Parents raising genderless children

[Wazzerphuk]

Yeap, absolutely right, that's why a homosexual man is of the female gender.

 

[Lethul]

Word :worthy:

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well can't argue with people who think gender has nothing to do with female/male.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

But gender identity and sexuality are not linked.

All gay men are not of the female gender (note, gender: not biological 'sex'). To say so is fucking STUPID.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Oh, missed some sarcasm there did we?

 

[Wazzerphuk]

How is anyone supposed to tell from the reams of shite you produce?

 

[rynnor]

There are fundamental physiological differences in how the brain develops based on sexuality, it isn't something you or your parents can simply decide. Sexuality is a product of nature, not nurture.

I'm not sure that this is actually as true as people like to think.

I'm pretty sure its been shown that you can alter a persons sexuality through certain therapies.

This opens the door to the idea that a parent or the relationship with a parent could alter it.

Tough one but practically no complex bit of human behaviour has a purely genetic source - we just arent that simple.

 

[ford prefect]

I'm not sure that this is actually as true as people like to think.

I'm pretty sure its been shown that you can alter a persons sexuality through certain therapies.

This opens the door to the idea that a parent or the relationship with a parent could alter it.

Tough one but practically no complex bit of human behaviour has a purely genetic source - we just arent that simple.

Obviously people can be pressured into hiding their sexuality, but it is still an innate function of brain development. If you tell a child that being left handed is a bad thing for long enough, they may adapt and learn to use their right hand until it feels natural, but fundamentally, the basic architecture of the brain will still favour "right brain activity" and it is exactly the same thing.

The Boston School of Medicine has done some extraordinary work recently using voxel-based morphometry shows clear differences between masculinised and feminised brain development, but it was also found that various sexualities have different developmental differences in the dispersion of White Matter, and specifically around the frontal cortex and there are also very noticable diffences in the limbic and thalamic systems. A colleague of mine has spent five years doing the same basic research using basic MRI Imaging and the results are pretty compelling.

Certainly all mammalian species have multiple sexualities and also individuals who are transgendered, it is the evolutionary norm.

Back on topic – it is an interesting social experiment, but fundamentally flawed and actually I think more than a little cruel. A sense of identity is exceptionally important for children and from personal experience, struggling to relate to peers is a very difficult and lonely thing.

 

[rynnor]

Obviously people can be pressured into hiding their sexuality, but it is still an innate function of brain development. If you tell a child that being left handed is a bad thing for long enough, they may adapt and learn to use their right hand until it feels natural, but fundamentally, the basic architecture of the brain will still favour "right brain activity" and it is exactly the same thing.

The brain studies are not very compelling because they are always on a statistically insignificant number of subjects.

Theres a new one out on autism at the moment that drew sweeping conclusions from less than 40 participants.

The favoured hemisphere of the brain is fundamental but sexual preference isnt - there's been many inconclusive studies over the years despite a bias towards wanting to find a difference.

If it was fundamental the results would be clearcut but they aren't.

 

[old.Tohtori]

How is anyone supposed to tell from the reams of shite you produce?

By comparing it to my previous statement

Reading dear watson, reading.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Sorry but what you say normally bears no relevance to what you've previously said

 

[old.Tohtori]

Actually unlike many, i rarely change my view so it's all relevant

 

[ford prefect]

The brain studies are not very compelling because they are always on a statistically insignificant number of subjects.

Theres a new one out on autism at the moment that drew sweeping conclusions from less than 40 participants.

The favoured hemisphere of the brain is fundamental but sexual preference isnt - there's been many inconclusive studies over the years despite a bias towards wanting to find a difference.

If it was fundamental the results would be clearcut but they aren't.

Firstly, Autism - a specialist subject of mine. It is now easily possible to diagnose an infant as young as 14 months using an MRI, and although not widely used yet, it has also lead to the discovery of specific hormone hyper-production, which in turn has lead to a simple urine test which is now in the final stages of clinical testing in Germany - it should be available internationally by 2015. Research run in parallel at The university of California Davis recently reported success in diagnosing infants at 4 months of age - a trial based on 12 infants six years ago - 100% affective. Also software currently under development at the University College London can now spot the tell tale signs of Autism extremely affectively - their are very clear differences in the Temporal Lobe, Frontal Cortex and Limbic systems. Indeed with brain mapping we are now getting close to being able to diagnose different aspects of the spectrum. Sorry, but you are quite simply wrong in terms of Autism and the numbers of people involved with the sample groups in such studies.

Second point - reading this kind of research and keeping track of it is actually a very significant part of my job - there are at least half a dozen research projects or studies in Europe alone that I am aware of which are studying the human brain and sexuality and all evidence so far points to sexuality being an innate function of natural brain development as with any other animal. It is also topic that has huge amounts of money thrown at it by the private sector – it is now widely believed that the highly complex genetics involved are the key to increasing fertility in men and women. I know the Kinsey Institute has been throwing at least half a billion dollars per year into research on the subject and that obviously includes large case studies involving imaging. Alternate sexual tendencies actually make perfect sense from an evolutionary standpoint. You can influence your child’s behaviour, you can even make it hate its own nature and hide it from the world, but you can’t change it.

 

[rynnor]

Sorry, but you are quite simply wrong in terms of Autism and the numbers of people involved with the sample groups in such studies.

Hmm - no I dont think so - BBC News - Autistic brains' 'genes differ'

"The scientists in the UK, US and Canada compared samples from 19 autistic brains and 17 without."

Which if you understand anything about statistics is not a large enough survey size to mean anything.

Its funny that the Psychologists regard Autism not as a specific problem but as a spectrum where everyone is on the spectrum at some point. If your autism is too marked you exceed the norm and get labelled but everyone shares some of the aspects of it.

Alternate sexual tendencies actually make perfect sense from an evolutionary standpoint.

That I agree with but humans are not animals.

You can influence your child’s behaviour, you can even make it hate its own nature and hide it from the world, but you can’t change it.

The problem with this statement is that sexuality is not a characteristic that can be objectively measured.

It may also differ at different times in a subjects life - is a girl messing around with her closest girlfriend who then goes on to live a heterosexual life homo or hetero?

Is a bisexual man who sleeps with both women and men at different times through his life hetero, homo or proof that its not a simple case of genetics?

What of identical same sex twins that differ in sexuality?

Name a piece of complex human behaviour that has been shown to have a solely genetic origin

 

[ford prefect]

Hmm - no I dont think so - BBC News - Autistic brains' 'genes differ'

"The scientists in the UK, US and Canada compared samples from 19 autistic brains and 17 without."

Which if you understand anything about statistics is not a large enough survey size to mean anything.

That is one study, the autistic spectrum is one of the most intensely studied developmental disorders and has been since Lorna Wings work in the mid 90's.

Its funny that the Psychologists regard Autism not as a specific problem but as a spectrum where everyone is on the spectrum at some point. If your autism is too marked you exceed the norm and get labelled but everyone shares some of the aspects of it.

That statement shows that you know very little about Autism. Aspergers, ADHD, High and Low functioning Autism are all on the spectrum it is true and have symptoms in common, but each also has very unique symptoms too. In fact the idea of a spectrum is slowly changing. Also, Psychologists only have one view of ASD - they don't want anything to do with it. Aside from CBT in children, there are no effective treatments and most Psychologists don't have the training or tools to diagnose ASD. In fact the National Autistic Society has a list of recommended Diagnostic Psychologists - it has 83 names on it, over 40 of which are private clinicians.

That I agree with but humans are not animals.

Yes they are, especially in terms of sexuality.

The problem with this statement is that sexuality is not a characteristic that can be objectively measured.

It may also differ at different times in a subjects life - is a girl messing around with her closest girlfriend who then goes on to live a heterosexual life homo or hetero?

Is a bisexual man who sleeps with both women and men at different times through his life hetero, homo or proof that its not a simple case of genetics?

What of identical same sex twins that differ in sexuality?

Name a piece of complex human behaviour that has been shown to have a solely genetic origin

Sexuality isn't black & white, that much is obvious, there are hundreds of neurological and biological mechanisms at work, but they are all the result of genetic interactions - sexuality is a polygenetic characteristic - as for twins, basic genetics 101 - in two individual but genetically identical organisms, during development the genes are always expressed slightly differently. You can have one twin will develop arthritis and one that won't for example. In the case of sexuality in twins incidentally - there is a 30% chance that twins will have a different sexuality to each other.

Complex human behaviour with a genetic origin: due to genetic variations in intelligence, physical well being, and personality most behaviour is thought to be genetic. There are three strict research environments for standard behavioural genetics research - family studies, twin studies and adoption studies, and to say these studies are undertaken a lot would be a massive understatement. In fact as part of my job I get sent (and occasionally write for) a monthly journal entitled Behaviour Genetics filled with reams of interesting data every month - especially in terms of mental ill health ect.

 

[rynnor]

That is one study, the autistic spectrum is one of the most intensely studied developmental disorders and has been since Lorna Wings work in the mid 90's.

Well its the one I was referring to but according to you there werent any small scale autism trials which does throw into question your claim to spend a large chunk of your time reviewing such studies...

That statement shows that you know very little about Autism. Aspergers, ADHD, High and Low functioning Autism are all on the spectrum it is true and have symptoms in common, but each also has very unique symptoms too.

Hmm - you say I'm wrong but then you agree with me - how odd

Of course people at markedly different stages in the spectrum will have different symptoms.

Also, Psychologists only have one view of ASD - they don't want anything to do with it.

You speak for all psychologists as well now - thats convenient

Aside from CBT in children, there are no effective treatments and most Psychologists don't have the training or tools to diagnose ASD.

Who does? Most paediatricians pass this work on to specialist's too - do you have a problem with Psychologists?

Yes they are, especially in terms of sexuality.

<panto> Oh no they arent! </panto>

Sexuality isn't black & white, that much is obvious, there are hundreds of neurological and biological mechanisms at work, but they are all the result of genetic interactions - sexuality is a polygenetic characteristic - as for twins, basic genetics 101 - in two individual but genetically identical organisms, during development the genes are always expressed slightly differently. You can have one twin will develop arthritis and one that won't for example. In the case of sexuality in twins incidentally - there is a 30% chance that twins will have a different sexuality to each other.

Complex human behaviour with a genetic origin: due to genetic variations in intelligence, physical well being, and personality most behaviour is thought to be genetic. There are three strict research environments for standard behavioural genetics research - family studies, twin studies and adoption studies, and to say these studies are undertaken a lot would be a massive understatement. In fact as part of my job I get sent (and occasionally write for) a monthly journal entitled Behaviour Genetics filled with reams of interesting data every month - especially in terms of mental ill health ect.

You seem to completely ignore human psychology - it may be convenient for a surgeon to regard a human body as an organic machine but when you get into the realms of human behaviour it represents a fundamentally flawed methodology.

You are exhibiting all the signs of a classic scientific 'bunker' mentality that interprets everything through a narrow viewpoint.

 

[Bugz]

Which if you understand anything about statistics is not a large enough survey size to mean anything.p

How do you know for sure that the experiment wasn't undertaken with 12-20 d.o.f's?

 

[ford prefect]

I'm truly sorry rynnor, you are obviously far more experienced and knowledgeable about these things than I. From now on I will simply bow to your knowledge on the subject (as well as NHS budgets). In fact, you could do us all a huge favour and come to Rhode Island on the 5th of June with myself and six other colleagues; I am sure the 42nd annual Behaviour Genetics Association Meeting would benefit from your insights tremendously – it is also a very good excuse to get hold of some cheap tech every year.

 

[Ezteq]

tbh I don;t think it matters how you raise them, I was raised a girl but decided it was waaaay more fun to be a boy so raised myself to climb trees and deliver awesome headbutts by the time I was 9 then when I got to about 16 I thought I'd see what the girl business was all about and gave that a try.

Kids will bully other kids no matter what, hell if the kid is 100% perfect the poor sod will get bullied for that! I don't like it whe parents enforce things on their kids like religion or getting babies ears pierced (yuck!!) I think that's something you should let them deicde when they are old enough to choose...but then that's my opinion and I'd be a bit of a shocker if I went about saying hey everyone has the right to choose their own path...but woe betide you if it differs from what I think it should be!

 

[rynnor]

I'm truly sorry rynnor, you are obviously far more experienced and knowledgeable about these things than I.

Whatever - you ignored the direct questions and come back with a load of nonsense - have fun on your taxpayer funded holiday.

 

[Lethul]

By comparing it to my previous statement

Reading dear watson, reading.

But to be fair your earlier statement was jibberish as well, unless it was irony as well?

https://forums.freddyshouse.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3760197

 

[ford prefect]

Whatever - you ignored the direct questions and come back with a load of nonsense - have fun on your taxpayer funded holiday.

The only question you asked (and incidentally you should actually read posts before commenting on them) was if I have a problem with Psychologists - I would have thought it obvious that I don't - I work with them almost daily. In terms of diagnosis of Autism however, I am absolutely right - it is nearly impossible to get a diagnosis as an adult in the UK at the moment without seeking a private consultation. The NHS in general will not diagnose ASD's, because there are no treatments (as I said earlier) and therefore it is extremely difficult to get a referral, because it would be considered a waste of resources. Therefore most Clinical Psychologists in the UK simply do not get the appropriate training to diagnose ASD's, Mental Health Teams are in the same position too. Internationally the position is very similar too (apart from in Korea oddly enough) - Those are the facts: is that a clear enough standpoint for you?

Incidentally, the "holiday" isn't funded by the tax payer - working in the public sector, I am forced to take up private sector research to make ends meet. I find the implication that I would misuse taxpayer’s money quite offensive.

I stated an opinion in this thread based on factual research and over 14 years experience, if you have any relevant questions or opinions on it, ask them rather than just assuming you are and your opinion is right and everyone else is wrong.

To bring the thread roughly back on topic: On your point about dismissing Psychology - behaviours that are shaped by Contemporary Learning Theory are shaped by nurture - sense of humour for example is thought to be a learned behaviour, but CLT only applies to sexuality where abuse has been present - learned paedophilia for example, but otherwise sexuality is purely nature.

 

[Bugz]

Whatever - you ignored the direct questions and come back with a load of nonsense - have fun on your taxpayer funded holiday.

Can you answer my direct question above?

 

[rynnor]

Can you answer my direct question above?

I didn't think you were serious - do you have any idea how many variables there are in that study that you would have to estimate?

It's pretty much impossible to get a reliable estimate of the incidence of the autistic spectrum. Then there's determining where on the spectrum a given patient is - this is a subjective judgement with its own set of uncertainties etc. etc.

 

[rynnor]

In terms of diagnosis of Autism however, I am absolutely right - it is nearly impossible to get a diagnosis as an adult in the UK at the moment without seeking a private consultation.

I dont remember asking that question and why are you suddenly restricting the discussion to adults?

Incidentally, the "holiday" isn't funded by the tax payer - working in the public sector, I am forced to take up private sector research to make ends meet. I find the implication that I would misuse taxpayer’s money quite offensive.

Why - as a taxpayer I find the misuse of taxpayer's money offensive - if your on the receiving end of it then you should expect to be questioned on it.

I also think that the NHS went wrong from the moment it allowed consultants to do private work and remain employed by the NHS.

I stated an opinion in this thread based on factual research and over 14 years experience, if you have any relevant questions or opinions on it, ask them rather than just assuming you are and your opinion is right and everyone else is wrong..

How very NHS of you - did you start out with this personality type or is a learned response inculcated by the system perhaps

 

[ford prefect]

I didn't think you were serious - do you have any idea how many variables there are in that study that you would have to estimate?

It's pretty much impossible to get a reliable estimate of the incidence of the autistic spectrum. Then there's determining where on the spectrum a given patient is - this is a subjective judgement with its own set of uncertainties etc. etc.

Rightly or wrongly, in Korea at the age of seven years every single child is given a ASD assessement - those tests give a very accurate estimate 1 in 38. Studies in the UK obviously aren't nearly as complete, but random sampling conducted by the National Autistic society conducted over five years puts current estimates in the UK at 1 in 150. Various Autism chairites in Belgium, Italy, Germany and France put their estimates at roughly the same figure.

 

[ford prefect]

I dont remember asking that question and why are you suddenly restricting the discussion to adults?

You were asking about Psychologists were you not? As I stated earlier (again please do feel free to actually read the posts), of the 43 NAS approved NHS psychologists who do diagnose ASD's they diagnose children almost exclusively.
[/quote]

Why - as a taxpayer I find the misuse of taxpayer's money offensive - if your on the receiving end of it then you should expect to be questioned on it.

The assumption you made is offensive, not the questioning.

I also think that the NHS went wrong from the moment it allowed consultants to do private work and remain employed by the NHS.

Is that so - hmm, my NHS job pays nearly three times as much in the private sector. You seem to be all for the private sector, so why is lending expertise to that sector a problem. The private sector gets the benefit of that knowledge and expertise, and the NHS continues to work. I certainly don't work for the NHS for the money, I do it because I want to help people.
[/quote]

How very NHS of you - did you start out with this personality type or is a learned response inculcated by the system perhaps

It may be my AS, but I am not really sure why that should be funny.

 

[Bugz]

I didn't think you were serious - do you have any idea how many variables there are in that study that you would have to estimate?

It's pretty much impossible to get a reliable estimate of the incidence of the autistic spectrum. Then there's determining where on the spectrum a given patient is - this is a subjective judgement with its own set of uncertainties etc. etc.

Most clinical trials go through a period of determining the correct sample size in order to not waste money due to diminishing returns of validity, yet at the same time to ensure they have enough freedom to be able to have results which are viable.

Besides, the standard errors being large is not an issue if the data collected is so strongly in support of a prediction/hypothesis that the results can still be confirmed to a certain degree of accuracy.

 

[Mey]

I thought Bugz was studying an economics degree!