Petition against Turkeys membeship to the EU

[Leathas]

Sorry Leathas but thats the most rascist thing said so far

yeah, you get racist when a kurd takes his socks off and puts it in front of you in a train, with an overwhelming smell.

pity

 

[Isgaroth&Ths]

well guys like every country if they meet the terms that EU has setted they will enter the EU pettition or no petition, personaly i am against turks geting in Eu coz they will be cheap labour force something like Albanians in greece and sorounding countries well the only thing that EU still dident learn that turks not so far in the history practicly owned europe, but as the wise man has said we have to learn from our mestakes AGAIN!!!

 

[Chronictank]

The legal system in most Arab/Islamic states is based on English common law and Islamic law. The former is more influential in commercial law while the latter is more influential in personal status (and, more recently, criminal and tax law to some extent).

I suggest you read:
http://muslim-canada.org/Islam_myths.htm
before you preach on about how "bad" islamic law is perhaps actually find out what you are saying so bad. Islamic law and Western or "common" law is very similar up to giving out the punishments. In western law a judge can only give a maximum sentance within the rules and regulations specified, in Islamic Law a judge is not limited to what punishment is given out. For example in UK law if a burglar robs your house and you hurt them. You will go to jail for hurting them, they will most likely get a slap on the wrist and a fine. In islamic law the judge can say the robbers go to prison for life.
Good or bad that depends on your views, personally i think its a good thing since it means people dont get away with murder, but its a bad thing because it is open to corruption (same way as western law but to a greater extent as the judge has the power to give them a very light sentance).
Thats just 1 example, to fully learn it you would have to spend years learning laws in both cultures.

But there are very few states such as Saudi Arabia have full islamic law,
countries such as Pakistan do not have islamic law they have a mix of English common law and Islamic Law.

In islam all people are equal, regardless of sex,race etc.. its tradition spawning from tribal law that created what is "islamic law"

 

[Chronictank]

Why don't I want to Turkey to join EU? Let me explain. If you've ever been to East/Far SouthEast of Anatolia, quality of humans (sorry,there isn't any other word for this) drops close to zero. Why? You might want to ask, the answers are plain : not enough education, "aşiret" system (something like a clan where a whole family lives in 1 house) which cripples the ability to think logically. What I want to say is, these people will spread all over your country and just drop the quality of your society. Don't want such a nice continent(Europe) to be filled with useless crowds of men who can do nothing but to reproduce and just consume resources + disturb social structure.(Go to Istanbul/Ankara/Izmir, search for Kurds, watch their behaviour. You'll know what I mean after then)

Im sorry but thats bullshit, i have been to many countries including Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Africa and seen many bad things but thats nothing to do with culture, religion or any of the above. Its the fact that there is no welfare, people arent paid to do nothing like in most Western Countries so the come out and beg. I have seen people live in similar states in London where there is homeless shelters, welfare, government backed schemes but it still happens.
As for "these people will spread over your country and just drop the quality of your society", shows how truely ignorant you are. 80% all civil jobs n the UK are filled by foeigners who have come to the uk. So next time you get in a accident and have to go to hospital you remember "these people" are the ones who are looking after you, or when you walk down a clean street its "these people" who are keeping it that way.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Chronic you're forgetting that leathas LIVES there. Knows a bit more about the people, country and things going on then someone visiting the place.

that all.

 

[Chronictank]

Chronic you're forgetting that leathas LIVES there. Knows a bit more about the people, country and things going on then someone visiting the place.

that all.

and all he is doing is painting a one sided account of what its like,
i have lived in an islamic state also (Pakistan in fact, altho its now semi-islamic) so i am not entirely ignorant either.

Yes there are un-educated people, but for the most part they just dont want to work because they get so much money out of begging (im not saying all some are genuinly desperate), but its nothing on the scale he makes it out to be.
The thing in countries like Pakistan is school is not compulsory so many people work instead, and it is not government funded so if you cant afford it you cant go.
As a result alot of people are in manual labour, but then its a cycle which is hard to break in a debt ridden country since it only gets worse (altho things have been improivn the last few times i visited),
high infant mortality rate = people having more children, more children puts a strain on the already little rescources they have, as a result more people are starving. Higher infant mortality rate, people have more children and it goes on and on till it gets to the extent of that in places like Niger nowdays which you see on the news all the time.

The majority of the population have comfortable lives, but the gap between rich and poor is very large.

personally i believe that Western Agencies helping by giving handouts is making matters worse, since people no longer sow their own crops, row their own fruit because they can get it for nothing. If they cut all that yes there would be a significant number of deaths in the short term but would improve things in the long terms, alternatively they could use incentives like in Africa where they have Work for Food schemes where people work and earn food+shelter. When they are proficient enough they are given a small bit of land of their own and given tools to farm it with

 

[Turamber]

Leathas' comments about Turks in the east and south east of Turkey reflects the largest problem with Turkey's application to join the EU. It is, essentially, two different countries and has been since the Seljuks invaded Asia Minor in 1071. Most of the larger population centres and wealth is concentrated in the west of the country, whilst the poorer people live in virtual third world conditions in parts of the east and south east.

Moreover the people in west Turkey tend to view those from the poorer parts in the same sort of way as Austria/Germany/France perceive the whole of Turkey: uneducated, unwashed and unwanted.

Having spent much of my free time in the past 15 years visiting Turkey I have to admit that I am full of admiration for the country and its people. They live in a secular country, that has a clear distinction between religion and government, yet they genuinely care about their faith. They are a hard working and energetic society. But they also have a lot of internal problems that need to be resolved and dealt with.

I sincerely hope that they are able to deal with those internal problems (and killing Armenians at the start of the 20th century is really neither here nor there, and I'd be incredibly surprised if people referring to that in this thread even knew about it a month ago) and join the EU. Keeping Turkey out on the basis of the religion of its people or out of fear of market forces would be incredibly sad and a poor reflection on the middle class, closed minded EU states.

Austria, Germany and France are economically declining nations - bit part players in world politics and world opinion. Turkey, once it has resolved its internal problems and growing pains, is the future. The UK would be best advised to ditch the EU if it really proves to be as short sighted and close minded as some of the viewpoints in this thread.

 

[OrreBorre]

Many many human rights are oppressed within the UK. Regardless of if you agree or not, being racist is having a freedom of speach, and yet that isn't allowed within the UK. Heck, if you're at a labour party conferance you'll do well to get away with breathing too loud
.

Don't see how this is relevant? I'm not a big fan of socialistic society, I could tell you a few things on how things are in Sweden and Norway that would chock you, here people are getting sent to jail for private emails for an example.

Why is this a bad thing? Many turks have adopted many aspects of Western culture and quite frankly the fact that they're muslim has nothing to do with it, the fact that they're willing to accept some western cultures has a lot to their advantage.

I'm more worried of the immigration, the muslims in europe are far more extreme in their values compared to the populations in their home countries (studies been made in France and Germany - Turks in Ankara are for an example more secular in their views compared to the ones in Berlin). I haven't studied cognitive psychology so I can't exactly come up with any conclusion why this is, although I could probably guess.

Didn't the Suns survey show that 60% of the brittish muslim population considered western society as decadent and immoral. Now, ofc this isn't a scientific fact, however it is the ONLY survey that has been made on the matter. In the Netherlands, France, Sweden, Norway you have racist crimes being comitted against the native population in a far bigger scale than the other way around. These aren't religious kids, though they carry the worst part of their culture with them which transforms into racism. Now ofc you can go on and on about how this is indirectly related to socioeconomic factors - yet after 15 years this haven't helped a bit. More and more experts are now pointing at cultural diffrences, but no one is paying attention. Do you really think that the anti-islamic opinion in the Netherlands are due to the Theo van Gogh murder only?

This is only going to get worse, in 2012 the majority of the kids between the age of 9-18 will have one or two muslim parents - in the Netherlands. I don't have time to look up birthrate statistics because I'm off soon, but i'll hook you up later if you're interested. A fact is though that they get almost twice as many kids per family in general than the average european family. But hey, who cares right!? It's not like we have any problems with these populations in Europe.

No idea what you're trying to say here. Again, we have problems trying to integrate many of the English and Pakistani communitys in the UK, but I dont see how that would be a problem with turkey with their adaptability.

Read above

 

[Turamber]

[snip]how things are in Sweden and Norway that would chock you, here people are[snip]

Norway is not even a member of the EU! Perhaps you would be best to keep your small minded, uninformed comments and thoughts to yourself.

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

Norway is not even a member of the EU! Perhaps you would be best to keep your small minded, uninformed comments and thoughts to yourself.

reppoint for you

 

[OrreBorre]

Norway is not even a member of the EU! Perhaps you would be best to keep your small minded, uninformed comments and thoughts to yourself.

No, but it has a trade agreement with Sweden, Denmark and Finland and hence free movement between the borders, people with citizenship also have a lot easier to get into the country. It's actually easier than Denmark and Finland(which are EU countries), they have also a much higher immigration ratio in comparison to for an example Brittain and France. What happens in the EU affects them as much as any other country. Next insult?

And oh, what hurts the most - The facts or that I am right?

One more question: Would you want to live in a town/state where the majority are muslims? Straight answer: yes or no. It's easy to preach world peace and harmony when you're sitting in your 200 000$ apartment living off your parents or whatever the heck you're doing. It's another thing when your sister is being called a whore because she doesn't wear a veil and has blond hair.

 

[Kami]

No problem with letting Turkey join the EU what so ever. Infact I think it'd be a good thing.

Have more of a problem with people moving to the UK, then not learning English :-P

 

[Turamber]

Would you want to live in a town/state where the majority are muslims? Straight answer: yes or no.

Yes. I own an apartment in a small town on Turkey's Aegean coast and have been looking hard for a place to buy in Istanbul. Its easy to be scared and repeat scaremongering comments verbatim, actually thinking for yourself is so much more difficult eh?

 

[OrreBorre]

Yes. I own an apartment in a small town on Turkey's Aegean coast and have been looking hard for a place to buy in Istanbul. Its easy to be scared and repeat scaremongering comments verbatim, actually thinking for yourself is so much more difficult eh?

Haha, are you for real? Think you missed my point there Einstein.

 

[Turamber]

Haha, are you for real? Think you missed my point there Einstein.

Thing is: you don't have a point. You are repeating the "OMG the muslims are coming!!!" tripe headlines contained in tripe newspapers that put them in for the simple reason they will sell newspapers to the gullible and ill informed.

I've lived in Turkey for weeks at a time, including during Ramadan when the streets of Istanbul were overflowing with Muslims. Heck they were camping out in the Hippodrome by the hundreds there were so many. I have not once felt threatened, not once been accosted in the street or treated badly. I can't say the same for my hometown in the UK.

You are just scared of something that is different and something that is unknown to you. That in itself is nothing to be ashamed of. Burying your head in the sand and hoping that the world will stop turning, though, is.

 

[OrreBorre]

Thing is: you don't have a point. You are repeating the "OMG the muslims are coming!!!" tripe headlines contained in tripe newspapers that put them in for the simple reason they will sell newspapers to the gullible and ill informed.

Thing is: You're a sacrilegious clown, just because you spend 2 weeks every year in your beach house in a tourist town, you think you can predict how millions of immigrants will react when they come into European society. Read my previous post about the transnational studies on extremism

I've lived in Turkey for weeks at a time, including during Ramadan when the streets of Istanbul were overflowing with Muslims. Heck they were camping out in the Hippodrome by the hundreds there were so many. I have not once felt threatened, not once been accosted in the street or treated badly. I can't say the same for my hometown in the UK..

I've lived in "Skärholmen" and "Farsta", you know what those are? Those are suburbs with big muslim populations, outside of Stockholm. I lived in Skärholmen from birth to the age of 14, at that time the muslim immigration had been concentrated into this and another suburb, my 2 year older sister who just started high school - got some problems due to the fact she was swedish and didn't wear a veil. So we moved to Farsta, which had a higher concentration swedes although it was a decreasing number there too, now we didn't get the same problems due to my sisters experience, but she came home with stories how other girls were being treated. And we were the "lucky ones", nowadays that single group of people have the highest ratio in sex- and other heavy crimes. Islam is a cancer tumor on western society, when they reach an x amount, theres only problems to find.

Amsterdam, Marseille, Paris, Oslo, Malmö are a few cities with much worse situations. Here's a little link from an american news broadcast in the city "Malmö":
http://www.nordischeshilfswerk.org/images/welcome_to_sweden.mpg

You are just scared of something that is different and something that is unknown to you. That in itself is nothing to be ashamed of. Burying your head in the sand and hoping that the world will stop turning, though, is.

No, I am scared of becoming a minority in my own town, in my own country, I am scared that if me and my girlfriend have kids - they will have to go through much worse situations. I am scared that hypocritical and naive dreamers like you will spit on democracy and get Turkey into the EU.

 

[Turamber]

As I've said before - your country is not even in the EU so it will not affect you one jot. There are hardline Muslims who dislike western values and behaviour, the same way there are hardline Christians who do the same!

Historically Turks are -not- hardline Muslims. A very high percentage of them drink alcohol, the most famous Turk of the 20th century, Attaturk, was an alcoholic. You will find some women wearing the veil in Turkey, but the vast majority of women do not. Women hold posts in the government and local government, some serve as judges. They are not second class citizens in Turkey.

I have been to the country, I have lived in the country, I know the people. You have seen what has happened with a few "Muslims" of unknown race living in your backyard. If Turkey is kept out of the EU the differences between east and west will become more pronounced, if they are accepted into the EU it will work to break down the barriers you described and promote tolerance.

But, by all means, carry on being narrow minded and scared of change and the unknown. After all you carry the role of racist biggot off so well you may have found your vocation in life.

 

[old.Tohtori]

One more question: Would you want to live in a town/state where the majority are muslims? Straight answer: yes or no.

Doesn't matter. It depends on the way people act, are and personalities in general.

I don't care if i live next to a muslim, jew, black, white, chinese or Ezteq and her green martian friends.

If they act civil and show me my due respect, i do the same.

This shouldn't even be a yes or no question in people's minds.

 

[Shadoo]

I can understand how some of you feel about becoming a minority in your own country, and some of the immigrants often do cause lot of trouble and sholdnt have th eprivalige of living there.

But you cannot say that all tese muslims will spread into our countrys just becuase turkey has become a member of the EU, you cant let the actions of a few overshadow everyone else

 

[Libertine]

If the Turks join the EU we brits aren't gonna have any 14 year old school girls left, even the fat ones will be gone

 

[OrreBorre]

As I've said before - your country is not even in the EU so it will not affect you one jot. There are hardline Muslims who dislike western values and behaviour, the same way there are hardline Christians who do the same!

We're not in the EU!? Damn, somebody hussled us real good then - considering we're paying the second highest fee in terms of the population/ EU subsidies. Did those damn norwegians steal Stockholm again ?

Historically Turks are -not- hardline Muslims. A very high percentage of them drink alcohol, the most famous Turk of the 20th century, Attaturk, was an alcoholic. You will find some women wearing the veil in Turkey, but the vast majority of women do not. Women hold posts in the government and local government, some serve as judges. They are not second class citizens in Turkey.

Well, there's a wide scale of diffrent groups of muslims in Turkey, there's the ahamdijat (or however you spell it) which have westernized values, many iranians who immigrated into the western countries in the 70's also belong to this group and have easily been integrated into our society. Also find many of them in the US, most of them immigrated to the US I think (heard there are 4 million of them in the US), not sure. Then there are the masses of other groups and isolated cultures who have values that mostly resembles the middle age. These don't care about adapting their lives after western principles, these want to conserve their own values and the only reason for moving is due to the socialsecurity systems and due to the fact their home countries have no jobs. Now, if I understand this right, Turkey has a big population of these, and they don't have problems moving around if they are allowed. Take a look at Berlin for an example, you got ghettos with only Turks, newspapers in turkish, turkish tv, they have no interest in being integrated. Over 75% of the turkish immigrants in Germany lives in these homogene suburbs

I have been to the country, I have lived in the country, I know the people. You have seen what has happened with a few "Muslims" of unknown race living in your backyard. If Turkey is kept out of the EU the differences between east and west will become more pronounced, if they are accepted into the EU it will work to break down the barriers you described and promote tolerance.

Geeze, YOU HAVE SPENT A FEW weeks on vacation in a tourist town haha, get over yourself.

Maybe you're right, I hope you're right. Though it has not been seen in ANY european country so far though, I'll remain extremely sceptic til I see something constructive.

But, by all means, carry on being narrow minded and scared of change and the unknown. After all you carry the role of racist biggot off so well you may have found your vocation in life.

Ahw, I love name calling, espeically from a naive, self-righteous hypocrit. I'd hate to be in your shoes when you realize I'm right.

Or maybe you share some of their values huh, been scorned too many times by women perhaps? Want to show those bitches their place? The things you write resemble the rethorics of a swedish convert, an imam, he recently got sent to jail for an anti-semitic speech. He is also known for an article he wrote on how women were morally corrupt in Sweden, great article by the way, bet you'd like it. I could try to find his e-mail if you want a pen-pal.

 

[OrreBorre]

I can understand how some of you feel about becoming a minority in your own country, and some of the immigrants often do cause lot of trouble and sholdnt have th eprivalige of living there.

But you cannot say that all tese muslims will spread into our countrys just becuase turkey has become a member of the EU, you cant let the actions of a few overshadow everyone else

In Brussels, over 50% of the births are muslim. By 2014, a majority of the children in the Netherlands, between the ages of 9-18 will be muslim. This while the integration is almost non-existant. Now, let's think 50 years ahead, the Netherlands demography will have had a serious make-over. We will have redefined the word "dutch". These are facts, not "racist fantasies". Sweden, Norway and France are coming on a close 2nd, 3rd and 4th place, it's easy for you to preach tolerans and harmony when you're not the ones who will be affected in the first place. There is a reason to why over 3/4 of the scandinavians are against turkish membership, and to why 70% of the dutch thinks that Islam does not belong there.

 

[Libertine]

This while the integration is almost non-existant.

This is my biggest gripe about the aisan community in England, unlike the chinese, japanese, american, french, german, scandanavians etc who all happily intergrate themselves into our society mixing in, the aisans tend not too.

 

[OrreBorre]

This is my biggest gripe about the aisan community in England, unlike the chinese, japanese, american, french, german, scandanavians etc who all happily intergrate themselves into our society mixing in, the aisans tend not too.

Well, the liberal society in general doesn't want to put any demands on the immigrants, more because the politicians in power don't wanna get their hands dirty (the people accusing me of being a racist, nazist, what else were u implying that i was(?) - are a typical example to why it is like this, they are the ones to blame) , than they think it's a positive development or because of principles.

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

Well, the liberal society in general doesn't want to put any demands on the immigrants, more because the politicians in power don't wanna get their hands dirty (the people accusing me of being a racist, nazist, what else were u implying that i was(?) - are a typical example to why it is like this, they are the ones to blame) , than they think it's a positive development or because of principles.

You wanting to have them integrated has NOTHING to do with being a racist... that's just normal imo. However, you saying lines like:

Islam is a cancer tumor on western society

DOES make you a filthy racist who judges people solely on their believes or looks..

cannot stand the likes of you tbh...
uke:

 

[Shadoo]

You wanting to have them integrated has NOTHING to do with being a racist... that's just normal imo. However, you saying lines like:

DOES make you a filthy racist who judges people solely on their believes or looks..

cannot stand the likes of you tbh...
uke:

Have to totally agree with you there, and how can he say that the people calling him racist are the ones causing the problem?

 

[OrreBorre]

You wanting to have them integrated has NOTHING to do with being a racist... that's just normal imo. However, you saying lines like:

DOES make you a filthy racist who judges people solely on their believes or looks..

cannot stand the likes of you tbh...
uke:

Haha, please, you called me sick and what was it - perverted (?) long before that! Others were screaming racist after the first post, you're EXACTLY the reason why no politicians want to deal with the integration problems. Because as soon as somebody points them out, you and your friends play the racist-card, and nobody wants to be a racist right? You're just another simple-minded fool who can't come up with any counter-arguements and use personal insults instead, pathetic.

 

[OrreBorre]

Have to totally agree with you there, and how can he say that the people calling him racist are the ones causing the problem?

Because for a man in the state, that's the most harmfull thing you do to him, for a politician - it's political suicide.

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

Haha, please, you called me sick and what was it - perverted (?) long before that! Others were screaming racist after the first post, you're EXACTLY the reason why no politicians want to deal with the integration problems. Because as soon as somebody points them out, you and your friends play the racist-card, and nobody wants to be a racist right? You're just another simple-minded fool who can't come up with any counter-arguements and use personal insults instead, pathetic.

you know to find those letters on your keyboard just fine, but now try to read aswell...

 

[Ezteq]

wow lots of stuff going on here, main things im picking up on is fear and anger (in a thread about muslims, theres a shocker!).

Lost track of who was saying what a while back but think the thing that sticks in my mind is one guy had a nasty experience with muslims (or rather his little sister did) so understandably he's not feeling too warm and fluffy about them, and i have to say i don't think i'd react against the whole society like that but i can understand that some would.

I'm not 100% positive but if the roles were reversed people would be outraged however no one seemed that upset that a little girl was verbally abused because she didnt wear a vale? tbh i find that sickening, why did no one pull the racist line out of the hat then? everyone's saying to this guy that he makes them sick yet the thought of an innocent little child getting bullied doesn't make you sick?

Racism goes everyway i absoloutely can not stand people who are racist... i also find people who look the other way when the roles are reversed equally sickening, in my book thats no better.

Just my point of view folks but in order to stop people turning to racism we have to stop treating people differently black gang beats the hell out of a white teenager in scotland we saw about 15 minutes of coverage on the tv about that, white gang do the same, well we all remember stephen lawrence.
The thing is because of the lack of news about the white boy that got beaten up people think that its because you darn't offent the black population by pointing out their bad side (for all i know the teenager could have deserved it, thats the thing we don't know), don't know if you'll see what i mean by this but the media's always seeming to be on the other persons side so this makes people who probably couldn't have cared less previously get edgy and offended, no one seem's to be able to say "in ALL people there is good and bad" people are either portrade as being totally innocent or completely evil.

i could be talking crap but this is just something i've picked up on from talking with folk at work etc thought i spotted it here too, just think that we should all treat everyone the same just cos your black or white doesn't make you good or bad it's whats in your soul that does that.

going for more cake