On verge of WWIII?...

[Tasslehoff]

There is such a thing: counter-terrorism. You don't fight street gangs by bombing the district either, do you? Research, infiltration, and prevention is the key, not killing innocent citizens.

Another good example of how you can't wage war on terrorism is Afghanistan. Do any of you believe that occupying Afhanistan helped the "war on terrorism"?

And finding said Palestinian terrorists, in their own country, where they are seen as heroes will of course succeed!
Penetrating a terrorist organisation is not an easy thing, what do you think it is? You come in as a jew saying: Hey! My name is Muhammed, where are the terrorists? I just want to join them!

Not blaming you for saying that or anything, but I just strongly doubt you're able to put yourself in their situation and furthermore I think you have an unrealistic on how well counterterrorism work.. And do you seriously not believe that they are trying with counterterrorism?

 

[Thorwyn]

Okay, so seriously, your parents has always told you, that you are not to take the bus or walk the big roads because there is a slight chance you'll get blown to pieces.
Then you see some Israelian soldiers getting killed. Then you see a bomb getting dropped somewhere in some city in Israel. Then your mother's best friends daugther is killed.
You know all the people that died were due to Palestinian terrorists. Yet you wouldn't place any blame on them
You'd just sit around, thinking: There's nothing to do, not reason to start a fight. Would you blame your government for bombing locations they thought were militant?

You need to start earlier!
The question is: why ARE they bombing busses and stuff? If you manage to find a decent answer to this question which is still leaving you in the position of the victim, then you´re entitled to justify a war. If you can´t, then you might as well transfer your scenario to a mother and a child during the US bombimgs of Berlin in 1945.

 

[Tasslehoff]

You need to start earlier!
The question is: why ARE they bombing busses and stuff? If you manage to find a decent answer to this question which is still leaving you in the position of the victim, then you´re entitled to justify a war. If you can´t, then you might as well transfer your scenario to a mother and a child during the US bombimgs of Berlin in 1945.

Okay, we can agree that there has always been a war between jewish and muslim people over Jerusalem and the countries around them right?
At some point the Muslim people managed to win the fight.. Kill so many jews they had to flee, I'm not saying the jews would not have done the same.
Now, the land was won through blood. The jews were either given the land back, or got the land. Still, no one had a fairer claim to the land than the other.
Okay, muslims(saying this instead of palestianians, 'cause they have not always been palestianians, but also some other forces) had a stronger force in the time where it was more acceptable to wage war, therefore their claim is the right one, that's where you're going right? I'll give you that, they won the last war, and killed lots of jews.

 

[noblok]

And finding said Palestinian terrorists, in their own country, where they are seen as heroes will of course succeed! [...]

I never said it would be easy. Though it would be more effective than striking out at innocent civilians, which only means more propaganda for the terrorists and thus more terrorists.

I didn't say they weren't trying with counter-terrorism either, but rather that they should just stick to that. The military actions against civilians do more harm than good. I refer to my other post: you don't fight street gangs by bombing the district. Because a) killing innocent people is wrong and b) this would only result in more anger and vengeful feelings from streetgangs towards the government.

This also means that you will probably never be able to completely eliminate terrorism, just as you'll never eliminate street gangs. I suppose that there are social-economic factors which may reduce the number of terrorists though (yet again, as with street gangs).

 

[Eeben]

why ARE they bombing busses and stuff?

because they are fuckt in the head?

They also cant stop now because then the terroists will think they won

 

[Tasslehoff]

I never said it would be easy. Though it would be more effective than striking out at innocent civilians, which only means more propaganda for the terrorists and thus more terrorists.

I didn't say they weren't trying with counter-terrorism either, but rather that they should just stick to that. The military actions against civilians do more harm than good. I refer to my other post: you don't fight street gangs by bombing the district. Because a) killing innocent people is wrong and b) this would only result in more anger and vengeful feelings from streetgangs towards the government.

This also means that you will probably never be able to completely eliminate terrorism, just as you'll never eliminate street gangs. I suppose that there are social-economic factors which may reduce the number of terrorists though (yet again, as with street gangs).

To be honest mate, I wish it was as easy as that.
But sticking to that has proven not to be enough. The people still get bombed every second week, they still have to go send their boys and girls to the borders, to protect the country.
It would be great if you could just sit back, and wait for the counterterrorism to stop the terrorists.
I do get what you're saying, that it creates more terrorists and so, but don't you think that terrorists will keep on bombing, when the people think they'll go to heaven after they have made a kamikaze, they get worshipped like gods afterwards.
Maybe they have to see their hurting their own families, by doing terrorism. Maybe not, but the Israeli feel like they have to do something else than just sit around taking bombs to the head...

 

[noblok]

Would you do the same with street gangs? If not: what's the big difference between the two? As far as I can see, the only thing you could try here is motivation, but that's a moot point. I believe that the social-economical factors in both cases are a lot more important than the religious aspect. After all, a 'true muslim' also accepts the teachings of the Jewish and christian books (Talmud, Torah, Bible and probably some more I don't know of).

 

[Eeben]

Would you do the same with street gangs? If not: what's the big difference between the two? As far as I can see, the only thing you could try here is motivation, but that's a moot point. I believe that the social-economical factors in both cases are a lot more important than the religious aspect. After all, a 'true muslim' also accepts the teachings of the Jewish and christian books (Talmud, Torah, Bible and probably some more I don't know of).

is this why you cant have any christian religious stuff iwith you when going to saudi?

 

[Tasslehoff]

Would you do the same with street gangs? If not: what's the big difference between the two? As far as I can see, the only thing you could try here is motivation, but that's a moot point. I believe that the social-economical factors in both cases are a lot more important than the religious aspect. After all, a 'true muslim' also accepts the teachings of the Jewish and christian books (Talmud, Torah, Bible and probably some more I don't know of).

True muslims are not that important, because they are not the ones making the terrorists become people to worship. True muslims are great, but you see posters hanging on the walls, with pictures of the suicidebombers.Because they are seen as gods, and these shows other that bombing is a great thing to do, and you will earn your family great respect if you do.
I don't get the comparison with street gangs in any way. This is a completely different situation, try again to refresh my mind on how religious fanatics are the same as teenagers trying to be cool.

 

[noblok]

I meant the more serious street gangs, as the ones they have over in the USA. The maffia-like ones that go around asking for 'taxes' and shooting people. They are comparable because they:

a) are criminal.
b) have no real infrastructure.
c) (mostly) get their motivation from their social-economic situation.
d) are more or less supported in their actions by their environment.
e) are organised in the way of a network, rather than a strict organisation (which means that killing the 'leader' won't help as someone else will just take his place).


To Eeben: I wouldn't know, but the head of the imams of Belgium claims that muslims have to accept these writings. I can only assume that he is right.

 

[Tasslehoff]

I meant the more serious street gangs, as the ones they have over in the USA. The maffia-like ones that go around asking for 'taxes' and shooting people. They are comparable because they:

a) are criminal.
b) have no real infrastructure.
c) (mostly) get their motivation from their social-economic situation.
d) are more or less supported in their actions by their environment.
e) are organised in the way of a network, rather than a strict organisation (which means that killing the 'leader' won't help as someone else will just take his place).

Well, these street gangs do it because they need the money. Suicide bombers do it because they want to hurt the people.
People in street gangs do crimes often, and therefore the police can get witnesses to point them out, or find people that know them and who wants to help them.
Suicide bombers could be anybody functioning in the society and have two identities, making them impossible to find before it's too late. And by then you can only try to strike at the network.

You can put a guy from a street gang in prison after he has done something, what would you do to a suicide bomber... Piss on his bones? I don't think he cares, and it wouldn't be quite proper

 

[Eeben]

what would you do to a suicide bomber... Piss on his bones? I don't think he cares, and it wouldn't be quite proper

rofl

 

[noblok]

Well, these street gangs do it because they need the money. Suicide bombers do it because they want to hurt the people.

As I stated: both have a social-economical motivation and are more or less supported by the environment. The street gangs want the money because in the eyes of their environment that'll make their life 'succeeded'. Suicide bombers want to kill people because that'll make their life 'succeeded'.

People in street gangs do crimes often, and therefore the police can get witnesses to point them out, or find people that know them and who wants to help them. Suicide bombers could be anybody functioning in the society and have two identities, making them impossible to find before it's too late. And by then you can only try to strike at the network.

Hmm, true for suicide bombers, but suicide bombing is not the only way of terrorism. Hezbollah seems to prefer shooting rockets at least, Iraq terrorists use 'normal bombs' too. Even with suicide bombing it's a bit of a moot point as most suicide bombers are member of a terrorist organization and for obvious reasons not every member of said organization blows himself to pieces. This makes it possible to infiltrate, although possibly it'll be harder to do.

You can put a guy from a street gang in prison after he has done something, what would you do to a suicide bomber...

Again only applicable for suicide bombers and I suppose that with enough infiltration these can be arrested before they get to the act and then be taken to court.

 

[Thorwyn]

because they are fuckt in the head?

Now that´s a prime example why the world is never ever gonna live together in peace. Some people are doing some crazy shit, killing others. Why? Because (of course) they´re nuts. Riight!
TBH that´s ignorant. You don´t even try to understand their position and their reasons why they have to resort to actions like this. They´re certainly not doing all this for the fun of it. Just like Israel isn´t doing all this out of the blue. There are reasons behind all those actions and it´s far from easy to even remotely understand why both sides are reacting in the way they do. So far, the only true thing to say is, that neither the muslim, nor the jewish side is 100% innocent. There are warmongers and idiots on BOTH sides and there is no right or wrong.

is this why you cant have any christian religious stuff iwith you when going to saudi?

Who f*cking cares? The so called liberal world isn´t the promised land. The right to say "Bush sucks" without getting shot isn´t the ultimate freedom. If you´re going to Sweden, you won´t be able to buy proper beer in a pub. Fair enough.. their country, their rules. We´ve got our rules. Muslims are not allowed to marry more than one woman over here. Big deal.
Same thing: If we´re not allowed to bring a bible into their lands, it´s considered an act or barbarism. If they´re not allowed to transfer their living habits here, it´s only natural. See the dilemma?

@Tasselhoff

Yes, we agree that there has always been a conflict over the region. And that´s exactly my point here. There is no right and no wrong. Currently, Israel has the upper hand and they´re not too shy to use it, by destroying civil houses in the critical areas (nobody dares to classify this as "terror".. wonder why). All I want to achieve is to get a tiiiiiny bit of understanding why the "other" side is reacing like they´re reacting. If we´re reducing them to a bunch of retarded terrorists, then we fail to understand the actual problem by miles.
Can we agree here too?

 

[Ctuchik]

And they gave up. But the brightest one down there said: "Hey Denmark is the capital of Sweden. Hmm . . . (At this point he is scratching his head) . . . ,this says that the capital of Sweden is called Stockholm. YEY, LETS BOMB STOCKHOLM!!!"

Best thing that could happen was clean energy so we could leave to lowlife losers alone. Sad that the US NEEDS their resources down there

yeah down with Stockholm!!

djävla 08'or :<




/edit: or maybe not, then i dont have anything left to whine at

 

[Tasslehoff]

@Tasselhoff

Yes, we agree that there has always been a conflict over the region. And that´s exactly my point here. There is no right and no wrong. Currently, Israel has the upper hand and they´re not too shy to use it, by destroying civil houses in the critical areas (nobody dares to classify this as "terror".. wonder why). All I want to achieve is to get a tiiiiiny bit of understanding why the "other" side is reacing like they´re reacting. If we´re reducing them to a bunch of retarded terrorists, then we fail to understand the actual problem by miles.
Can we agree here too?

Thing is, I'm kinda biased considering my mum is Israelian
But I do get your point, that there has always been a conflict, and I think Israel did try something, by giving away Gaza.
And of course all countries have some nutjobs, it's just incredible amount Palestina has them in

 

[xxManiacxx]

Getting kinda boring to read about Israels latest bombing on country xxx now.

 

[Lamp]

Like cristiano Ronaldo's flame?

We're talking about the Israel-Lebanon war here, not fucking football.

 

[Lamp]

You people who say Israel is doing the wrong thing.. If you had suicidebombers every second week, was used to people dying in your city all the time becauise of enemy military fractions bombing the streets, even having tried losing a familymember or a close friend to some terrorist-action and if you were hearing every day, some other countries politicians saying you didn't have a right to be a state, even to exist. Would you tell me, that you would just sit by, hoping that the terrorists would be taken out by their own governments?
Would you not see the retaliation as the right thing to do? Would you not be happy, to finally fight back?
Maybe you'd sit about using more "intelligent" ways of getting the terrorists.. But as long as there is no such thing, as long as that remains a fictive event, what other option do you have?

 

[Kathal]

not fucking football.

Umm, fucking football. Now that's a mans sport
Well basically Israel is a buffer zone between the Middle East and the west.

 

[Lamp]

Getting kinda boring to read about Israels latest bombing on country xxx now.

Good. With a bit of luck we'll not be reading any more of your ultra constructive comments here then.

 

[Gahn]

So, shall we bomb US, ENG, DEN, GER, FRA, SPA and ITA as well? I mean.. there are terrorists merrily living in those countries and we´re not doing anything against them because nobody even KNOWS that they´re terrorists?

Lets take a look back at the history in this region. Israel was artificially "installed" right on the territory of Palestinia. Would you - living in Denmark - accept it if, say GW Bush decides to create a new country right in your homeland all of a sudden?

The thing is, we need to separate the things we´re fighting for and against. We (as in "the oh so civilized West") must not repeat the mistake we made when we attacked Iraq. Hell.. this Saddam has some WMD and isn´t cooperating with the UNO.. lets bomb him. Turned out that there actually wasn´t any WMD, but hey, the bloody dictator is removed, so grats to us for this act of humanity aka liberating a country. Wasn´t the reason to go there in the first place, but tehehe.. lets not talk about that. Iraq isn´t one inch safer or more civilized by now, but who cares?

Israel doesn´t care about terrorists. At least not about the terrorists that are threatening the Western civilization i.e. Al Qaeda. They´re fighting for the domination in the region and the rather stupid reaction of the palestinian side makes it pretty easy to justify a war like this.

If there´s one thing that the world should have learned by now, then it´s the fact that you CAN NOT fight terrorism with bombs and weapons. It´s impossible. Bombing other countries who´re rumoured to support terrorists is nothing more than a completely blind, helpless act or wrath. It´s not the solution and will never be. For the first time in the history of our culture, we can´t win a fight just by firepower. THIS fight has to be fought on much more subtle and intelligent areas.

just my 5c whatever it´s worth.

They are fighting for their survival since the dawn of time -.-

Also tbh wtf Internal Terrorism got to do with International one? Is not that BR in Italy bombed the shit outta of Austria or Germany, they fought an inside was against the government. Same goes for ETA and IRA etc.

 

[Gahn]

There is such a thing: counter-terrorism. You don't fight street gangs by bombing the district either, do you? Research, infiltration, and prevention is the key, not killing innocent citizens.

Another good example of how you can't wage war on terrorism is Afghanistan. Do any of you believe that occupying Afhanistan helped the "war on terrorism"?

Ofc it did, now Talebans must fight in THEIR country. They can't use Drugs incoming to finance Terrorists Learning Fields etc etc etc.

 

[Lamp]

You cannot defeat terrorism per se.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is being naive.

As long as there are fathers preaching hatred to their children, as long as there is religious intollerance, as long as there are people who twist religious doctrines to suit their own warped perspectives, then terrorism will continue.

You can bomb terrorist bases. You can invade countries. You can kill terrorist leaders and take out terrorist cells. But all you obtain is a temporary respite. Nothing more.

 

[Gahn]

You cannot defeat terrorism per se.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is being naive.

As long as there are fathers preaching hatred to their children, as long as there is religious intollerance, as long as there are people who twist religious doctrines to suit their own warped perspectives, then terrorism will continue.

You can bomb terrorist bases. You can invade countries. You can kill terrorist leaders and take out terrorist cells. But all you obtain is a temporary respite. Nothing more.

If the temporary respite is that they got troubles over there and can't act free hands in my country WHILE we try to solve the problem (IF it's solvable btw), i'm happy tbh ^^

 

[Chronictank]

Thing is, I'm kinda biased considering my mum is Israelian
But I do get your point, that there has always been a conflict, and I think Israel did try something, by giving away Gaza.
And of course all countries have some nutjobs, it's just incredible amount Palestina has them in

im sorry but every argument you have brought up can be reversed, without exception BOTH sides have been at it for years and years. You say people walk in fear of being blown up by a suicide bomber, the oposite walk in fear of a air stike wiping out the whole block. Israel has been constantly bombarding its neighbour for years now, just because its in the papers doesnt mean it's not happening.

You are saying flattening whole cities is going to improve matters?, of course it isn't, as highlighted in this thread it will simply fuel the hate towards Israel, people previously indifferent will side towards extremist parties.
what you have to ask yourself is why?, why did hesbollah get seats in the government in the first place?, why do people feel they have no choice but to blow themselves up?

thorwyn touched on this before and is spot on.
If you keep bombing a country, can you honestly expect them to sit back and do nothing?

It's because people make no effort to see the other side of the fence (like you are currently) that makes it so easy to paint a picture of hate

Umm, fucking football. Now that's a mans sport
Well basically Israel is a buffer zone between the Middle East and the west.

that would be Turkey tbh

 

[Tasslehoff]

im sorry but every argument you have brought up can be reversed, without exception BOTH sides have been at it for years and years. You say people walk in fear of being blown up by a suicide bomber, the oposite walk in fear of a air stike wiping out the whole block. Israel has been constantly bombarding its neighbour for years now, just because its in the papers doesnt mean it's not happening.

You are saying flattening whole cities is going to improve matters?, of course it isn't, as highlighted in this thread it will simply fuel the hate towards Israel, people previously indifferent will side towards extremist parties.
what you have to ask yourself is why?, why did hesbollah get seats in the government in the first place?, why do people feel they have no choice but to blow themselves up?

thorwyn touched on this before and is spot on.
If you keep bombing a country, can you honestly expect them to sit back and do nothing?

It's because people make no effort to see the other side of the fence (like you are currently) that makes it so easy to paint a picture of hate


that would be Turkey tbh

It is simply an evil circle, everytime there is some type of peace down there, some nutjob thinks it'd be great to place a bomb somewhere.
Then Israel bombs back, thing is they just have bigger bombs and more organised military, than the terrorist fractions.

But still, Israelian forces aim for military targets. Palestianian or other suicide bombers don't.. I think there is a big difference.

 

[Chronictank]

It is simply an evil circle, everytime there is some type of peace down there, some nutjob thinks it'd be great to place a bomb somewhere.
Then Israel bombs back, thing is they just have bigger bombs and more organised military, than the terrorist fractions.

But still, Israelian forces aim for military targets. Palestianian or other suicide bombers don't.. I think there is a big difference.

i beg to differ tbh based on rescent events, i previously thought they did but watching the goings on and the justifications broadcast on the news its nothing more than an attempt to permanantly cripple the country and its infrastructure. But we cant do anything about it really, personally i think it's just a new leader of a country flexing some military muscle

 

[old.Tohtori]

Am i the only one who finds the use of the word "terrorists" solely on suicide bombers and such a bit...err...[insert appropriate word here].

Afterall, even during the crusades, "terrorists" were the ones who the crusaders were against.

I dunno...this whole war thing ain't my cup f tea i guess..

 

[noblok]

Ofc it did, now Talebans must fight in THEIR country. They can't use Drugs incoming to finance Terrorists Learning Fields etc etc etc.

Their country, such as London and Madrid?

Am i the only one who finds the use of the word "terrorists" solely on suicide bombers and such a bit...err...[insert appropriate word here].

Actually, Derrida says a few interesting things on this subject in: Borradori, Giovanna, Philosophy in a time of terror, Dialogues with Jürgen Habermas and Jacques Derrida. However, for the sake of the discussion I decided not to drag this thread too much off-topic .