Opinions of the UK public plz

[Garnet]

Im in the same boat as you Blinky, had Crohns Disease since I was very young but luckily not as severely as yours (had some scary moments with bleeding and severe pains to my lower left side, felt like someone was slashing you with sharp glass inside you, but thankfully the severe bleeding side is dorment at the moment).

I want to work, parents dont want me to, but thanks to Crohns and a few other illnesses im stuck in my parents house. Main reason I dont work is because Crohns has affected my eyes too (yes Crohns can affect your eyes too - eyes, mouth, stomach, intestines, rectum etc), making me sometimes partically blind for short periods of time.

I get £100 a week on benefits, which is ok but I rather be earning my keep. Going to try and start working soon I guess as to be honest I feel like a vegetable.

 

[Jayce]

why not just go that one step further?

take all those unproductive members of society and put them in huge camps, torture them, abuse them, even kill them off - just throw them in the ovens
you know, the ill, the sick, the disabled, the mentally ill....

seem to recall some guy called Hitler doing it....

Yeah, lets all go to extremes coz thats sensible ....

If I had my way, practically all benefits bar disability would be scrapped.

He said bar disability, that means except.


Fact is there is a fine line between reasonable aid for people who need it and feeding lazy ass leeches. This current government has gone too far and is feeding the lazy ass leeches too much, thats what people are pissed about and get this, if we actively got rid of those lazy ass leeches then people who really need the money would have more available to help them. People with disabilities.

No disabilities are not all easy to find, with a decent system in place they can be made easier to find and the people affected can be provided with more and better help when necessary. All this can be achieved if the government actively improved their processing which decide who gets benefits and why they should get them at an individual level rather then following lame easy to abuse guidlines that are probably out of date.

Don't rail against people like Obli etc for their opinions because they used some generalisation that in your opinion included you, which if you spoke to him you will probably find it does not in any way include yourself, from what you've said, someone who has a real disability and is getting real help. You will probably fnd that he thinks this is a good thing and a good use of his taxes, if he doesnt I do.

I would rather my taxes helped people who need it not the local chavs who get knocked up just to get a bigger house ...

 

[Ezteq]

I think the thing we all agree on is that people who really need help should get it, the ones who just see it as a free ride and milk the system should be weeded out.

No one (well no one who is a good person) is going to moan about someone getting benifits when there is no other option available to them, what the government needs to do is have better follow up on the folk who are claiming, i.e someone who pulled a muscle in their wrist 20 years ago and is still on benifits should be monitored and as soon as they are able to get back to work off they go, also volentary placements should be pushed for more, someone who has a physical disability but is able to do certain things could be placed in a volentary position for a few hours a week just so as they dont lose touch and lose self confidence, cos most of you will know how hard it actually is to get back on your feet (and no im not talking about being lazy), im talking about those that have been out of action for so long they feel scared and alone and inadequate, its not all "right your better off you go!" a few hours a week doing something productive really can make all the difference when it comes to getting yourself back together.

The people who are on benifits and really dont want to be on them, well for them its a depressing situation and its easier to huddle up and hide than to take the big step, if a perminant liason was kept with folk, checking how they are progressing, telling them what is going to happen when they reach a certain stage etc then it wouldnt be such a frightening experience, and by doing this they would be able to actually spot and deal with the people who are taking advantage.

Remember when you were at school and you tried your hardest but got picked up on everything and the bullies just crused through school, got away with murder could basically do what they wanted? well some kids saw that and thought "well why the hell should i try so hard when they dont" and they give up, its exactly the same in the adult world, people see these chavs (for examle) getting a free ride and think they might aswell do the same, what they dont realise is they have a lot more going for them, and need to be made aware that yes you actually are worth a lot more than this, not be made to feel useless.

we've all got out horror stories, some deal with it better than others but i guess we all need guidence and support so stop us sliding and becoming less than we should be, some have families, friends but some people dont have any one, and this is why the government should help folk rather than just chucking money at them and leaving them to it.

 

[Pfy]

Its the same old crap over and over.

If you don't earn enough money then get a job with a higher wage? Have something to aspire to. Yes, I know it's difficult but there's always something.

People will always abuse a system, that's unfortunately human nature. However, the simple fact that a few do this doesn't mean that all people on benefits should be summed up as chavs/pikeys/spongers etc.

A sinlge mum that's been forced to leave her parents home (Parent's don't like the fact shes pregnant? They're religious? The childs father is of a different race? etc) needs help and therefore approaches the local council. The council then assess her under the Housing act (1984? Section 182 iirc) which deems her to be 'vulnerable' (due to having a dependant child). The council gives her a house, but how is she to pay for it? She can't work because she has a baby. She needs a hand. Housing benefit is arranged but she can't live on thin air. She needs more help, so she gets a weekly income to pay her water rates (Yes, you still have to pay these in council homes, albeit £3-5/wk), cloth herself, cloth her baby, buy the baby nappies, wipes, food for herself and her baby(dependant on the age as they also receive milk tokents upto a year or so).

Fuck me, I wish I was on the breadline. Sounds like a barrel of laughs. Free money, no pressure, not having to worry about being able to manage your money so that you and more importantly your baby don't go without. Yeah, right.

Ok, so you'll probably say 'Yeah well I've nothing against people that need help". Well who he fuck decides who needs help? It sure as hell isn't you? Big fucking whoopdy, she's having a McDonalds. Perhaps it's the 1 treat a week she gets to try and remove herself from her boring, stressful disatisfying life. Hell, maybe after spending all day everyday at home looking after a screeming kid she's had enough, but no, she can't leave the kid behind, no matter how much she wishes she wasn't here anymore. Ahh, I know, smoking will help with her stress and when the baby is a sleep it gives her 5 minutes to chill. FUCK NO, YOU CAN'T SMOKE COS THEN IT PROVES YOUR JUST A SPONGER! etc

Bit of a pointless rant, basically the point I'm trying to make is that what you see isn't always the case. I've worked for local governemtns, mainly in rehousing homeless people and yeah, I've seen the ones waiting to abuse the system, but I've also seen the ones in there in desperate need of a hand, the ones that are fleeing DV, the ones that are fleeing persecution from another country (Yeah, an asylum seeker, they're not all lying ***** you know) and however many horrible things you can think of.

You want to rant about something other than your own self interest (Read: You want money for nothing AS WELL AS the money you earn) then rant about how the government assesses vulnerability, how if you're a single man with no dependants, healthy and between 18 - 65 noone will help you. Yeah, you'll get JSA but a whoping £40 a week isn't going to stop you livin g in a gutter.

People need help, you should feel privellaged you're in a position to offer it (albeit through tax). Don't agree with how it's all run then either fuck off out the country, vote a different party or make your own and shut the fuck up.

 

[Pfy]

Oh and I'm not unemployed.

 

[Lorra]

Yeah ... we shouldnt have wasted so much time on you for a start.

The only thing I get from his govt. is an education and everyone in the country gets that to some degree.

I wouldn’t define my self as a Fuckwit,

Job: Part time Cashier at Lloyds TSB
Education: 11 GSCES A-c grades

Current Education: College / Psychology / Sociology / Philosophy of Religion / Media Studies

 

[Pfy]

The only thing I get from his govt. is an education and everyone in the country gets that to some degree.

I wouldn’t define my self as a Fuckwit,

Job: Part time Cashier at Lloyds TSB
Education: 11 GSCES A-c grades

Current Education: College / Psychology / Sociology / Philosophy of Religion / Media Studies

Cry me a river. You think you're the only one? No.

Oh and fucking hell, Philosophy of Religion? Intersting or boring?

 

[oblimov]

Don't rail against people like Obli etc for their opinions because they used some generalisation that in your opinion included you, which if you spoke to him you will probably find it does not in any way include yourself, from what you've said, someone who has a real disability and is getting real help. You will probably fnd that he thinks this is a good thing and a good use of his taxes, if he doesnt I do.

I would rather my taxes helped people who need it not the local chavs who get knocked up just to get a bigger house ...

So true, some people always get offended when I mention the whole benefits issue, but not once do I ever say they should be scrapped, I just think the countries definition of those who need help has to be drastically changed

As ive seen through this thread there are some great people who are being shafted by the country that supposed to protect them, after all generations of their families have worked and paid for this country to get to where it is today.

As has also been said I really believe that the country would benefit from a massive overhaul of the benefits system to assess items on a case by case basis, the problem with this however is there would be so many cases it would literally take a decade just to get appointments booked.

To the guy who got upset and said who decides whos ill and whos not ill, well m8 it would be health professionals who currently dont assess every disabled person in the UK, if they did then the fraudsters would be caught and the unfortunate few (many?) who are being stepped on by the system would benefit.

Also you say why should we decide?

Hmm i reckon thats because we live in a democracy and we are after all the people whos tax keeps the country going, heaven forbid we should be allowed to say how that tax money is spent.

Very Americanised view of peoples rights to government there m8


edit : 2003 figures, in the UK over 20 million pounds of tax payers money were spent on powder milk, and you dont have to pay rent, council tax, elecriticy, phone bills so to me thats pretty good and not as glum as the picture you paint

 

[Pfy]

edit : 2003 figures, in the UK over 20 million pounds of tax payers money were spent on powder milk, and you dont have to pay rent, council tax, elecriticy, phone bills so to me thats pretty good and not as glum as the picture you paint

Yes, we should let babys starve! :/

You don't pay rent or Council tax, true.

You do however pay Water Rate, Electricity, Phone Bills and Gas Bills. Yes you pay it with the money you receive in benefits but you still pay for it.

You earn £100 a week. All guestimate figures:

£15 of that goes on electricity.
£5 goes on paying water rates.
£10 goes on paying gas.
£5 Goes on paying a phone bill.

So thats £100 - £35 = £65. Then you can buy food, nappies clothing etc.

Yeah, great life. :/

I can't beleive your idiocy to say people on benefits don;t have to pay for ANYTHING (Well that's the jist I got). You're a complete ignoramus if that's what you honestly beleive.

 

[Pfy]

Oh and Milk Tokens just don't go to those that 'spongers', it actually goes to those on low wage brackets with young children (Well, to the best of my knowledge).

 

[oblimov]

m8 ur sadly assuming that people on benefit all have morals

As has been shown there are a number of them who have no integrity at all and will scam away at the system

There has been numerous documentaries ive seen were people have went to the council and said they cant afford x, y z and they are given more money to help it

The problem with benefits is we as caring people wouldnt allow someone to starve, so some take advantage of this good will

If a chav mother came to the social and said ive spent all my money on bills and now ive no money to feed my children, will they turn her away? no they wont and sadly thats what so many do to con the system

the milk thing is sadly to state how many people are having children when they cant clearly afford them (like myself and my partner) the only difference is decent people wouldnt have kids anyway and expect the state to look after them

This can be seen by the massive reduction in children born in working class families

 

[oblimov]

Oh and Milk Tokens just don't go to those that 'spongers', it actually goes to those on low wage brackets with young children (Well, to the best of my knowledge).

where did i say milk token?

and yes they do, its part of the govt plan to try and improve the health of the low waged people to reduce NHS demands

 

[Pfy]

where did i say milk token?

and yes they do, its part of the govt plan to try and improve the health of the low waged people to reduce NHS demands

Milk tokens are both redeemable on POWEDERED MILK and plain old normal milk in a bottle/carton.

People are given money dependant on their entitlement. They get a set amount dependant on their circumstances, you can't barter this. Any additional funding would come in the form of a DSS loan which would have to be paid back (or in a few minorty cases not).

Accident's happen and people get pregnant, is it more moral to terminate that life or to seek some help from a social fund? Slightly off track but trying to prove that not everything is so clear cut.

 

[Chilly]

I suspect the drop in child birth among fmailies who mgith actually be able to bring them up is because those couples would prefer to live teh high life - i know I certainly would if me and a wife/gf or wotever were earning 70k a year, id be having a fucking ball holidays, cars, all the shit. babies would only cross my mind after id got a bit burnt out or something. Its sad that a lot of kids being born are being born into homes where they dont think reading or knowig mental arithmatic is a good skill, or that encoruage curiosity, when i was growing up I had it all, very very good primary school, wealthy parents to support me (they still are, im at uni) both very smart people both have more than one university degree in the sciences. Its a shame not everyone could have such a good start as me and I understand a lot of it is down to cold hard cash, but theres a group of society who think tis cool to be thick and that sickens me.

 

[Jayce]

shut the fuck up.

Yeah lets all do this, because if no one talks about it and no one offers and opinion about it then we will all magically learn these things and know what everyone else thinks and feels and all the problems we would've talked about would magically fix themselves in our own opinions .....

Erm, get a clue.

Yeah some people's generalisations arent true. Yes some people are taking too much at face value. Yes there is self interest involved. But do you really think ranting and being agressive / abusing will make any difference what so ever ? Shout at people and they will suddenly be reasonable ? Idiot.

The point is that the governments system has a lot of holes, those holes are allowing more and more people to cheat the system. More and more people are seeing the system being cheated and those people are 'seemably' getting away with it. But thats life, and its only less then 1%, but then your mates see similar things, and their mates, and then people in your family comment about similar things and on a public board like this there are more examples, fuck me maybe it is more then 1%, so those people who have all been talking to each other take this kind of information and possibly get the wrong idea, maybe start leaning toward prejudice and start to generalise.
Then you get those people who are at the end of the generilasion but have a real reason and are not cheating the system, they reply and offer their experiences and information, the first group of people learn that they might be being a bit harsh and that there are actually people out there with legitimate needs for help, it helps them see that their taxes are being used for good things and the latter group also see that there is more of the system cheats them they thought by reading/listening to what the first people are saying.

Then maybe, just maybe, enough of these people will use this information in other parts of thier lives and maybe those parts get reciprocated elsewhere until there is a loud enough community voice / large enough group of voters who find themselves in a possition to change the way things are and possibly make things better for all people involved (except the lazy ones ofc). Lo and behold the world gets better ....

... or maybe we should all just shut the fuck up, eh ?

Blinded by the fire coming from your flaming maybe you missed the point where the conversation moved onto the fact that this is a porblem with how the government are going about doing things and their lack of active management of benefits, who gets and why etc, rather then just all people on benefits being chav's and misfits.

You do have a good point about not everything is as it seems though, we are all guilty of not thinking beyond what we see, though through reasonable conversation we can identify this and look past incidents of blind prejudice. Hopefully.

 

[tris-]

to put it simply, i think many of us dont like the fact that some people are "entitled" to things they dont deserve, didnt earn and will never do anything about to pay it back.
why is joe scruff given £xxx for being poor? hey your poor, have a reward!. then mr working class is busting his fuckin arse off, earning jack shit, paying debts, paying mortgages etc, he is actually making a difference to the country (even if it is very small), but do the government care? nope. hey mr working class, we are gonna take 1/4 of your wages a year and give it to joe scruff cos he cant be arsed doing anything. oh, but we still want you to work though, even though we both know there is no point.

and just to make it more clear so my words dont get twisted like a curley wirley, it is the people who WONT work rather than people who CANT work that are disliked.

 

[Pfy]

snip

Yes perhaps I was a bit too vocal in trying to get my point across. I can see you have a point about my rantings being taken as a flame. I'll try to address it as it'll cause the discussion to deteriorate to mindless abuse.

What can the 'normal' person do to change the situation? In short nothing, not immediately. Yes, perhaps the key is to educate that although the system can be abused it is primarily there to help the needy.

From what I've seen life isn't great when you're on benefits however I can understand why some people see it that way. I never came from a rich family, my Dad was unemlpyed for god knows how long in Kilmarnock and hence we had to move the London.

For those that want to look, there is always an option. My parents were minimum wage earners and I never took any education beyond GCSEs. However, I'm now in a position where I can provide for my family and earn a pretty modest wage (I won't say how much).

I've been on the dole several times and that was good fun, sitting about doing nothing, albeit for about 2 weeks, then it got boring.

People on benefits are sometimes limited to what they can do, especially if they have young kids. If a single mum went to work and put her child at a babysitters who'd have to pick up the bill? The mum couldn't afford it and so in essence they're paid to 'babysit' their own kids. Where I live if the government were to pay for peoples babysitters we'd all be paying a lot more tax.

On a side note, I obviously resent being titled as an idiot. Perhaps it'd be better to title my actions as idiotic? :>

 

[Pfy]

to put it simply, i think many of us dont like the fact that some people are "entitled" to things they dont deserve, didnt earn and will never do anything about to pay it back.
why is joe scruff given £xxx for being poor? hey your poor, have a reward!. then mr working class is busting his fuckin arse off, earning jack shit, paying debts, paying mortgages etc, he is actually making a difference to the country (even if it is very small), but do the government care? nope. hey mr working class, we are gonna take 1/4 of your wages a year and give it to joe scruff cos he cant be arsed doing anything. oh, but we still want you to work though, even though we both know there is no point.

and just to make it more clear so my words dont get twisted like a curley wirley, it is the people who WONT work rather than people who CANT work that are disliked.

The people who won't work is why the JSA gives you 3 months to find your own employment. After that they arrange interviews for you. If you refuse these or any jobs offered entitlement is then revoked and you're told to fend for yourself.

Not ideal, but a step in the right direction.

 

[Jayce]

What can the 'normal' person do to change the situation? In short nothing, not immediately. Yes, perhaps the key is to educate that although the system can be abused it is primarily there to help the needy.

Isnt that what discussions like this are good for ? Maybe similar things are happening on other boards by other UK people. If one of us learns from points made here and use those in other parts of our lives to maybe influence others then this has been a worthwhile discussion. Yes it is slow but thats the medium we, the 'normal' person, have available to us, amognst other public things.

On a side note, I obviously resent being titled as an idiot. Perhaps it'd be better to title my actions as idiotic? :>

Indeed, apologies for that, your clearly not an idiot. I'll take my own advice and keep this to reasonable conversation.

 

[oblimov]

The people who won't work is why the JSA gives you 3 months to find your own employment. After that they arrange interviews for you. If you refuse these or any jobs offered entitlement is then revoked and you're told to fend for yourself.

Not ideal, but a step in the right direction.

M8 income support and JSA are two seperate benefits

Income SUpport = I dont want a job

JSA = I do want a job

If you go on JSA your hounded and they try to get you a job

Also dont forget you could do a spud from trainspotting at any interviews to prevent you being offered jobs

One of the posts here mentioned that in their country unemployed were recruited by the council to clean up etc, i cant understand why this isnt enforced here, that way people have the self esteem of being "usefull" and also get a wage at teh same time, surely with the amount of vandalism etc in the UK this would be a win win situation?

 

[oblimov]

Interestingly this is on the news today

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4224721.stm

 

[Jayce]

Interesting, but I wont hold my breath.

 

[Ezteq]

Yes perhaps I was a bit too vocal in trying to get my point across. I can see you have a point about my rantings being taken as a flame. I'll try to address it as it'll cause the discussion to deteriorate to mindless abuse.

On a side note, I obviously resent being titled as an idiot. Perhaps it'd be better to title my actions as idiotic? :>

outstanding!
buddy a big for you, i've seen on so many of these threads where a really interesting discussion has gone down the pan because folk get a bit hot under the collar and dont see it and the thread deteriorates(sp??) in to a huge fight.
Nicely done

 

[Ezteq]

Interestingly this is on the news today

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4224721.stm

<sorry havent learnt how to do multi quote posts yet>

wow maybe Mr Blair reads this forum?? tbh this sounds great, sadly a lot of the stuff that sounds great doesnt come to pass but if this worked out i think it could be a real shot in the arm for this country, a lot of people slag the uk off and are deeply unhappy with it, im not happy with some elements of the uk but on the whole its a damn better place to live than some countries.

The news in that link really does sound good, i have a recurring condition (fingers crossed the bugger wont come back) and i am not alone lots of people have illnesses where they have long periods of good health then something happens and bam down you go, this new system he's talking about sounds great, and i think we all have expressed the opionion that help should go to those who really need it (not just financial help but help with getting back on your feet with work).

I cant say i am a fan of Mr Blair but on this point i agree whole heartedly.

 

[oblimov]

Cant help but think this wont work but the very fact that hes talking about it at least proves that the public must be noticing, like me, that things arent working

Very interesting debate with you all here btw was good we could talk about it from all angles and not turn it into a screaming match

 

[Pfy]

outstanding!
buddy a big for you, i've seen on so many of these threads where a really interesting discussion has gone down the pan because folk get a bit hot under the collar and dont see it and the thread deteriorates(sp??) in to a huge fight.
Nicely done

Um, thanks? :>

Yeah it does sound like a good idea. However with an election around the corner, I doubt it'll ever come about.

I like the idea of it though. Make the idea of going on the easily abuse benefits less appealing.

I like the idea of you can only take out what you put in. I.e you pay £6,000 tax over 3 years. You get benefits up to the total sum of say £4,000 (1/3). Obviously over a period of time.

Problem is however if you've never worked etc.

 

[Binky the Bomb]

Yeah, I got an info pack about this a while ago. It's te same plan Labour was supposed to implement shortly after the second election win. It didn't happen becasue they couldn't afford to hire the 2,000 civil servants who would do all the work to reform the system and keep it afloat whilst the changes were made.

In theory it can work. It just requires that everyone has to be re-evaluated within a 5 year period, plus new cases to be taken on as time goes on. It needs a centralised database somewhere, and has to be maintained upto the minute and be linked with other national databases to compare information and stop benefit fraud.

Total refit time was estimated at 3 years, plus retraining of all current staff, new standards to be implemeted (with a team of lawyers to make sure all is fair*). Estimated cost, give of take a few million, was £35 million pounds over a full 5 year period. As you can imagine, there were doubts about it.

*= Punchline to the gag.

You see, the govt are full of ideas on how to improve the service and availability. But if someone is willing to lie, bribe and cheat to get round it, then the system will always fail, fact. There is no real punishment if you get caught, except fines, which they can pay off with a small loan from the bank.
Inprisonment doesn't scare most of them as they see that as free bed, board, and food (they may not be far wrong there). Seems that only Draconian measures would have made the risk to great (charming eh).

Anyway, thats my small change added once more (now shutting up).

 

[Pfy]

Cant help but think this wont work but the very fact that hes talking about it at least proves that the public must be noticing, like me, that things arent working

Very interesting debate with you all here btw was good we could talk about it from all angles and not turn it into a screaming match

Sorry totally off topic but I've just noticed your title. I can't get buckfast down here ;<

Start up a business for people on benefits by shipping Buckfast to me ;> Win/Win.

 

[oblimov]

rofl

interesting thought,

 

[Chilly]

A good bit of advice - ignore anything said by any politician trying to get re-elected in teh very near future because its probably bullshit. The tories were talking about plans to improve classroom behavior and disipline, when the problem ahs nothing to do with the actual schools, its the way the kids are brought up etc...

Take it all with a pinch, nay, a handful of salt nd dont hold your breath.