PF and strafing

[hotrat]

Well the other thread is closed and I haven't had my defence on what I said yet.

pf stupid ? ofc, let the tank run hours behind a farting shaman ( endb00f >> endchant range ) , thats fun

Well PF is needed vs classes with excellent defence like shamans, but for a sorc where my only defence is qc mezz or root if my QC is down or is resisted then I should at least be able to sprint away and drain *some* of the attackers endurance.
PF totally removes that and makes running away pointless as well, its not hard to sprint after a support, PF is just a lazy skill so that you don't even need to remember to sprint to kill support.
Kinda like savages getting rear stun.... it should be side only, like the BM, but thats savages

Also to Arnor's comment of they cheat so you cheat, there is a way for a tank to continue styling on its opponent, there is not a way for a caster to stop getting the qc fail message.

 

[Arnor]

Originally posted by hotrat
Also to Arnor's comment of they cheat so you cheat, there is a way for a tank to continue styling on its opponent, there is not a way for a caster to stop getting the qc fail message.

true yes, but still




and how can you mention savage 5sec rearstun and not lw 9sec rearstun

 

[hotrat]

Cus a LW hero/champ won't kill me during that stun, a savage will kill me during their's.

 

[pitspawn]

I cant stand PF myself either. The only conciliation is that it costs 14 RA levels, still its pretty damn powerful. Unfortunately complaining about it here will achieve nothing Wish EU players had more control of the games future than we do now.

As much as i hate PF anyway, my main complaint lies with stun-nuking and buffed savages doing so much damage/sec that the group cleric doesnt even hit insta in time for me to die.

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by pitspawn
I cant stand PF myself either. The only conciliation is that it costs 14 RA levels, still its pretty damn powerful.

14 points alot?

If you consider what a tank 'needs':

1) Determination IV 1+2+3+6 = 12 points
2) Prevent Flight = 14 points
3) Purge = 4 points ====> RR4

Optional:
4) Ignore Pain = 17 points ===> RR5L7


Its already very cheap for a tank to get the essential RA's, 14 points might sound alot but for a tank it's nothing.

 

[pitspawn]

Yeah, if you ignore all passives you can get it fairly easily. But still, as far as RA costs go 14 is pretty expensive. Maybe they could make some prequisite to it like Augamentative Dexterity 3? Oh and btw, i dont think tanks getting purge for 4 RA levels is fair either. Usual BS excuse is that tanks suffer from cc more than casters do because they are close range fighters. But lets be honest, anyone mezzed is useless regardless of their class.

 

[mandom]

stop crying, it has a 35% chance to proc, if you feel it proccs more often then that, do some testing and report it as a bug

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

Originally posted by mandom
stop crying, it has a 35% chance to proc, if you feel it proccs more often then that, do some testing and report it as a bug

ohhh..... ONLY 35% ^^


that is every/every 2nd hit with a Dual wield class and the snare is for 6 sek´s and when they hit faster then every 3 sek that is kinda imposseble to get away from


and the chance to purge and get a way in time is soooo low that it is not worth it !

....



can I cry now ? pls

 

[hotrat]

Originally posted by mandom
stop crying, it has a 35% chance to proc, if you feel it proccs more often then that, do some testing and report it as a bug

Originally posted by -Freezingwiz-
ohhh..... ONLY 35% ^^


that is every/every 2nd hit with a Dual wield class and the snare is for 6 sek´s and when they hit faster then every 3 sek that is kinda imposseble to get away from


and the chance to purge and get a way in time is soooo low that it is not worth it !

....



can I cry now ? pls

Fact is tanks don't need it, support can only move the same speed as a tank providing you are under no abnormal effects (disease, root, SoS etc). If you get diseased or snared its your own fault (except shaman fart which needs its timer massively increased).
Also seems no reason for a tank to get purge at such a reduced cost, they don't even need it half the time cus of Determination. Tanks needed fixing before RA's but typical Mythic went way too far.

Solution is something like: remove PF, increase recast timer on shaman fart, make determination available to every class but limit it to level 3 and change it so it doesn't effect magical stun, and increase purge cost to 10 points for all classes.

Mezz and root are way too long, nobody wants to spend a whole fight doing nothing. However determination and purge are not a good enough solution imo (demezz was and is a much better idea, GP was also a nice idea but again too much).

 

[sorusi]

Each realm can get it, a good support player can also avoid it by paying attention

learn how to /face them, get them slammed and then run or use guard like it is supposed to be used.. there are counter tactics to PF just like most in daoc

 

[ab_fluid]

Originally posted by sorusi
Each realm can get it, a good support player can also avoid it by paying attention

learn how to /face them, get them slammed and then run or use guard like it is supposed to be used.. there are counter tactics to PF just like most in daoc

lol, yeh its that easy, savages are very easy to slam, duel wielders piece of piss to guard against...ectetctetc

 

[sorusi]

easier to just QQ yes, and also slamming savages isnt that much of a problem, dont know how those who have problems with it, do it.. probably some gimped way - like most ppl who whine do

 

[ab_fluid]

Originally posted by sorusi
easier to just QQ yes

i don't need Pf chaging, suits me fine as it is, just not being a narrow minded ass tbh

 

[sorusi]

didnt say it was easy, 90% of the ppl in daoc who have s/s dont even use guard propperly, so why would it be "easy"

its just doable, and its gets easier with practice etc

 

[ab_fluid]

Originally posted by sorusi
didnt say it was easy, 90% of the ppl in daoc who have s/s dont even use guard propperly, so why would it be "easy"

its just doable, and its gets easier with practice etc

theres no secret button combo to make someone easier to slam, the heroes in vgn are very good players and save my ass day in day out, but still see savages evading 5slams in a row etc.

 

[sorusi]

thats rare, evadeing 5slams.. it happens but its a minority of fights and yes evade infront is alot higher than from back even if you have 360 degree evade

then again 90% of the heros i know of are 50lw/spear,42shield(some 50), and rest in 1h, so they wont get high weaponskill at all to slam with, like a green con hitting you

 

[ab_fluid]

Originally posted by sorusi
thats rare, evadeing 5slams.. it happens but its a minority of fights and yes evade infront is alot higher than from back even if you have 360 degree evade

then again 90% of the heros i know of are 50lw/spear,42shield(some 50), and rest in 1h, so they wont get high weaponskill at all to slam with, like a green con hitting you

50 shield MoB 3+ + 50 LW rest in 1hander is the general vgn hero spec

 

[Khefru]

Originally posted by sorusi
thats rare, evadeing 5slams.. it happens but its a minority of fights and yes evade infront is alot higher than from back even if you have 360 degree evade

Savages evade slams from behind lots.....and I mean lots.

Originally posted by sorusi
then again 90% of the heros i know of are 50lw/spear,42shield(some 50), and rest in 1h, so they wont get high weaponskill at all to slam with, like a green con hitting you

Thats because in order to spec to 50 in spear/lw, we have loose all our parry, or 1hand weapon.

Oh to have it easy like Mids...50 sword/50sheild/28 parry - thats 50 spec 2hand AND 1 hand. And before any of you mids complain that your 2 hand damage is gimped coz it's the same spec line as 1 hand, don't. That is utter rubbish. I am always outdamaged by warriors. And < yawn > at the 'we are the melee realm' crap too.

 

[sorusi]

imo if you are going to have a hero, you might aswell have a s/s one, the damage from a spearo/lw is crap not much differance from a s/s useing hero with slow sword

and also that good guard/slam ability "saves" more damage done to you than a spearo woul "save" with his gimp slams, and gimp 2h useage

 

[hotrat]

Originally posted by sorusi
Each realm can get it, a good support player can also avoid it by paying attention

learn how to /face them, get them slammed and then run or use guard like it is supposed to be used.. there are counter tactics to PF just like most in daoc

Albs cannot afford a dedicated guard bot like hibs pbae group and mid savage groups can, if the pala does it the tanks go ooe, if you recruit an armsman to do it that leaves 2 tanks (with det) doing damage.

Mid support can prolly avoid PF better by running speed shout in combat, as healing doesn't put you in combat. Kinda hard to avoid it if you get mezzed, snared, stunned or diseased.

Most of the times I get diseased cus the shaman does a fly by (while I have my pet on him to interupt, shaman can't kite my pet cus pets never lose speed even in combat) and farts on me as they go past. I get snared by skald, insta mezz is on 3 out of the 8 classes in a typical mid group, and insta stun on 2. The problem with mids isn't PF anyway.

BM's are a lot easier to avoid generally, but once one gets in range you can bet he will PF you on his first hit.

Good tanks shouldn't even need PF anyway, even when it doesn't proc good tanks will always remember to sprint when the support runs away, its really not that hard to do. The problem is once your pf'd the rest of the damn assist train catches you, same goes if your stunned (savage rear stun for example) but at least that can only happen once every minute.

 

[sorusi]

Originally posted by hotrat
Albs cannot afford a dedicated guard bot like hibs pbae group and mid savage groups can, if the pala does it the tanks go ooe, if you recruit an armsman to do it that leaves 2 tanks (with det) doing damage.

Mid support can prolly avoid it better by running speed shout in combat, as healing doesn't put you in combat. Kinda hard to avoid it if you get mezzed, snared, stunned or diseased.

Most of the times I get diseased cus the shaman does a fly by (while I have my pet on him to interupt, shaman can't kite my pet cus pets never lose speed even in combat) and farts on me as they go past. I get snared by skald, insta mezz is on 3 out of the 8 classes in a typical mid group, and insta stun on 2.

your tanks cant do this, it is possible tho

paladin/shaman range is allmost identical, now do we have to have our shamans on stick on the main assist? ..


oh and forget about savages, i know they have self end, but we in np for example we have been just as sucsessfull with 2 zerkers instead (zerkers that have 2x as much end drain as mercs )

 

[hotrat]

Originally posted by sorusi
your tanks cant do this, it is possible tho

paladin/shaman range is allmost identical, now do we have to have our shamans on stick on the main assist? ..

No but they do like to run in with the savages pretending to be one, in fact its pretty good tactic as when the savages reach their first target the shaman can fart on it making the target even harder to keep alive. A shaman can be just about anywhere he likes, the main purpose of a shaman is just to stay alive. Good shamans will also disease everyone in the enemies group, root a bit and interupt as well.

A paladin has to be upfront with the tanks, and 1000 range is very short indeed.

Also shamans can occasionally drop out of range for the savages, its no problem as a savage has self end buff. Alb tanks of course also have endurance potions, but a full end bar can go quickly when your constantly sprinting. Lets not also forget if the paladin gets mezzed albs lose end regen as well.

Oh I edited my other post btw

 

[sorusi]

w/o PF guard would be more or less pointless, and once again. no its _rare_ to have a shaman up front, also when guarding the paladin/target getting guarded should not run away 3k range fron the grp like a headless chicken

its called _teamwork_ holding the team togheter etc so all get end/available to get guard blalba

and why would your offensive tanks need to run 200miles away? might they be gimped with wrong dmg table or anytime spammers so they dont kill fast enuff, or havnt they bought PF themself ? :x

with pf you dont have to chase support 2k range away

 

[angrykid]

Originally posted by hotrat
Fact is tanks don't need it, support can only move the same speed as a tank providing you are under no abnormal effects (disease, root, SoS etc). If you get diseased or snared its your own fault (except shaman fart which needs its timer massively increased)B]

How can you say this, mate? the "fart" is the only thing we have to try to get away from the assist train. it's also castable, but I do think that it should be increased in value by 35% snare, so it is a small chance to avoid PF. it's not like shamans have any chance vs melee fighters except when they manage to root and disease, sprint away.. shamans don't have any good offence, except those two things and maybe, just maybe, a dot every now and then..

Just my two cents.

 

[ab_fluid]

Originally posted by angrykid
How can you say this, mate? the "fart" is the only thing we have to try to get away from the assist train. it's also castable, but I do think that it should be increased in value by 35% snare, so it is a small chance to avoid PF. it's not like shamans have any chance vs melee fighters except when they manage to root and disease, sprint away.. shamans don't have any good offence, except those two things and maybe, just maybe, a dot every now and then..

Just my two cents.

your crazy if you think 8sec pbaoe disease is "just ok" its the best defence from chasin tanks any cass has in the game, its not even got a immune timer QQ

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by angrykid
How can you say this, mate? the "fart" is the only thing we have to try to get away from the assist train. it's also castable, but I do think that it should be increased in value by 35% snare, so it is a small chance to avoid PF. it's not like shamans have any chance vs melee fighters except when they manage to root and disease, sprint away.. shamans don't have any good offence, except those two things and maybe, just maybe, a dot every now and then..

You are a support class. As such, you are much better equipped to avoid the assist train than practically any other support class in the entire game -- perma sprint and insta PBAE disease ensures this. Shamans are the ultimate kiters.

 

[Arnor]

one q to hotrats about pallies


wtf cant pallies train to get end4 instead of 5, just like 90% of the non-botted shammies in mid. (and savages dont count, mk? )


bottom line: dont QQ bout pallies, they can have 50shield just as much as anyone else

 

[Rulke-RM]

I like how PF procs on ranged weapons like throwing axes and short bows tbh

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

Lets not talk about guarding versus dual wielders shall we?
My scout with 377dex and 42 shield +mob2 won't block very much versus a dual wielder, so let alone how wel guard will do, even if they have 50spec (4% more block chance).
The instant pbaoe disease should go, or be put on a nice 5 min timer.
Regards, Glottis

 

[Glottis_Xanadu]

Originally posted by Rulke-RM
I like how PF procs on ranged weapons like throwing axes and short bows tbh

Ohh, I wish scouts would get PF then.. I would drop TS just to get it
Regards, Glottis