On verge of WWIII?...

[noblok]

Also tbh wtf Internal Terrorism got to do with International one? Is not that BR in Italy bombed the shit outta of Austria or Germany, they fought an inside was against the government. Same goes for ETA and IRA etc.

The term international terrorism is misleading and I'd replace it with global terrorism. The term international terrorism could make it seem as if the terrorism in Gazah and Lebanon is belongs to the same category as the Al-Qaeda type of terrorism, as the groups are from a different 'nation' than the one they attack. Instead of internal terrorism I'd use partisan terrorism, as this expresses better what it's all about (i.e. bound to a certain territory with explicit political goals) and prevents confusion.

Gazah: Partisan terrorism. The suicide bombers from Gazah fight for a territory. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc don't attack outside of the territory they wish to conquer.

Western world: Global terrorism and partisan terrorism. Most of the 9/11 pilots (global terrorism) studied in the Western world. There is also partisan terrorism in some nations though, as you said yourself in your post.

 

[Lamp]

Israel has been constantly bombarding its neighbour for years now

No, not constantly.

And when they do it, its self-defence or retaliation for an attack on their homeland. They do not start aggression. Its the Arabs and Islamist antisemites who always start.

 

[Chronictank]

No, not constantly.

And when they do it, its self-defence or retaliation for an attack on their homeland. They do not start aggression. Its the Arabs and Islamist antisemites who always start.

so they bomb a country in "self defence" against countless civilians against a enemy they cant see..
right i see your point...
aswell as that comment being complete and utter crap with no factual evidence behind it, there has been back and forth being going on ever since ww2

 

[Tasslehoff]

so they bomb a country in "self defence" against countless civilians against a enemy they cant see..
right i see your point...

Seriously though, what would you have them do?
They have to at least try to bomb some of the places they know are terroristbases.
They can't just sit around doing nothing, they are in the middle of a war.

 

[Lamp]

so they bomb a country in "self defence" against countless civilians against a enemy they cant see..
right i see your point...

Yes, they bomb a country in self defence. The loss of civilian life is deeply regretful.

If you want it to end, give back the two Israeli soldiers you kidnapped. If you don't give them back, we'll continue to bomb the shit out of you. The math aint hard.

 

[Celestino]

You people who say Israel is doing the wrong thing.. If you had suicidebombers every second week, was used to people dying in your city all the time becauise of enemy military fractions bombing the streets, even having tried losing a familymember or a close friend to some terrorist-action and if you were hearing every day, some other countries politicians saying you didn't have a right to be a state, even to exist. Would you tell me, that you would just sit by, hoping that the terrorists would be taken out by their own governments?
Would you not see the retaliation as the right thing to do? Would you not be happy, to finally fight back?
Maybe you'd sit about using more "intelligent" ways of getting the terrorists.. But as long as there is no such thing, as long as that remains a fictive event, what other option do you have?

To a certain point I can agree with you, its understandable, but it doesn't make it right. Maybe I can say this coz I never experienced what you describe, but that fact on the other hand also grants me an unbiased point of view. Iam not saying the use of military in hunting down terrorists is a bad thing, but iam saying giving in to the urge of hatred built up over decades of mutual retaliation again and again and again is a bad thing.
If its about protecting your citizens from attacks then do just that, PROTECT, and nothing else. Don't occupy enemy territory, don't build stupid walls, keep ur tanks and missiles away from civilians and go for those really harming you instead of showing off how powerfull you are bringing more ppl up against you.
But as it is at the moment, Israel is NOT the victim, but is a part of what is going on there, just as the terrorits, both are to blame, none more none less.
The real victims are and will always be the people, be they jewish, muslim or whatever else their believes might be...

 

[Darzil]

The question in my mind is why does Hezbollah want Lebanon bombed, and why does Israel want a strong Hezbollah ?

The actions of Hezbollah are bound to cause Israeli retaliation, and they know this.

The actions of Israel are bound to result in huge recruitment into Hezbollah, and they know this.

Am I right in thinking this, or am I turning into Joor ?

Darzil

 

[Lamp]

To all the anti-Israelis here: I lived in Northern Israel for 6 months, a placed called Ayalet Hashachar, 8 miles south of the Lebanon border. I saw some pretty scary stuff, and I wasn't even close to the stuff thats happening now. When you've seen things with your own eyes, you might be able to separate fact from media bias.

 

[Chronictank]

Seriously though, what would you have them do?
They have to at least try to bomb some of the places they know are terroristbases.
They can't just sit around doing nothing, they are in the middle of a war.

what would i have done?
pulled out of the plaestine since thats the whole issue, leave the Jewish people who want to stay there in their homes rather than arrange a mass exodus further segregating communities, and not bomb the fuck out of people who have nothing to do with it all other than living in the wrong place.
Israel is performing terrorism by definition, Hesbollah is performing terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear

and i find it pathetic people support such behaviour to be very honest

 

[Chronictank]

Yes, they bomb a country in self defence. The loss of civilian life is deeply regretful.

If you want it to end, give back the two Israeli soldiers you kidnapped. If you don't give them back, we'll continue to bomb the shit out of you. The math aint hard.

far as i know i dont have any soldiers in my basement,
you are a prime example of why this situation is so bad
its me vs them if their point of view differs from your own skewed outlook on things

Lets remember that the 2 soldiers were kidnappen in retaliation to Israel pinching one from the other side.

Why? i think Drazil says it best

The question in my mind is why does Hezbollah want Lebanon bombed, and why does Israel want a strong Hezbollah ?

The actions of Hezbollah are bound to cause Israeli retaliation, and they know this.

The actions of Israel are bound to result in huge recruitment into Hezbollah, and they know this.

Darzil

So either Israel is lead by a moron, or he wants war. As i said before i think it is nothing to do with Lebannon, it's all about Syria

 

[Lamp]

In all wars, innocent people die. Civilians by their intrinsic nature, are always in the wrong place at the wrong time. Look at how many people died in the Blitz in WW2. In Vietnam. In Northern Ireland. Iraq. Cambodia. Somalia. The Balkan ethnic cleansing. Take your pick.

America killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese when they dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Negasaki. Yet people throw up their arms and go nuts cos a country which is SURROUNDED by enemies launches an attack on their homeland and - what - ? they're not supposed to do anything ?

Take a step back from the media and put all the information in context. Think.

P l e a s e.

 

[Lamp]

Lets remember that the 2 soldiers were kidnappen in retaliation to Israel pinching one from the other side.

Where's your authority for that information ?

 

[Chronictank]

In all wars, innocent people die. Civilians by their intrinsic nature, are always in the wrong place at the wrong time. Look at how many people died in the Blitz in WW2. In Vietnam. In Northern Ireland. Iraq. Cambodia. Somalia. The Balkan ethnic cleansing. Take your pick.

America killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese when they dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Negasaki. Yet people throw up their arms and go nuts cos a country which is SURROUNDED by enemies launches an attack on their homeland and - what - ? they're not supposed to do anything ?

Take a step back from the media and put all the information in context. Think.

P l e a s e.

so that all of a sudden makes it right?

 

[Tasslehoff]

what would i have done?
pulled out of the plaestine since thats the whole issue, leave the Jewish people who want to stay there in their homes rather than arrange a mass exodus further segregating communities, and not bomb the fuck out of people who have nothing to do with it all other than living in the wrong place.
Israel is performing terrorism by definition, Hesbollah is performing terrorism

and i find it pathetic people support such behaviour to be very honest

Great idea! Flee from the terrorists, making them succeed!
That is one thing that will stop terrorism for good!

Sorry for the sarcastic stuff, but your naive if you think the jews would be able to live among the palestinian people and even more naive if you think that leaving Israel won't furhter terrorism.


What if I came banging on your door, saying Turkey doesen't exist, and that the Vikings were there before the turkish people? Would you just say, ah that's right! And leave the country?

 

[Chronictank]

Great idea! Flee from the terrorists, making them succeed!
That is one thing that will stop terrorism for good!

Sorry for the sarcastic stuff, but your naive if you think the jews would be able to live among the palestinian people and even more naive if you think that leaving Israel won't furhter terrorism.

once again, what is your definition of terrorism
If they are at war, then neither side is a terrorist party.
If they arent at war, then Israel is just as much a terroist as the people they are fighting (see definition above)

What if I came banging on your door, saying Turkey doesen't exist, and that the Vikings were there before the turkish people? Would you just say, ah that's right! And leave the country?

Thats what britain did to the populous of palestine when they gave the land to Israel in the first place

I am not anti-Israeli, nor am i Pro-Hesbollah
But the fact of the matter is, Hesbollah is part of the government for a reason, people voted for them for a reason, and it would be far more productive to resolve these issues rather than give them even more support.

Is it really that naive of me to think they can get along? people managed on the gaza strip for years so i dont see why not.
Turkey have managed it for 100's of years so once again i dont see why not

I have been in discussions like this time and again, and tbh there is no real outcome. You are not going to waver from your beliefs regardless of the argument put in front of you, i am not going to accept that what they are doing is right, because in my opinion it is not and is very counter productive if peace is the aim. However in this case i dont think it is

As for getting the soldiers back, do you honestly believe they are going to be released now that half the country has been flattened.
Hell they are probably dead already and Hesbollah is using the opertunity to gain support

Anyway good luck with it, i hope it doesnt turn out as badly as it inevitably is, this dicussion has run its course i think as were cycling over the same arguments so i wont be checking it anymore

 

[Darzil]

once again, what is your definition of terrorism
If they are at war, then neither side is a terrorist party.
If they arent at war, then Israel is just as much a terroist as the people they are fighting

My view : Terrorism is the use of terror tactics to reach an objective.

In this current conflict, both sides are terrorists.

Darzil

 

[Celestino]

but your naive if you think the jews would be able to live among the palestinian people

Oh, so lets have a Deathmatch and see who survives ? Great idea, i'll shoot my neighbor coz I can't stand the music he's playing ...
If he's naive then ur about the earn the award for stupidity

 

[Tasslehoff]

Oh, so lets have a Deathmatch and see who survives ? Great idea, i'll shoot my neighbor coz I can't stand the music he's playing ...
If he's naive then ur about the earn the award for stupidity

How did I earn that reward? For stating that lifelong enemies won't be able to live amongst each other?
When did I ever mention a Deathmatch with your neighbour because of his music?
And what the fuck are you trying to say?

 

[Celestino]

Its simple really, if lifelong enemies are not able to live amongst each other then they have to learn it.
And if there are those that can't learn it then u got a police and a prison. But first you need to eliminate the conflict to get to that point.
What is the alternative ? You ask them to leave ? or drive them out of their homes at gunpoint if they don't go so they join up with the terrorists and really become ur enemy ?
Normal ppl don't just blow themselfs up for no reason, eliminate that reason or the deathmatch i mentioned will be the final outcome.
If you manage that step, you can start learning how to get along with each other and maybe the next generation won't have to grow up with a lifelong enemy ?
Is it that hard to grasp ? A little bit of idealism as a reminder for the general direction isn't going to hurt

 

[Gahn]

Their country, such as London and Madrid?


Actually, Derrida says a few interesting things on this subject in: Borradori, Giovanna, Philosophy in a time of terror, Dialogues with Jürgen Habermas and Jacques Derrida. However, for the sake of the discussion I decided not to drag this thread too much off-topic .

U do actually think there would be less attacks if they left alone quiet planning their war?
I think not, they started a war, we sadly need to pick the gauntlet or be slapped.

 

[Gahn]

The term international terrorism is misleading and I'd replace it with global terrorism. The term international terrorism could make it seem as if the terrorism in Gazah and Lebanon is belongs to the same category as the Al-Qaeda type of terrorism, as the groups are from a different 'nation' than the one they attack. Instead of internal terrorism I'd use partisan terrorism, as this expresses better what it's all about (i.e. bound to a certain territory with explicit political goals) and prevents confusion.

Gazah: Partisan terrorism. The suicide bombers from Gazah fight for a territory. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc don't attack outside of the territory they wish to conquer.

Western world: Global terrorism and partisan terrorism. Most of the 9/11 pilots (global terrorism) studied in the Western world. There is also partisan terrorism in some nations though, as you said yourself in your post.

The suicide bombers from Gazah do actually attack a foreign country, it's called Israel, same goes for Hezbollah or u missed y Israel started war actions on Lebanon?

 

[Tasslehoff]

Its simple really, if lifelong enemies are not able to live amongst each other then they have to learn it.
And if there are those that can't learn it then u got a police and a prison. But first you need to eliminate the conflict to get to that point.
What is the alternative ? You ask them to leave ? or drive them out of their homes at gunpoint if they don't go so they join up with the terrorists and really become ur enemy ?
Normal ppl don't just blow themselfs up for no reason, eliminate that reason or the deathmatch i mentioned will be the final outcome.
If you manage that step, you can start learning how to get along with each other and maybe the next generation won't have to grow up with a lifelong enemy ?
Is it that hard to grasp ? A little bit of idealism as a reminder for the general direction isn't going to hurt

I don't think you get it to be honest. If they live together, it won't just be small crimes being committed, there'd be fights every day, everywhere, and it wouldn't just be your normal pubfights.
It would be fights with guns and such, it's not like the police would just walk in and put 10 people with bombs and guns in prison. That'd take lives every day.
Your idealism is fine, I get what your saying, it's not like it's rocketscience.
But do you get what I'm saying? It's easy enough to sit in your cozy home, eating cheesepops and sit and spew idealism out, but reality doesen't work like that. Simple as that.
Now I will stop discussing this matter, the two of us will never agree on anything.. :9

 

[Thadius]

Hmm wait

Havent the British been at it with the French for years?

But now we seem to be best buds with them, it would be impossible to live amongst them!

 

[Tasslehoff]

Hmm wait

Havent the British been at it with the French for years?

But now we seem to be best buds with them, it would be impossible to live amongst them!

Yeah, and Danes make jokes about Swedes, but it's not quite the same.
Were you the target of terror from the french every week? Did the french want to live in your country because of a religious reason?
It's something entirely different. But as I say again, it's easy enough to be idealistic when we're sitting at our homes behind a computer, saying you have tried just the same. but you haven't Thad

 

[noblok]

The suicide bombers from Gazah do actually attack a foreign country, it's called Israel, same goes for Hezbollah or u missed y Israel started war actions on Lebanon?

Yes, that is exactly what I said. However, they share more with the likes of ETA than they do with the likes of Al-Qaeda. As a matter of fact, Hezbollah has denounced 9/11 (and more).

Therefore the distinction made should not be one of national vs international, but partisan (territory-bound) vs global.

 

[Eeben]

Now that´s a prime example why the world is never ever gonna live together in peace. Some people are doing some crazy shit, killing others. Why? Because (of course) they´re nuts. Riight!
TBH that´s ignorant.

so you think your nornal in the head when you go to a bus full of women an kids an blow them all up?

just call me ignorant but there is something fucking wrong in the head with those ppl:touch:

 

[Celestino]

Look its not about beeing idealistic, and i already regret throwing in the word as u seem to like it. All it does is give u a hint at where you should be aiming. You might not get there in a straight line, you might even have to turn around from time to time, but as long as u're going back in the right direction in the end it's fine...
Now, it really might be easy to say that from here, but as i said earlier, from behind my computer in my protected neighborhood in a country that has not seen a war in my lifetime iam in a unique position allowing me to see things unbiased.
Now, I certainly don't expect wonders, its easy to hate, especially in a grp.
But if you take away the reasons for this hate bit by bit year by year ppl will learn to get along.
Iam not saying to start with putting them into the same village and see what happens, but iam talking about really trying to get along, stop the retaliation circle, take away their reason to blow themselfs up, then start to find common ground.
Its not like its something new, ppl are working on just that, but as long as there are idiots trying to make one side look like the victim and others falling for them it won't matter.
There is always a way if ppl just start lookin for it instead of looking for a scapegoat

 

[noblok]

U do actually think there would be less attacks if they left alone quiet planning their war?

Yes, I do. The thing is that terrorism doesn't need any infrastructure. They can meet everywhere, they can train/study everywhere, they can gain money everywhere and they can make bombs everywhere. The only thing they need, are a lot of people angry with "the West" who want to join them. By attacking Iraq and by doing what Israel is doing at the moment, we're doing exactly that.

Edit: I'm not saying they should be left alone. I'm saying that the way we're trying to weaken them is the wrong way. The organisation should be taken on, not country x or y.

 

[Thorwyn]

@Eeben

Terror is the war of the weak against the strong. War is the terror of the strong against the weak.

I`m not trying to justify terrorism. However, I`m not willing to just slap the "retarded" label over them because I´m having a hard time understanding their intentions.

 

[Celestino]

so you think your nornal in the head when you go to a bus full of women an kids an blow them all up?

just call me ignorant but there is something fucking wrong in the head with those ppl:touch:

Define normal, Ppl can be driven to a lot of things, without rationally grasping what they are doing. Just think about the milgram experiment or go back 65 years in history. We are influenced by society and those around us as well by what is happening to us. Beeing misled is easy, even beeing misled into extremism is not that hard under certain circumstances.
I won't call u ignorant for calling those ppl insane, coz somehow they are, but try to see that sanity is a fragile thing when put to test.