Please Dont ADD ffs!

[Boggy]

In what way would it make sense to try to play fair, when you only do it until you going to lose? i can accept dieing in a fair clean 1on1 fight. when the fight aint seems to be fair, i.e. numbers are not even ofc i will help my realmmate.

As I said before, that is your definition of fair not mine. As far as I am concerned the sides are evenly matched overall since we have 1 realm vs 1 realm. That's the way the game was designed.

To me, saying 8 vs 8 is fair is a massive over-simplification and ignores all kinds of things. It even kinda breaks the game, since opted 8 vs 8 groups do not use the whole breadth of classes. Since class balance was taken as a realm-wide view from Mythic, this approach risks unbalancing the game.

I also find your comment about the opted groups putting more effort in quite ludicrous. I am fully toa'd and because I am realm spirited, I didn't just form a little clique that ToAs each other, I put in many hours helping others, including complete strangers. I created and manage a guild - and although we don't exclude people based on class or suck key classes out of the realm, I still have to work fairly hard to keep it ticking over smooth and to keep to our lights.

In addition to that, I run realm BGs and form up random groups. I seek and also give RvR advice. I am constantly asked for advice about playing an animist (about once a day for my last year in game).

So, I don't lose RvR because I put less effort in. I just take a different approach to winning, which includes a realm-wide view and therefore sees nothing intrinsically wrong with adding.

As I said earlier, to me making an opted GG seems comparatively easy. I could do it, if I was prepared to reroll a more FotM roaming char and be more ruthless in who I excluded from guild and group. I could ToA them all comparatively easily - easier if I made a GG than ToAing a guild of random classes. An opted group is not just easier to RvR with , loads of PVE encounters are easier too.

However, I don't like excluding people. If I see some guy asking for a group in Ligen, I am the sort to try to fit him in, not take the easy option and only use classes of a proven winning combination. If our guild doesn't have the right classes for an opted group, I don't wanna leave some out in the cold and go recruit more useful people. Sure it would make my RvR easier, but where's the heart?

I really think it's a funny myth or just out and out bull that people in balanced groups put more work in. All they really do is more ruthlessly exlude people they don't need.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Well said Boggy.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

I really think it's a funny myth or just out and out bull that people in balanced groups put more work in. All they really do is more ruthlessly exlude people they don't need.

Agree with a lot of what you said boggy but trust me as part of the organisation side of a non-gg opted its not easy.

And yes we do exclude some classes sometimes, because ultimately we play for fun, and fun for most of us doesnt involve rebuffing every 5 mins...

That said we're not all bastards i do feel sorry for people i cant include without spoiling the fun of the majority of the group sometimes, but thats life!

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Just to clarify while i see what he said about adding as a valid viewpoint, i dont agree with that bit.

 

[Kanim]

On a busy night, you can have around 4 hib GG's, 2-3 mid GG's, and maybe 2-3 alb ones, so thats around the 80 people mark.

and every single one is roaming in emain bowl, no one wants to break the trend and roam somewhere else to have clean fights. Afterall they might be missing the chance to leech on the mid zerg playing british bulldog between crim and the tower in emain bowl

 

[stupeh]

Maybe so! But my point was that you can't call the GGs a minority.

 

[Boggy]

Agree with a lot of what you said boggy but trust me as part of the organisation side of a non-gg opted its not easy.

And yes we do exclude some classes sometimes, because ultimately we play for fun, and fun for most of us doesnt involve rebuffing every 5 mins...

That said we're not all bastards i do feel sorry for people i cant include without spoiling the fun of the majority of the group sometimes, but thats life!

If it wasn't for the GGs running, you'd not have to exclude people to avoid rebuffing every 5 mins. That's why I say that the GGs spoil the fun for everyone else as much as adding spoils the fun for them.

Not that I am asking people not to run as GGs. It's an option, the same as every other approach.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

We've started calling the Emain bowl the 'Valley of death', since more often than not you don't leave it alive.

 

[Luz]

If it wasn't for the GGs running, you'd not have to exclude people to avoid rebuffing every 5 mins. That's why I say that the GGs spoil the fun for everyone else as much as adding spoils the fun for them.

Not that I am asking people not to run as GGs. It's an option, the same as every other approach.

A good point tbh, but I bet the GG´s havent tought about this. Since being the best is clearly the most important.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

We've started calling the Emain bowl the 'Valley of death', since more often than not you don't leave it alive.

Some people have a competitive nature, often to the point where they get angry if they cant be the best at everything they turn their hand to - which is unrealistic but its true.

And yes the old emain is back it seems - a zone of pure death that only a zerg can survive.And yes the albs zerged a bit too last night - me personally i called a split after getting mass-ganked/added the third time and did a stealth duo.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

If it wasn't for the GGs running, you'd not have to exclude people to avoid rebuffing every 5 mins. That's why I say that the GGs spoil the fun for everyone else as much as adding spoils the fun for them.

Not that I am asking people not to run as GGs. It's an option, the same as every other approach.

Its a good point, however nothing will change because of it

 

[daoc_xianghua]

As I said before, that is your definition of fair not mine. As far as I am concerned the sides are evenly matched overall since we have 1 realm vs 1 realm. That's the way the game was designed.

To me, saying 8 vs 8 is fair is a massive over-simplification and ignores all kinds of things. It even kinda breaks the game, since opted 8 vs 8 groups do not use the whole breadth of classes. Since class balance was taken as a realm-wide view from Mythic, this approach risks unbalancing the game.

I also find your comment about the opted groups putting more effort in quite ludicrous. I am fully toa'd and because I am realm spirited, I didn't just form a little clique that ToAs each other, I put in many hours helping others, including complete strangers. I created and manage a guild - and although we don't exclude people based on class or suck key classes out of the realm, I still have to work fairly hard to keep it ticking over smooth and to keep to our lights.

In addition to that, I run realm BGs and form up random groups. I seek and also give RvR advice. I am constantly asked for advice about playing an animist (about once a day for my last year in game).

So, I don't lose RvR because I put less effort in. I just take a different approach to winning, which includes a realm-wide view and therefore sees nothing intrinsically wrong with adding.

As I said earlier, to me making an opted GG seems comparatively easy. I could do it, if I was prepared to reroll a more FotM roaming char and be more ruthless in who I excluded from guild and group. I could ToA them all comparatively easily - easier if I made a GG than ToAing a guild of random classes. An opted group is not just easier to RvR with , loads of PVE encounters are easier too.

However, I don't like excluding people. If I see some guy asking for a group in Ligen, I am the sort to try to fit him in, not take the easy option and only use classes of a proven winning combination. If our guild doesn't have the right classes for an opted group, I don't wanna leave some out in the cold and go recruit more useful people. Sure it would make my RvR easier, but where's the heart?

I really think it's a funny myth or just out and out bull that people in balanced groups put more work in. All they really do is more ruthlessly exlude people they don't need.

and again a proven winning combination of classes wont win vs any half decent gg who played to together since quiet a while.
you still make it sound like it would be the classes that make a group opted, it WRONG, just horribly wrong and naive.
make an opted setup one evening when mael/pe is out, i bet 1p that you will lose just as much as you do with random group even if your and their RR´s were even.
about leaving ppl out, well yea it sucks but group got 8 spots, and we ofc take only those in who offer something for the group. hib got a clear advantage here cuz there are quiet many working "opted" setups.
ppl in my guild usually dont even want to rvr when they know their class dont fit well in current opted setup. for example some1 in my guild has almost rr7 BM and rerolled cuz he wanted firbie BM, i strongly doubt any of the "none-opted" would ever bother with this so tell me again you put as much effort in the game as opted ppl do.

ye take a different approach to win, yea i can see that even tho its clearly not what i want from the game, furthermore i cant see how you can call it winning in a realm BG, its a "win" when forces are even.

about the realm-wide view and adding well it might be a good idea to consider that the game is about having fun as an individum, you dont fight for arthur beeing proud of you, you know? i rly rly hope that the numbers will turn again with cluster so hib is back to were it was 2003 when every god damn single random hib, and some whiny opted ones too cried like 3 year old children about mids zerging/cg-adding on fuckin everything in emain. You and other not-opted players didnt set foot in emain cuz you knew you would get zerged/added to oblivion within 5 mins after entering emain. Daily there was new whine on forum about this, and it was hibs mainly and now when numbers have turned you do exactly the same and now since you are on the winning side it suddenly is fun? you might be a nice person irl, i cant tell cuz i dont know you but the attitude you show ingame (to your enemys, not to your realmmates) seriously blows and doesnt deserve any respect at all so dont wonder when opted groups will kill you on every single opportunity they get no matter if you are solo or in a zerg.

oh and btw you shouldn´t talk about making opted groups beeing so easy and rvr beeing easier when you never tried it, you just make yourself sound clueless.

 

[Corran]

and invite competent players who know what their doing and how to work with others.

Then why do you invite me to the group?

Oh, and by the way. Just BoZ/Malice/Cyc eye left to finish of and I have then completed my SC So from monday you will have a opted group based tic ready once again

 

[Luz]

uhm well maybe this was a bad idea of mine, come to think of it I think creating understanding is impossible with this many people and over a forum.


But I want to know what the GG-players suggest the regular players that dont have a GG, dont have time to ToA, ML10 and Template their chars, or simply dont have the experience should do?

Add on the GG when we see one, or nicely let em kill us FG v FG over and over.

edit : oh noticed this wasnt the thread I started, well nvm

 

[Corran]

I like opted groups... however i rolled a tic which doesnt necessarily fit into the most opted alb group (however some people are willing to test it out even when i could not toa up due to the patch on)

I have spent 30 hours getting just 1 artifact of the 8 that are in my sc. I have all 8 artifacts now + 4 more just incase i want them in a future patch. I have made both really good solo and group based templates. I respec RA's sometimes on a daily bases depending on groups im running in. I help out at least one person in my realm a day get items they need. I farmed zahur 40 times solo to get necklace i need, and still farming him as poeple in Golem Girls most likely will need it.

I could go on about what i do for others as well, alot of effort goes in there. Also put in a lot of effort to farm certain items. I put in effort to roll a sorc for Outcast, then Reroll another sorc even though i had got my other one upto rr4.x and toa'd simply because i couldnt play my other account as often as i needed.

Now i not in a Guild group.. hell i not in a opted group often yet i still do these things. I went all out on my tic to get him 8 artifacts that were REQUIRED! to make him competitive (BoZ, Malice, Battler, CB are requirements in group RvR as they bring needed things albion need more off. Other 4 are required for stats/bonuses that you cant do without). And i done this just on the off chance i can get running in more opted groups once im fully sorted out. I solo'd my way mainly to rr5 as this where i become especially useful(yes was adding a fair bit but a rr7+ stealther always slaughtered me and all groups happily added on me so return favours).

So tell me... how have you put in more effort then me just because you run in a opted GG?

Edit:

Also got ml10 on 5 characters and soon on another.. and yet i only play 2 of these for my own enjoyment... others are to help out others in RvR or PvE.

 

[Shike]

uhm well maybe this was a bad idea of mine, come to think of it I think creating understanding is impossible with this many people and over a forum.


But I want to know what the GG-players suggest the regular players that dont have a GG, dont have time to ToA, ML10 and Template their chars, or simply dont have the experience should do?

Add on the GG when we see one, or nicely let em kill us FG v FG over and over.

run FG+ , 12 players or so, thats a pretty rough match for a solid group and it should be relatively even, if even not that is enuff, run 16. And dont barge in on every single fight you see, let good fights go on if you see em, maybe even watch and learn, nobody mind ppl watching

 

[Luz]

run FG+ , 12 players or so, thats a pretty rough match for a solid group and it should be relatively even, if even not that is enuff, run 16. And dont barge in on every single fight you see, let good fights go on if you see em, maybe even watch and learn, nobody mind ppl watching

its a good plan, tho more often then not while standing still watching we die hehe.. many times other grps pass by, and some of the times the ones fighting dont know if we are just watching so they nuke someone dead

Also theres just so much time to figure out if the people fighting want you to help or not, same goes here standing around trying to figure out via PM ie. which hardly will be answered due to fight..

And same goes for trying to see if its an even fight, we can stop and check it out, but if its 2fg v 1fg it will loose us the jump and initiative, and most likely its to late by the time we decide to help in that case..

There´s many problems with trying to decide to fight or not like that..

 

[Shike]

I like opted groups... however i rolled a tic which doesnt necessarily fit into the most opted alb group (however some people are willing to test it out even when i could not toa up due to the patch on)

I have spent 30 hours getting just 1 artifact of the 8 that are in my sc. I have all 8 artifacts now + 4 more just incase i want them in a future patch. I have made both really good solo and group based templates. I respec RA's sometimes on a daily bases depending on groups im running in. I help out at least one person in my realm a day get items they need. I farmed zahur 40 times solo to get necklace i need, and still farming him as poeple in Golem Girls most likely will need it.

I could go on about what i do for others as well, alot of effort goes in there. Also put in a lot of effort to farm certain items. I put in effort to roll a sorc for Outcast, then Reroll another sorc even though i had got my other one upto rr4.x and toa'd simply because i couldnt play my other account as often as i needed.

Now i not in a Guild group.. hell i not in a opted group often yet i still do these things. I went all out on my tic to get him 8 artifacts that were REQUIRED! to make him competitive (BoZ, Malice, Battler, CB are requirements in group RvR as they bring needed things albion need more off. Other 4 are required for stats/bonuses that you cant do without). And i done this just on the off chance i can get running in more opted groups once im fully sorted out. I solo'd my way mainly to rr5 as this where i become especially useful(yes was adding a fair bit but a rr7+ stealther always slaughtered me and all groups happily added on me so return favours).

So tell me... how have you put in more effort then me just because you run in a opted GG?

Edit:

Also got ml10 on 5 characters and soon on another.. and yet i only play 2 of these for my own enjoyment... others are to help out others in RvR or PvE.

You are pretty unique

Effort with GG tho, you dont seem to realize how hard it actually is to get a group going of 8 players, get all to play same times etc, to get along, to pull through the HELL that lowRR-GG actually is before RRs come, and the playstyle starts working

I'll never forget when we started to run our ADcastergrp, in preTOA, vs unnerfed savages and ASDspamming healers, it was pure fucking hell at rr2, rr3, rr4, rr5 and after rr5 we finally started to get things to work out, you cant imagine how much we have fought internally, and the whine is beyond anything I've ever been part of Once things started to work and and all the bloody time invested was paying off, the funfactor is rocking and its deffo worth it if one has the time.

 

[daoc_xianghua]

I like opted groups... however i rolled a tic which doesnt necessarily fit into the most opted alb group (however some people are willing to test it out even when i could not toa up due to the patch on)

I have spent 30 hours getting just 1 artifact of the 8 that are in my sc. I have all 8 artifacts now + 4 more just incase i want them in a future patch. I have made both really good solo and group based templates. I respec RA's sometimes on a daily bases depending on groups im running in. I help out at least one person in my realm a day get items they need. I farmed zahur 40 times solo to get necklace i need, and still farming him as poeple in Golem Girls most likely will need it.

I could go on about what i do for others as well, alot of effort goes in there. Also put in a lot of effort to farm certain items. I put in effort to roll a sorc for Outcast, then Reroll another sorc even though i had got my other one upto rr4.x and toa'd simply because i couldnt play my other account as often as i needed.

Now i not in a Guild group.. hell i not in a opted group often yet i still do these things. I went all out on my tic to get him 8 artifacts that were REQUIRED! to make him competitive (BoZ, Malice, Battler, CB are requirements in group RvR as they bring needed things albion need more off. Other 4 are required for stats/bonuses that you cant do without). And i done this just on the off chance i can get running in more opted groups once im fully sorted out. I solo'd my way mainly to rr5 as this where i become especially useful(yes was adding a fair bit but a rr7+ stealther always slaughtered me and all groups happily added on me so return favours).

So tell me... how have you put in more effort then me just because you run in a opted GG?

Edit:

Also got ml10 on 5 characters and soon on another.. and yet i only play 2 of these for my own enjoyment... others are to help out others in RvR or PvE.

you know perfect teamplay isnt something that pops insta as soon as you all wear the same guild cloak..........

opted group HAVE put more effort in the game, else they wouldnt have more rps, more lvl 50ishs, more toa´d chars, etc than most not-opted players. you said yourself that you prefer opted groups over randoms so i´d consider you more as a serious player than a random. oh and btw MLs is not a matter of effort, everyone can join a public raid, no matter if opted or random, however artifacts are a matter of effort, i have 15 activated artifacts just on my hero 11 of them lvl 10, about 10 for healer, 5 for vamp and few others on other chars, i strongly doubt there are many random players who have similar amount of exped artis, ofc some more PvE related ppl will have alot more, but thats not my aim in the game, now if you consider that artis are quiet easy to get too compared to some rare drops (like ring of the heavens, malamis belts for example, you have to put alot of effort into those stuff aswell.
now if i look at the random ppl in their RoG stuff i cant see where they put anywhere near as much effort as me (or any other opted player) in the game.

 

[daoc_xianghua]

its a good plan, tho more often then not while standing still watching we die hehe.. many times other grps pass by, and some of the times the ones fighting dont know if we are just watching so they nuke someone dead

Also theres just so much time to figure out if the people fighting want you to help or not, same goes here standing around trying to figure out via PM ie. which hardly will be answered due to fight..

And same goes for trying to see if its an even fight, we can stop and check it out, but if its 2fg v 1fg it will loose us the jump and initiative, and most likely its to late by the time we decide to help in that case..

There´s many problems with trying to decide to fight or not like that..

its quiet easy: you see someone fight, you dont add, if you wanna watch them fight, stay on 2k range and watch, if you go closer = your fault if you get killed.
and ffs stop this add when my realmmates lose attitude, its even more retarded than the perma-add attitude, if you want fairplay for urself you have to give it to enemys too

 

[Luz]

its quiet easy: you see someone fight, you dont add, if you wanna watch them fight, stay on 2k range and watch, if you go closer = your fault if you get killed.
and ffs stop this add when my realmmates lose attitude, its even more retarded than the perma-add attitude, if you want fairplay for urself you have to give it to enemys too

This still dont solve the problem of my grp standing still easy target.

And I dont debated some sort of "fair-play" attitude, I dont see this as a "fair" game, because if it were supose to be all the realms would have same classes and abbilities.

This is a online-game where people gain various levels and grades or equipment, and to balance this out so that 10 people arent gods and rest slaves under them, theres a choice to team up and kill the well-geared chars.

ie. adding

Do people in CS / Quake / Doom / UnrealT whine when shooting at someone and then get shot by a "adder" ? No. Games arent made to be "fair" there´s elements to use for all sides to gain a upperhand and win. Some use time and effort into the game - some use numbers and "adding".

All I wanna do is pull out the ones who cant stand adding - or not-adding (whatever one) and explain to them that they should not try and force the other side to do as they like.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Both of you are right to a limited degree - nonopteds take a lot of effort to build and run.However achieveing the same realm points/results as opteds is nearly impossible

Opteds require more sustained effort from all the members involved however the result is greater.Teamplay is without a doubt the hardest element of a regular group, only playing together eases that - i know my lot they know me in playstyle and thats what saves us a lot of the time in fights rather than ras/mls etc i'd say.

 

[daoc_xianghua]

This still dont solve the problem of my grp standing still easy target.

And I dont debated some sort of "fair-play" attitude, I dont see this as a "fair" game, because if it were supose to be all the realms would have same classes and abbilities.

This is a online-game where people gain various levels and grades or equipment, and to balance this out so that 10 people arent gods and rest slaves under them, theres a choice to team up and kill the well-geared chars.

ie. adding

Do people in CS / Quake / Doom / UnrealT whine when shooting at someone and then get shot by a "adder" ? No. Games arent made to be "fair" there´s elements to use for all sides to gain a upperhand and win. Some use time and effort into the game - some use numbers and "adding".

All I wanna do is pull out the ones who cant stand adding - or not-adding (whatever one) and explain to them that they should not try and force the other side to do as they like.

its a bit different in FPS games m8, there you can win 1 on 5+ if you are better than the rest, you cant do that in daoc, no matter how good you are in 99% of all cases

no game is fair from start on it just depends if you wanna play it fair

 

[stupeh]

sorc !

 

[Corran]

You are pretty unique

Effort with GG tho, you dont seem to realize how hard it actually is to get a group going of 8 players, get all to play same times etc, to get along, to pull through the HELL that lowRR-GG actually is before RRs come, and the playstyle starts working

I'll never forget when we started to run our ADcastergrp, in preTOA, vs unnerfed savages and ASDspamming healers, it was pure fucking hell at rr2, rr3, rr4, rr5 and after rr5 we finally started to get things to work out, you cant imagine how much we have fought internally, and the whine is beyond anything I've ever been part of Once things started to work and and all the bloody time invested was paying off, the funfactor is rocking and its deffo worth it if one has the time.

Ah but you dont realise i DO know how hard it is. It was a bastard trying to have all outcast online at same time to run guild groups. And i started that at RR1 on my sorc and ended up at rr5.x before they went avalon (I didnt want to go anyways due to language+friends still on pryd)

And yes Xian, im more then a "random" player but currently i been seeing the random players view alot becuase very few people know the benefit of a tic and also because i run about with groups of friends as well. When said groups meet someone the fight consists of Mezzed.. oh look they aint got purge2+... 2 people able to fight, no cc on enemy, no interupts, no heals Dead in 3 seconds You must see that is not fun for them people? Thats why though i get totally pissed of with adds i understand teh random people... what i dont understand is Mael, GA etc adding on said random groups which they do often (all rvr guilds do tbh at some time)

 

[Shike]

Ah but you dont realise i DO know how hard it is. It was a bastard trying to have all outcast online at same time to run guild groups. And i started that at RR1 on my sorc and ended up at rr5.x before they went avalon (I didnt want to go anyways due to language+friends still on pryd)

well then, not much to say about it then is it?

 

[daoc_xianghua]

Ah but you dont realise i DO know how hard it is. It was a bastard trying to have all outcast online at same time to run guild groups. And i started that at RR1 on my sorc and ended up at rr5.x before they went avalon (I didnt want to go anyways due to language+friends still on pryd)

And yes Xian, im more then a "random" player but currently i been seeing the random players view alot becuase very few people know the benefit of a tic and also because i run about with groups of friends as well. When said groups meet someone the fight consists of Mezzed.. oh look they aint got purge2+... 2 people able to fight, no cc on enemy, no interupts, no heals Dead in 3 seconds You must see that is not fun for them people? Thats why though i get totally pissed of with adds i understand teh random people... what i dont understand is Mael, GA etc adding on said random groups which they do often (all rvr guilds do tbh at some time)

well they add on them cuz they get added by same randoms all the time, i agree that fighting adding with adding only leads to more adding but what else can they do? they dont add on respected RvR guilds, i can assure you that as i´ve expierienced it alot. i can also understand mids/albs adding on every hib group they see as its crystal clear that hibs fuck up rvr by far most for everyone atm, one reason for sure is that we are so many, but if ppl would start to respect the enemy we could have some nice fair fights even if it means that as a hib you sometimes would have to run past 4 fights before u can find an own one

 

[Belisar]

but if ppl would start to respect the enemy we could have some nice fair fights even if it means that as a hib you sometimes would have to run past 4 fights before u can find an own one

Seem to be having this discussion over 2 different threads here - glad I'm sober cos otherwise I could not keep up.

Respect is a point of view and how to show it is a point of view. Most random groups admit they cannot handle a opted guild group, they would prolly struggle with 2:1 odds. That is mucho respect in my eyes as they admit the only way they can handle them is with numerical superiority.

Fair is also a point of view, how is 8 vs 8 fair if one side has better equipment, better tactics and better systems (such as voice coms).

It's all about points of view.

 

[Aran Thule]

but if ppl would start to respect the enemy we could have some nice fair fights

Tried that, and it didnt work, out running with visable or stealther didnt make a differance.
Nearly everything i encountered was duo+, prime example was Aoln, running around near Hild we start fighting, its a close battle, can go either way, then Carpp runs up behind and joins in.
Evita and friend, Thorbear and scout buddy, i can go on, all much higher RR then the poor little Brehon i was running with.
How about the full group that decides to jump in even when im on 5% life and my foe is about to win.
I didnt see any indication of them wanting a fair fight, i saw them wanting to win no matter the cost.

 

[daoc_xianghua]

Seem to be having this discussion over 2 different threads here - glad I'm sober cos otherwise I could not keep up.

Respect is a point of view and how to show it is a point of view. Most random groups admit they cannot handle a opted guild group, they would prolly struggle with 2:1 odds. That is mucho respect in my eyes as they admit the only way they can handle them is with numerical superiority.

Fair is also a point of view, how is 8 vs 8 fair if one side has better equipment, better tactics and better systems (such as voice coms).

It's all about points of view.

well tbh 2fg´s randoms vs 1fg opted is pretty even, if the 2fg´s still lose they just played rly bad and deserve to loose. this is a fair and doable challenge for both sides imo. but often you have 3,4,5 fg´s randoms running around adding on each others and everyone else. then the opted group stands hardly a chance to win and the challenge for the randoms is = 0

about the 8vs8 i can only say everyone can get uber equip, everyone can work out tactix, everyone can use TS/vent, its all given tools, its you who has to decide if he wants to use them or not. just taking the easy route while other ppl work hard on their teamplay/templates over months to be as good as they are is just lame imo