Please Dont ADD ffs!

[Boggy]

and again a proven winning combination of classes wont win vs any half decent gg who played to together since quiet a while.
you still make it sound like it would be the classes that make a group opted, it WRONG, just horribly wrong and naive.

Your problem is you are trying to prove a point and ignoring certain obvious facts, such as:

1) For people with identical skill levels, winning is easier in an opted group than in a random group.

2) The people who are most focused on winning are the people who opt their groups. There is a reason for this - opting makes winning more likely

3) An opted group is called "opt[imis]ed" because it means "best suited to 8 man combat".

I think you REALLY need to admit the rather obvious fact that if you balance and opt your group you make ALL fights easier. A fight opted vs random is easier. A fight opted vs regular GG is easier. A fight opted vs opted is easier.

This is a rather lengthy explanation of what I meant when I talked about it being less of a challenge to win when you stack the deck in your own favour.

i cant see how you can call it winning in a realm BG, its a "win" when forces are even.

This comment is glib and meaningless, since your definition of "even" is entirely arbitrary and - in my opinion - wrong. How is a fight even when one side has a whole host of abilities the other side does not have?

about the realm-wide view and adding well it might be a good idea to consider that the game is about having fun as an individum, you dont fight for arthur beeing proud of you, you know?

The fighting for Arthur thing is not what I meant by realm-wide view. You arrive at that conclusion because your thinking has been done for you by all the posts you've already read on this subject.

When I say I take a realm-wide view, what I mean is that I recognise that there are disproportionate amounts of some classes in the realm, and also that the realm has classes that do not fit in an opted set up.

The best chance we have as a REALM of ALL having our fair share of fun is if the market is free flowing. If we tie up key classes like bards and druids in GGs, and suck all the high RR people out of the random arena, we are lowering the chance of random groups forming reasonable balances and therefore inhibiting the ability of others to have fun.

It's ironic really that people who do this also seem like the first people to complain about someone else inhibiting their own fun by adding. I suppose it's all about perspective. If you are focused on your self enough to ignore the rest of the realm's desire to have fun, you're probably just the sort of person who will demand that others play by rules aimed at making YOUR gaming more fun regardless of how it affects them.

oh and btw you shouldn´t talk about making opted groups beeing so easy and rvr beeing easier when you never tried it, you just make yourself sound clueless.

So you think there is some kind of chance that rvr would be harder in an opted group than in a random group? Silly clueless old me didn't consider that possibility.

 

[Straef]

So you think there is some kind of chance that rvr would be harder in an opted group than in a random group? Silly clueless old me didn't consider that possibility.

Well, it could be harder if you concider the leet group members bitching at you a dificulty, but other than that... :/

 

[daoc_xianghua]

Your problem is you are trying to prove a point and ignoring certain obvious facts, such as:

1) For people with identical skill levels, winning is easier in an opted group than in a random group.

2) The people who are most focused on winning are the people who opt their groups. There is a reason for this - opting makes winning more likely

3) An opted group is called "opt[imis]ed" because it means "best suited to 8 man combat".

I think you REALLY need to admit the rather obvious fact that if you balance and opt your group you make ALL fights easier. A fight opted vs random is easier. A fight opted vs regular GG is easier. A fight opted vs opted is easier.

This is a rather lengthy explanation of what I meant when I talked about it being less of a challenge to win when you stack the deck in your own favour.




This comment is glib and meaningless, since your definition of "even" is entirely arbitrary and - in my opinion - wrong. How is a fight even when one side has a whole host of abilities the other side does not have?



The fighting for Arthur thing is not what I meant by realm-wide view. You arrive at that conclusion because your thinking has been done for you by all the posts you've already read on this subject.

When I say I take a realm-wide view, what I mean is that I recognise that there are disproportionate amounts of some classes in the realm, and also that the realm has classes that do not fit in an opted set up.

The best chance we have as a REALM of ALL having our fair share of fun is if the market is free flowing. If we tie up key classes like bards and druids in GGs, and suck all the high RR people out of the random arena, we are lowering the chance of random groups forming reasonable balances and therefore inhibiting the ability of others to have fun.

It's ironic really that people who do this also seem like the first people to complain about someone else inhibiting their own fun by adding. I suppose it's all about perspective. If you are focused on your self enough to ignore the rest of the realm's desire to have fun, you're probably just the sort of person who will demand that others play by rules aimed at making YOUR gaming more fun regardless of how it affects them.



So you think there is some kind of chance that rvr would be harder in an opted group than in a random group? Silly clueless old me didn't consider that possibility.

ofc its easier in 1fg opted than in 1fg random, guess why ppl do it, cuz they want the best available equip/abilitys. but when those randoms start to run in 3.4.5 groups now, an opted group has no chance to win anymore i.e. easy way to "win"

there are 2 types of ppl in this game
-those who go rvr, get owned and go like wtf fuckin elitists killed us in 30 secs with their uber fotm RR/equip/MLs, i´m gonna zerg them to oblivion now qq

-and those who go rvr, get owned and start to analyze why they lost and how they can do better next time.

2nd kind of ppl will improve their own skill + teamplay over the time and will beat the best groups someday when their skill/teamplay has reached an high enuff lvl.

the first type of ppl will rot in the zergs, doomed to get 20rp per kill and never have a chance to have a significant impact on the outgoing of the battle, nor will he ever use the full utility of his class to level anywhere near to what a player of the 2nd type of ppl could do.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Lets take a real world example a second boggy to try and explain why ggs and opteds are a GOOD thing.

Ok in the real world military you have three different types of forces.

Reservists (called up in an emergency,mediocre training comparatively)
Regulars (your bulk of troops, reasnobly well trained)
Special Forces (small numbers but high impact, good training)

Now apply this to daoc and youll see it fits perfectly:

Reservists - New players, pve'ers with no interest in rvr, sub 50's etc.
Regulars - the average rvr player, does well, has numbers to make up for their weaknesses.
Special Forces (gg's/opteds) - They know the game and the classes and how to play tactically and use the terrain,decoys (usually), and also have access to the best items/rrs etc.

You put a reservist in a spec forces unit you make it weaker unless its an exceptionally good reservist.Same deal with daoc - youre as good a group as your weakest player, no better.

How do you get from a reservist to a special forces player?You practise and get the items you need and the understanding of the game required.If you dont have the time or ability (and theres no shame in not having either) to put into this then its the same deal, you dont make it in usually.

Hope that made sense my brain is fried.
Btw wasnt trying to sound cool with the spec forces players comments its just an analogy.

 

[Maeloch]

Well, some of this stuff rests on the fact the game is about fair fights, which is wrong. In fact it's about nothing, nothing except what u make of it. A certain proportion of the game thinks that's what it's about and gl to them, but it's just an opinion. If you spend your time whining and complaining what everyone else does...i tend to think that's what the games about more for you than actually playing.

Taking the same strict view of the way GGs behave as some are taking over adding, you could easily say they have done as much or more to fuck up the enjoyment out the game for many people as adding, I'm thinking mainly of OF. I remember many times peeps planning or arranging 'RvR events' on prydewn...peeps would sign up, sometimes a week in advance, for 2-3fg to retake keeps or just go zerg emain a bit. What would normally happen is they would get farmed by some GG within 7 minutes b4 even reaching emain. Then farmed 15mins later. Then farmed 15mins later. Maybe they would get there in the end but normally would start quitting after 1.5hrs. wtf is that but ruining the game for a large amout of peeps who set the evening aside for some casual fun? It was just depressing. ofc GGs could leave them alone if they wanted, and 'respect their playstyle' but did they ever fuck - they'd get farmed.

Now, I don't say two wrongs make a right, but give 2yrs or so of this and it's hardly suprising peeps might seem a deaf to whine about adding, now the tables seems to have turned a little in NF and soloers and randoms can rampage all over the place.

Sometimes it was almost impossible to have fun (go HW instead and 2fg savages running about), but u could work around it (eg play off peak, go attack renaris and pull some other randoms, etc). Bottom line tho', only way of coping with GGs if u couldn't run in one urself was to avoid them. A bit like some peeps are suggesting GGs do if they don't want adds but get shot down.

And I don't think there's owt clever about adding, I just do it to peeps I don't like/have a big mouth (hello 'fuck off adding' peeps).

 

[stupeh]

If we tie up key classes like bards and druids in GGs, and suck all the high RR people out of the random arena, we are lowering the chance of random groups forming reasonable balances and therefore inhibiting the ability of others to have fun.

Err, so first you're telling GGs to go somewhere else if they want no adding, now you're saying don't be opted and move to another area, because then random groups won't have fun? Which is it...

 

[Boggy]

I ain't telling GGs to do anything. I've said I think it's as valid a way to play as any other.

My comment was an explanation of what I meant by realm-wide, since Xian thought I meant something about King Arthur.

 

[Boggy]

there are 2 types of ppl in this game
-those who go rvr, get owned and go like wtf fuckin elitists killed us in 30 secs with their uber fotm RR/equip/MLs, i´m gonna zerg them to oblivion now qq

-and those who go rvr, get owned and start to analyze why they lost and how they can do better next time.

I sincerely doubt that most zergs happen that way. From what I see they either happen through some specific event (like a keep being retaken then the BG heading to roam) or they happen by accident.

I would aslo think there is more variance in player type than you imagine. Most of the people I play with could be described us:

- people who go rvr, get owned, release and retry. Occasionally band with a second group is our class spread is unusually poor or only enemies around are RR10+

Regarding the military analogy, I take your point. However, there are some key differences that kinda prevent it being applied, such as:

- Military units are deployed from a central command. You'd not get special forces units saying "I ain't helping take that key installation cos it ain't fun, let the reservists do it".

- Military resources are planned. You don't get people saying "we don't have a medical corps support on this one cos everyone wanted to be tanks" (hoho )

- and I can't really see a special forces unit saying "WTF is the big idea joining in to help us win that battle. Next time stay out of it cos we wanna kill them"

 

[Deepflame]

- and I can't really see a special forces unit saying "WTF is the big idea joining in to help us win that battle. Next time stay out of it cos we wanna kill them"

That one made me chuckle.

Anyway, I think there's no point to this discussion. Mainly, most players don't visit FH and wont know about whatever rule you decide. Secondly, half of the players that do visit FH will disagree and ignore whatever rule you decide. Thirdly, a quarter of the other half will say Yes, but conveniently 'forget' about it every now and then. Lastly, there'll be the rest who actually do stick to the idea for about a month, then get fed up and forget about it.

Personally, I don't care if I get added upon. Infact, if I'm dying I'd gladly have someone help me out, I get nothing out of dying and my enemy gets stronger. If I see someone kill me when I nearly killed my enemy I will probably cry out along the lines of "Nooo, almost had him!", release and just go back out there, trying to find something new to do.

I tend to avoid the opted groups, as they roll over me faster than I can even hit sprint and turn my tail. Whether or not I'm solo, duo, grouped or in a zerg. Why? Because I don't think I'm having fun when they roll over me, my friends or my group. Even IF we had even numbers, we don't have even skill, even abilities or even anything.

Random groups are random. Most of them have no real leadership, lots of internal bickering about where to go and lack of realmpoints. Then when the action is over, everyone is blaming everyone or people "have to go help a guildie". There is also no coordination. People just go about the place, and chase down solo enemies with the two of them while the rest of the group is running the other way, clueless as to where the minstrel and the merc just went. Because of this, it's also hard for them to form a 2-FG group to meet against the opted guys, again, because they all bugger off in fuck all direction.

Occasionally, even random groups are somewhat able, manage to stick to the sorc, got a cleric who knows where his heals are and how to use his stun. Maybe a minstrel for speed, as interrupting the enemy as a random is an unknown concept. Some tanks, a wizard or a cabalist, and hey, it actually works well and everyone has a good time. Until an opted runs over it. Again. And again. And yet another time. 3, 4 times is pretty much the most any random group can take before looking for greener fields.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

I sincerely doubt that most zergs happen that way. From what I see they either happen through some specific event (like a keep being retaken then the BG heading to roam) or they happen by accident.

I would aslo think there is more variance in player type than you imagine. Most of the people I play with could be described us:

- people who go rvr, get owned, release and retry. Occasionally band with a second group is our class spread is unusually poor or only enemies around are RR10+

Regarding the military analogy, I take your point. However, there are some key differences that kinda prevent it being applied, such as:

- Military units are deployed from a central command. You'd not get special forces units saying "I ain't helping take that key installation cos it ain't fun, let the reservists do it".

- Military resources are planned. You don't get people saying "we don't have a medical corps support on this one cos everyone wanted to be tanks" (hoho )

- and I can't really see a special forces unit saying "WTF is the big idea joining in to help us win that battle. Next time stay out of it cos we wanna kill them"

The analogy was with regard to group setup and training, not inter-group co-ordination.And you'd be suprised how people do help in the ggs etc by covering the takers etc.And how much they co-ordinate with other people in a zerg situation.

 

[Belisar]

You know what may help...

A few of the opted GG's taking some of the random's into their group for the odd run here and there. Maybe 1 random as an experiment in your group, one that does not effect the balance too much.

Clearly that could impact on the gg's effectiveness and therefore may restrict their fun but it may also allow some appreciation of the other point of view.

I ran in what could be classed as a guild group and really enjoyed the experience - gave me a few things to think about.

Not sure the queue of gg's willing to take a chance on this would be a long one but could be an interesting experiment.

 

[stupeh]

Which class wouldn't break the balance

 

[Septina]

You know what may help...

A few of the opted GG's taking some of the random's into their group for the odd run here and there. Maybe 1 random as an experiment in your group, one that does not effect the balance too much.

Clearly that could impact on the gg's effectiveness and therefore may restrict their fun but it may also allow some appreciation of the other point of view.

I ran in what could be classed as a guild group and really enjoyed the experience - gave me a few things to think about.

Not sure the queue of gg's willing to take a chance on this would be a long one but could be an interesting experiment.

Nice idea actually, however.... I HIGHLY doubt any set guildgroup would tell one of their players 'no, sorry m8.. you cant play today... we're getting this other fellow who we've never played with before.'

As i said, nice idea.... but wont happen.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Its especially hard to replace a member in an alb group where the lack of x-class utilty already means its a nightmare trying to balance offense/defence and interrupts/healing.

Hibs/Mids might be more able to do this from the class point of view, somehow i doubt they would from the group pov though.And yes turning down your regular members who have primary places in the group doesnt go down well.

 

[Tuorin]

Well tbh a lot of rvr is done collectively by people who know each other. I think I earned almost all my rps on chars from fairly opted but generally not, pug/random groups. Maybe 20-30% or so from guild opted, I dunno.

These days to be fair guild is actually cosmetic, certainly in Hib. Its very rare that a full guild group is fielded by anyone on a regular basis. I can't remember the last time EC fielded even a randomish fg. That being said, you will make a group up from the alliance.

Outside of EC alliance, there's some of the NFD guys I know and a few old souls from pve days in a spread of guilds. After that, well people probably won't know you. I don't play my warden anymore unless support is personally known and probably high rr. Quite simple really, if I do and support ain't got moc, bof or such, then I die too often vs ezmodegard. All that = is log and then no-one wants to play warden.

 

[Z^^]

instresting meightz!1

 

[Boggy]

I've gone on too much in this thread. I'll just finish by saying I'm happy to share the Hib frontier with whoever is there - except Mids (cos they don't wash) and Albs (cos they are evil).

 

[Dorin]

Nice idea actually, however.... I HIGHLY doubt any set guildgroup would tell one of their players 'no, sorry m8.. you cant play today... we're getting this other fellow who we've never played with before.'

As i said, nice idea.... but wont happen.

well, GGs dont invite anyone even if they are 6-7 ppl though

 

[Deepflame]

I've gone on too much in this thread. I'll just finish by saying I'm happy to share the Hib frontier with whoever is there - except Mids (cos they don't wash) and Albs (cos they are evil).

We're not evil, your trees are! Always lurking, ready to fall down on someone!

 

[Belisar]

Which class wouldn't break the balance

I've acknowledged it would impact on effectiveness and also that there is unlikely to be a long list of guilds willing to even try a couple of runs.

It was just a suggestion to try to help people understand each others point of view because to be fair this thread has got lots of posts in it and we are probably no nearer any real appreciation of how things work for each other.

Any suggestions yourself or are we resigned to post and counter post ?

 

[bebopbo]

Bebop i wub j00 <flowerpower ftw>

Flowerpower.... are you the healer from mid/exc i used to grp up with many moons ago in BG wit my fat ugleh skald ?

Back on topic....

wtf have i started \o/