As for the dog crap case, it was the police who did it on the authority of the local council iirc.

 

[Lamp]

I wouldn't like it, but I could cope with it. What I am against is some twat then leaving the disk of inforrmation on a train/underground service or whatever.

Well said

 

[Bullitt]

Take your point completely but

1. What have you got to hide ? Personal financial information ? Sure its personal and confidential, but what you earn, how much tax you've paid (or not paid), what you have in your savings and checking accounts - all this can be found out in minutes. Illegal films / games / music ? Government couldn't give a shit about those. Porn ? Again, they couldn't care less unless its kiddie stuff.

2. What are you going to do about it. Any software you can buy to secure or encrypt your system can be easily bypassed.


Its like National ID cards. Everyone's going to have to have one. If you've done nothing wrong you've got nothing to worry about.

These are the funniest kind of argument against this type of Government legislation. And it can be easily countered with one question:

Do you trust your government? If you would answer yes, do you trust the next government? Or the one after that? And after that?

The point being once it's there it'll be hard to remove. And whilst intentions are fine and dandy now they can easily be used maliciously by future powers - which we simply cannot predict.

 

[Olgaline]

My beef is that with a house search, you'll of course know that it's happened. With this method, no court order is required, only suspision of partaking in a crime which could lead to a 3+ year jail sentence... unless I missed a step somewhere? Also, you wont ever know if your personal information has been targetted, nor just how much has been kept aside/recorded...

As for the dog crap case, it was the police who did it on the authority of the local council iirc.

so you agree with me, then why the quotation argument?

 

[Imgormiel]

I think you will find that Olga is right, despite the snooping on your pc, they still need a warrant to enter your home and another one to cease the computer in the first place if they have grounds to do so, which again is questionable.

 

[Corran]

tthey need a warrent to come in and cease your computer, but it seems they can just use what they retrieve as evidence without needing to cease the pc at all. Easy to fake evidence if that the case.

And as for RIPA legislation being watched over carefully, i call bullshit. I used RIPA legislation to carry out covert survellience on many occasions when personnaly i didnt think that it should have been authorised... you know how the departments get away with it, especially councils? The person that is authorising the surviellance does not actually understand the legislation and just signs the request without even reading it.... so do i have faith in the protection? not in the slightest.... especially when personal data being left all over the place on a near monthly bases by "officials"

 

[Billargh]

they going to start selling our details on ebay to make up for lost tax revenue?

Nah, they'll lose them on the train before the auctions expires

then they would be breaking the law...
and therefore anything they find cant be used. but there's no way of proofing it, just have to trust in their common courtesy

Wouldn't this be illegal if they began hacking home pc's? And if they've got the go ahead for that seems different people, different laws.

 

[Chronictank]

The CAN do it currently but they need a warrant, which means they need reasonable suspicion to do it

Lamp, can you answer WHY they need to look at your pc without a legitimate cause?

I don't have any faith in the competance of the police or government in keeping my data private, that is why this is a complete joke.
As mentioned previously it also is in conflict with "innocent until proven guilty" concept which underlines British law

 

[Corran]

officially, with the RIPA (or RIPSA if in scotland), you still need suspecion there. Just the level of evidence required will be a lot less then if needing a court issued warrent because the authorising officer probably will be more lax on what will accept.

 

[Bahumat]

I had one of those MI5 agents trying to hack my machine. He was outside my house and all I could do to stop him was ejaculate in his eye!

Got him good and proper

 

[Chronictank]

I had one of those MI5 agents trying to hack my machine. He was outside my house and all I could do to stop him was ejaculate in his eye!

Got him good and proper

be honest you only found out he was from MI5 after you shot your load

 

[liloe]

2. What are you going to do about it. Any software you can buy to secure or encrypt your system can be easily bypassed.

You're half right, you can get that software for free HD encryption can NOT be bypassed that easily nowadays, not even with giant clusters. Now given that you're using a good password with a good length and a lot of nice symbols, those who steal your data will have a lot of fun trying out a few billion possibilities.

 

[Ormorof]

The point being once it's there it'll be hard to remove. And whilst intentions are fine and dandy now they can easily be used maliciously by future powers - which we simply cannot predict.

which is why it hurts me a little inside when you see opposition politicians half-heartedly trying to stop it, they dont want to get rid of it, they want that kind of power when its their turn to take charge! bastards the lot of them


(can you tell i dont trust politicians? )

 

[liloe]

…oh and what I forgot.

The point is the following:

My OS: original
My CDs: originals
My DVDs: originals
My software: original or freeware
My games: originals

I have nothing to hide, but why should I let the government enter my own privacy sphere. My computer is a part of my home and my life and it is my own personal decision what I share and what not.

After all: Are you doing illegal things in your kitchen? No? I guess you know where I'm going but this is exactly what I've been preaching for a long time.

Nowadays, people throw around with personal data, it's not even fun anymore. People not using the BCC in mails, people exposing their private life on community webites without any kind of suspicion, people even give their names and addresses to have some kind of "win a whatever" bullshit. Sorry for my words, but it winds me up to see how careless people are becoming.

The worst argument besides "I have nothing to hide" is: "…but if it's for our own security." … NO!

May I quote the Declaration of Human Rights?

Article 12
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

So first of all, randomly scanning people is illegal AND a wrong argument for security. Everybody who thinks the government is taking the right steps, ask yourself the following question: "Am I stupid enough to believe, that those who want to be criminal won't find ways to work around everything?"

Let's even get a step more provocative. Who's freedom is worth more? My freedom of privacy or some gangster's freedom of privacy?

Now let me quote again:

Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

As harsh as it may seem, but if you want the law to work for you, you have to accept it works the same way for others as well.

In my opinion, the government abuses the fact that a lot of people have no idea how the systems they use really work and fuel the fire of fear of terrorism/violence/etc. to get a better insight about people's lives. Such actions by the government should be torpedoed as much as we all can, because if you ask me, it's an exorbitance to do such a thing. The government is supposed to help its citicens and not to suspect, abuse and control them all.

Sure, they're already trying to do it, but then at least protect your data as much as you can.

 

[Chronictank]

…oh and what I forgot.



Sure, they're already trying to do it, but then at least protect your data as much as you can.

rep

 

[Access Denied]

What, Echelon isn't enough? It already intercepts every phone call, email, fax, IM and text in the world, now they want to intrude on our privacy? Granted I'm all for anti-terrorism but this goes to far. Regardless of whether or not you've got something to hide. They need a warrant to search your house so it shouldn't be allowed, just get a warrant to come and get your computer and subject it to forensic examination.

 

[Zebolt]

Any 14 year old geek clued up on hacking can easily bypass your crappy firewalls if he wants to. You think you're secure ? Think again

2. What are you going to do about it. Any software you can buy to secure or encrypt your system can be easily bypassed.

Have you ever heard of RSA with 1024 and 2048 bit keys? Think again

 

[Ezteq]

I don't care if they want to snoop through my pc, so long as they don't foul anything on here up I really don't care. What I do mind is some spotty 15 year old git giving me a trojan and then selling my online banking details to some family of gits in Nigeria who then go and but loads of IKIA furnature with my hard earned and pretty much non-existant cash.

People want to spy on me fine, it's their time their wasting...they're the ones liable to die of boredom not me. This is why I am not in the least bit concerned about identity cards or the DNA database, tbh if someone stole my identity I'd just repost the numa numa video and they'd soon beg me to take it back. I am dull, I would like to be internationally interesting and mysterious but in reality I am (as I am sure most of you are...though you don't want to admit it) a normal boring person, I don't do things that require secure telephone lines or conversations in dark parking lots where the other person calls me deepthroat and smokes a cigar while shining a torch in me face, hell generally it's pretty bloody unusual to find me out of the sodding house after 21:00...to expand upon that generally it's unusual not to find me in bed in my boring pyjamas reading a non-politically controversial book and ready to fall asleep.

The only reason people have, the only genuine reason aside from being an international master criminal or sad dirty pedo that is, for not wanting people to be able to snoop on them is because they are embarrassed at how normal they actually are and think that if they scream loud enough about privicy someone might mistake them for someone who actually has a shadowy and mysterious personal life...rather than the reality where the hardcore secrets they are protecting are a bit of weed in their sock draw, a few copies of playboy under the bed, some pirate dvds (and I don't mean the johnny depp ones), maybe an ammusingly shaped "adult toy" or two and a replica sword they brought off ebay for £7.99.

 

[Chronictank]

@ez it isnt about whether you have something to hide
its about them being able to look through your personal files without having any reason to
CUrrently they can legally seize your pc anyway but need a warrant, so i dont see why there is a need for the new legistlation

 

[Ezteq]

yes ...i know, and as I said I don't care. They're going to do it no matter how much we all piss and moan about it and tbh i've got other stuff to worry about than whether some bored policeman is snooping thorugh my pc becoming even more bored from reading my boring course work.

you might all be worried and furious and insensed by it but i'm not...and that is my human right and no one can take that away from me




so stop trying to make me worry!!!

 

[Thorwyn]

It´s amazing how freely people are giving away basic rights that took us centuries and millions of lives to establish and how they trust a government that obviously doesn´t trust them.

 

[CorNokZ]

It's amazing.. Every time you post here on FH Thor, you are 100% correct imo

If I could I would just keep repping you

 

[Mey]

Well tbh, they won't just go searching through everyones computer will nilly, it's just a weapon in their arsenal to use against people they have a feeling are doing something dodgy.

 

[Cadelin]

Well tbh, they won't just go searching through everyones computer will nilly, it's just a weapon in their arsenal to use against people they have a feeling are doing something dodgy.

Yes they will. If you give the government the power to search anyones computer without reason then that will happen. Maybe not straight away but it will eventually start getting abused.

A recent example was when Icelandic banks were classified as terrorist organisations and had their assests frozen because they had gone bankrupt.

BBC NEWS | Politics | Icelandic anger at UK terror move

Iceland bank freeze 'used anti-terror laws' - politics.co.uk

Bloomberg.com: U.K. & Ireland


In general governments can not be trusted to work in good faith. You may trust this Government but can you be sure you will trust the next one or the one after? There is nothing wrong with having laws to search computers of terror suspects but there needs to be some safe guards that the searches will only ever be carried out the way that they were originally intended.

 

[liloe]

Spoiler

yes ...i know, and as I said I don't care. They're going to do it no matter how much we all piss and moan about it and tbh i've got other stuff to worry about than whether some bored policeman is snooping thorugh my pc becoming even more bored from reading my boring course work.

you might all be worried and furious and insensed by it but i'm not...and that is my human right and no one can take that away from me




so stop trying to make me worry!!!

Read my post again Ez, it's like Chronic and Thor already said. The government is not trying to do anything helpful with that law. All they do is slowly work their way forward to more control over their citizens.

Public cameras are already in place. Computer sniffing is something a lot of people don't mind. So the question basically is: What next?

With that you can stalk the average citizen better than you think. No need to send anyone to check what you do, simply read your agenda on the computer and then proceed to looking into the right cams. Letting aside the money part, all this is knowledge which the state doesn't even need of you.

Do you want that some total stranger knows what you do? Like "oh nice, she's gonna have sex with that dude over there again". How much can you trust the people who get the information of you?

Let's imagine a very simple situation with the example above. Somebody snoops around on your computer and finds out you're cheating on your husband every monday. He takes a cam, waits there and makes a few photos, which then either go to your husband or to you for some blackmailing.

…and that's only private abuse. Who guarantees you, that the government won't use the information they get to make their next electoral campaign much better? With information about where which kind of voter goes etc.

It's already frightening enough, with which precision advertising can be placed, so I say no thanks to more specific information about people.

Not enough reasons to be against it already?

Keep in mind that everything you store on your computeris (more or less) logical for you. Now imagine someone else reads it and thinks, there are some kind of "illegal approaches" in there. Soon after, the police rings your bell and even if it's only for a few questions at the police station, the next time you will think about what you store on your computer.
What happens is a general mistrust against every form of digital storage connected to the internet, because of the fear of being spyed on.

Sorry, but personally I don't like the idea of walking down the street, knowing that my whole life might be exposed to some of the people who meet me.

Besides that, nowadays encryption is so good, that everybody can store their illegal things safely on an encrypted hard drive, which basically means that the sniffing of computers will affect everyday users who "have nothing to hide" anyways. Now someone tell me again that this measure will be good for crime fighting.

It´s amazing how freely people are giving away basic rights that took us centuries and millions of lives to establish and how they trust a government that obviously doesn´t trust them.

I wish I could rep you and Chronic more :<

 

[old.Tohtori]

It´s amazing how freely people are giving away basic rights that took us centuries and millions of lives to establish and how they trust a government that obviously doesn´t trust them.

Tell that to the vikings

Bloody christians....

Anyway, to liloe, when you get connected to the internet, you stop being private.

It's like saying "i want my privacy! But let me open all my windows and doors."

I'm not saying they should be able to do this, but talking about privacy on a public forum is a bit oxymoronic

 

[Huntingtons]

trust is earned, apparently the government earns trust very easy according to many here.
luckily my trust is like hardest chick to nail

 

[Ctuchik]

Any 14 year old geek clued up on hacking can easily bypass your crappy firewalls if he wants to. You think you're secure ? Think again

it doesent take all that much work to keep the 14 year old wannabies out.

the vast majority of them use some kind of easy to get hack program to do all the work for them, and most firewall programmers know about them and can block them.

sure if they are persistant enough i suppose they COULD get through, but what 14 year old today have that ammount of patience? after an hour they are so bored they kill themself.

and the EXTREME few kids that do have the patience are usually to smart to go for the average joes PC. they hack something worthwhile insted. like Iphone and shit