Petition against Turkeys membeship to the EU

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

In Brussels, over 50% of the births are muslim. By 2014, a majority of the children in the Netherlands, between the ages of 9-18 will be muslim. This while the integration is almost non-existant. Now, let's think 50 years ahead, the Netherlands demography will have had a serious make-over. We will have redefined the word "dutch". These are facts, not "racist fantasies". Sweden, Norway and France are coming on a close 2nd, 3rd and 4th place, it's easy for you to preach tolerans and harmony when you're not the ones who will be affected in the first place. There is a reason to why over 3/4 of the scandinavians are against turkish membership, and to why 70% of the dutch thinks that Islam does not belong there.

I wonder where you found those numbers...
one of those little books with that peculiar cross on it, with those crossbars on the ends?

and for the record, I'm dutch...

 

[Ormorof]

saying "Islam is a cancer on western society" IS racist, its also pretty small minded... a more correct term could be "Extremist Muslims are a cancer on ANY society" tbh

or even "Extremists Fanatics" as they come in all shapes and sizes tbh (just look at the KKK in the US )

having grown up in a small town in denmark with a pretty high percentage of muslims (ended up being moved out of my class because i was the only non-muslim there and was getting hassle for it, not from the others in my class, but from the danes in the other class, they wouldnt associate with me at all because i wasnt in their class ) i can honestly say that it really does depend on who you meet, if you take the arrogant, irritating morons who are the most noticeable as the general muslims then you are an idiot, as you get these in any society, ive met many here in the UK too, who are not at all muslim

that said, im not against turkey joining the EU, ive been there and the turks i met there and the way they treated me was completely different to how some of the morons treat you elsewhere...

now you say your sister was bullied in school? tbh its a common occurence in school, and if she went to an all swedish school she could easily have been bullied for something else (kids are nasty bastards tbh ), now thats no excuse for the bullies, but as i said, it could easily have happened in any school, anywhere.

also correct me if im wrong, but the "muslims" that bullied your sister could have been from anywhere? not neccesarily turkey?

anyway, going out soon so will stop ranting here for now

 

[Earl]

God ... i'm racist, but some of you are just fucking morons..

 

[Leathas]

peeps Turkey isn't all about Istanbul/Ankara/Izmir. People are "very" different on other cities. Wondering if any of you has ever been to other parts of this country. Come and live my life 1 day at "Kayseri" and you'll know what I mean.

anyway I'd better run away from this thread before someone kicks my arse

 

[Job]

My favourite thought train for these issues, the `dolphin friendly` Tuna cans, no dolphins were harmed making this Tuna.


As in Dolphins have a much greater right to life than Tuna...why?

Because Tuna are much less intelligent and there`s loads of em, so they are just food.
Dolphins on the other hand are `better`, we think of them as more worthy of life , they act more like us, they appear to be more socially organised.

We use racist fundamentals to chose between species as to wether one is better than the other.

We do it without thinking, in fact your`e first reaction to my statement will be `bollx, of course Dolphins are better, they just are`

Puting Dolphins above Tuna is exactly the same mentality as was used by the Nazi`s to justify killing the Jews, we are all rascist and `speciest`, if thats a word

 

[Chronictank]

My favourite thought train for these issues, the `dolphin friendly` Tuna cans, no dolphins were harmed making this Tuna.

snip

Puting Dolphins above Tuna is exactly the same mentality as was used by the Nazi`s to justify killing the Jews, we are all rascist and `speciest`, if thats a word

Think its because they are a endangered species not because they are "better"

 

[liloe]

.....
Because Tuna are much less intelligent and there`s loads of em, so they are just food.
Dolphins on the other hand are `better`, we think of them as more worthy of life , they act more like us, they appear to be more socially organised.
.....

Well I gotta put in my thoughts aswell =) Imho you're wrong Job, when you decide that a dolphin is somewhat....cuter, more intelligent, whatever, the next thought of many ppl is: hey, let's imprison this thing and watch it for our pleasure. So what is better: eating tuna and cows or watching elephants and dolphins in a zoo? Nothing of the two is really good for these animals, is it?

Then the people who claim that believers are all small-minded. May I remind you that we live in countries where we have the opportunity to express our way of thinking as long as it doesn't interfer with the others rights? I'd call myself christian and I've never claimed that all other people are more or less morons, but you, to express you theory of being free in the mind, call me simple-minded? Think about it. I don't agree with other people, but it doesn't give me the right to think I'm better than they are.

Now back to the original topic. The problem of Turkey joining the EU can be seen as two different problems, which don't show themselves at first view.
First of all there is the question of "What is the EU". Is the EU a geographically or a culturally unified organization? If you watch the history of the EU states closely, you'll see that the core-states have a very close history in terms of which royal families have reigned there over the years. Also all these countries are - more or less - christian influenced. When new states were added, these countries fulfilled mostly these same bases: Christian states with a history of royal families, christian influenced society and mostly a background of colonization, thus having many common elements aswell, knowing each other from a long time already. Now looking at Turkey, a lot of these things don't match. Turkey is a state of totally different background, islam influenced and has mostly been an enemy to all European nations. Sure, there has always been war, but there have also been times of pacts and unions between the current EU nations, whereas Turkey has always been a state people feared or didn't respect much ( depending on its state of power ).

Then looking at the geographical situation of Turkey, should a country, which is more or less 90% in Asia be a member of the EUROPEAN Union? I don't think so and this point has nothing to do with their inhabitants.

Then there is also a veto for taking in new members, which is there cause of a simple reason: Would you want a member in your club, knowing that another - maybe even old - member would only have quarrels with that new one? Just look at Turkey and Greece, these two countries are in permanent quarrel, just look at Cyprus, a huge dispute for these two nations.

The problem in discussing these things is that one person will always reduce the problem to a single issue, where politics is so many facetted, even the finest cut diamond would go green with envy.

 

[DocWolfe]

the world would be much better without religion, but with a higher moral standard. You even get conflictions between peoples who beleive in the same relgions (read: Ireland). Surely there is no relgion that actually condones violence, yet why do people do it? because people have poor morals... most people beleive that religion and morals go hand in hand, but they don't. Religion is just a scapegoat for violence nowadays and it to be honest it always has been. e.g. Crusades. Infact almost every war has been based on relgion, Hitler was a Christian extremist, and wanted to eliminate the jews.

 

[liloe]

Hitler was a Christian extremist, and wanted to eliminate the jews.

I hope you DO know that christians have been pursued and killed during Hitlers regime. So I suggest before you post, you get your facts straight next time.

Also you say that people "do violence" cause of their poor morals, yet at the same time you accuse religion as the source for it? Interesting.

While I agree that religion is - and has been - used as scapegoat for many violence, this is surely not something you can blame religoin for. You use the scapegoat and that fits just right, cause actually a scapegoat has nothing to do with the problem itself, but is merely used as fictional source of the conflict.

I'm sorry, but you're contradictory to yourself.

What you do is to simply put all issues into one pot, but the same I said about politics in my other post applies to many things in life: you cannot simplify all problems, cause in our time, everything is a complex patchwork of different issues.

 

[DocWolfe]

Also you say that people "do violence" cause of their poor morals, yet at the same time you accuse religion as the source for it? Interesting.

I never said that religion was the cause of violence. I said, it was often the excuse for it... and I also said that people asume because a person is religious that they have a high moral standard, but this is most often not the case... e.g. Klu Klux Clan, Al Qaeda, the Mafia.

And also a couple of quotes from Hitler to finish this post off.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

 

[liloe]

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

Which falls under the scapegoat argument =)

In fact he gave a damn about religion, it was just a good way to reach people and still today, a lot of people feel ashamed what compromises the church ( note church, not religion ) did make to please him.

 

[Cavex ElSaviour]

Ooh, a quality discussion

First on the original subject. I agree with the first poster that turkey shouldnt jon the EU (yet), but the reasons you give discust me

*Turkey is a country who constantly break the human rights and oppress minorities, such as kurds, christians (they are still denying the genocide of 1.5 million christians in 1915 - it's actually illegal to talk about it). T

well, last time i checked the us and china arent too picky about the human rights, and im pretty sure that GB has its own share of secret agenda. About the 1915 thing. Yes, its a big deal, but the dutch for example havent officially acknowldged yet that they were wrong with the slave trading, the colonies and dont forget the "politionele acties" in indonesia that happened AFTER the first war. I also think its a safe bet that france, england, belgium portugal spain and every other country had its share of "mistakes" after signing the geneva convention.

*With a population of 70 million, it would become the second larget state in the EU, and lead to that the EU has over 20% muslims (about 100 million).

so? in brussels the seats are devided to economic and population strength. england (yes we want to lead, but no we dont want to pay or participate), france(yes we want to lead aslong as our farmers get all the cash) or germany (yes we want to lead, everybody should follow the rules, except when we have a deficit higher then the agreed amount) will give in much of their power. (don't get me started on the dutch)

We have a very hard time integrating 30 million muslims, how are we suposed to integrate 70 million more? Do they want to lower the salaries and working conditions? Becuase that is the only way we can compete industrially, or should we be focusing on development and research that has always been Europe's and USA's territory.

no, we have a damn hard time cooping with the shit we left in the rest of the world, past and present. colonies, keeping "dirty" leaders in command because it was better for our economy or the otherway around, putting dictators in command because it was better for us. All these things enriched the better part of europe and left the rest poor.
the problems is that people will always go to the place where they think they can get a decent live, even in a small country as holland you can see that most people live on the west side where they potentially can earn more money/have a higher living quality. I havent heard anyone complain about the "farmers" taking over our jobs

No, the reason why turkey shouldnt join the EU is because the EU isnt ready yet to grow. not even to romania or what ever. due to course of history and propaganda of our beloved nation leaders we dont see echother as europeans but still as dutch, english, frenche or what ever. Because of that there is a contstant struggle of power, everybody is looking at their own back yard and loose sight of the bigger whole. EU needs to focus first internally, if those problems are away then we can look to other countries to join.


(i'll leave the christianty debate for another time)