ok

[Tranquil-]

"First some facts about scouts :-
Has to spec 3 lines to be effective (shield, weap and longbow)
Get 2*level spec points.
Scouts can only wield small shields.
Dex is primary attribute (raises every level)

Now lets look at a comparable shield specced armsman:-
Only has to spec 2 lines (shield and weap).
Can use small/medium and large shields.
Dex is tertiary attribute (raises every 3rd level)

Now lets compare lvl20 Scout and Armsman (assuming both chars are Britons) :-
Scout will have 90ish dex.
Armsman will have 70ish dex.
Armsman can have 20 in shield and 19 in weap at 20.
Scout (I assume will keep long bow close to lvl) will have to compromise and have lower shield and weap. 20 bow, 14 shield, 12 slash (taunt+detaunt) works.

So. At level 20, the Armsman will already have a chance to block of 5% + (20*0.5%) = 15%
Scouts chance to block will be 5% + (14*0.5%) = 12%

High Dex is not (and I played a Lurikeen shield champ with LOADS of dex, so I know this to be true) going to compensate for spec points in shield. And definately not 3% imho."

- Why would you want to compare the classes at lvl 20?
I didn't even group at lvl 20. The armsman is much better groupwise at low levels, that is exactly why there are so many misinformed people later in the levels. Compare at 50 since this is when most classes compare stats, rince and repeat. Then the armsman with 75 dex has got 85 dex and the scout with 90ish will have 115, this is without items, and a scout will normally have gear with +dex items. Armsman not.

"Now, the armsman can also use a large shield at this level, and can therefore block attacks from 3 mobs. Meanwhile the scout is stuck with a small shield (blocks 1 mob). Also the armsman has a much higher specced weapon (and is on a higher dmg table) and is much better positioned to take the aggro off or beat down. Scouts suck in melee compared to armsman."

- The small shield is much faster than the large shield, and if the mobs aren't attacking at the EXACT same time it will block the blows with a higher rate. I have blocked attacks by dualwielding mobs, and blocked both blows. And what has the melee damage of the scout to do with this? I know it sucks. Guard doesn't draw aggro. Did you need something to add there just because you think the scout sucks?

"So I think all in all, I'll have the armsman stick guard on me if you don't mind"

- Mkay, I still want the scout to stick his guard on me mkay. Oh, and I don't mind.

"(I class melee as the ability to deal AND take damage)."

- Soo... an assasin isn't meleeing?

(Rip my arguement apart with what? A wooden stick? I make nicer cutting edges with my blunt arrows. Oooh, metaphores)

Thankyou...


(If answers doesn't come as often as normally it's because I'm on dialup and I'm not on as much as I use to.)

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by Tranquil
<snip>
- The small shield is much faster than the large shield, and if the mobs aren't attacking at the EXACT same time it will block the blows with a higher rate. I have blocked attacks by dualwielding mobs, and blocked both blows.
<snip>

lol

a small shield isn't faster than a medium or large shield. Since when do shields have speed ???? The only differences between shield sizes are that larger can block more mobs and do more damage with shield styles. Thats it.

Each and every time you are attacked, a roll is made to determine if you block that attack, based on shield spec and dex (and possibly some other modifiers). If you are attacked several times in a short space of time, the chance to block is equal for each hit on you (a roll is made for each hit), and as shields have no delay (unlike weapons) you either block a hit or you don't. You will not block more or block 'faster' with small/medium or large shields of equal cons/quality etc.

I guess youre a scout, so you will naturally big up your own class. I don't play any class exclusively, but it is obvious to me that you want the biggest and baddest tank guarding you wherever possible. The scout guard is a ghetto guard imho, and I have explained why. If you want to believe your guard is superior to that of a equal cons shield specced fighter, then be my guest. But you are only kidding yourself.

 

[old.Sirex_85]

U know ppl trying to say that scouts can block just as good as tanks makes me laugh ur not good tanks and I dont mind havin 1 scout in group to pull becasue they can do some good dmg with bow but when healers get aggroed i would prefer to have tank instead of scouts... and stop trying to compare scouts to tanks in RvE there not even in the same league as tanks[polearm tanks rule]

 

[Tranquil-]

I think I have to laugh, you don't know about difference in shield speeds?

Shield Types: The type of shield being used determines the delay of the attack and the damage done. So a small shield is very fast to attack but does not do nearly as much damage as the slow heater shield.

This is taken straight from the scout team leader. The attack speed also determines the time from a melee attack has been finished to a block can be made. Get some facts, not just what you think.

 

[Tranquil-]

Sirex, you have no clue about what you are talking about.

U know ppl trying to say that scouts can block just as good as tanks makes me laugh (I laugh at you, Sirex) ur not good tanks (scouts suck at tanking so go do your job, and make the tanks to their job and get that aggro) and I dont mind havin 1 scout in group to pull becasue they can do some good dmg with bow (Earlier you said that scouts didn't do good damage) but when healers get aggroed i would prefer to have tank instead of scouts... (Hell I don't want the job as a aggrostealer, have I said so in a previous post? Tell me where?) and stop trying to compare scouts to tanks in RvE there not even in the same league as tanks[polearm tanks rule] (Stop smoking your socks, Sirex.)




(I just think I blocked all his sentences, must be my dex.)

 

[Olgark]

Originally posted by Sirex_85
Well ive read all of the posts and i did say i dont mind having 1 scout in a group... but in the past ive been in groups with 3 or 4 scouts and either they cant do enough damage or they get killed to very quick and when there gettin healed they take alot of the healers power because they cant take a lot of damage.I dont like scouts and infs are a strange classs that u dont see loads of.I do know about scouts my bro as 1 and what im saying is true and at least try and get a group with 4 scouts in it and healers and see what happens? it wont be nice

If the scouts know their class and how to share agro you maybe surpprised at what you can kill and at how fast you do it.
Failing that come to Midgard play a Hunter and never look back Cause they are one awsome class to play.

 

[old.ElDiablo]

Originally posted by Tranquil
"First some facts about scouts :-
Has to spec 3 lines to be effective (shield, weap and longbow)
Get 2*level spec points.
Scouts can only wield small shields.
Dex is primary attribute (raises every level)

Now lets look at a comparable shield specced armsman:-
Only has to spec 2 lines (shield and weap).
Can use small/medium and large shields.
Dex is tertiary attribute (raises every 3rd level)

Now lets compare lvl20 Scout and Armsman (assuming both chars are Britons) :-
Scout will have 90ish dex.
Armsman will have 70ish dex.
Armsman can have 20 in shield and 19 in weap at 20.
Scout (I assume will keep long bow close to lvl) will have to compromise and have lower shield and weap. 20 bow, 14 shield, 12 slash (taunt+detaunt) works.

So. At level 20, the Armsman will already have a chance to block of 5% + (20*0.5%) = 15%
Scouts chance to block will be 5% + (14*0.5%) = 12%

High Dex is not (and I played a Lurikeen shield champ with LOADS of dex, so I know this to be true) going to compensate for spec points in shield. And definately not 3% imho."

- Why would you want to compare the classes at lvl 20?
I didn't even group at lvl 20. The armsman is much better groupwise at low levels, that is exactly why there are so many misinformed people later in the levels. Compare at 50 since this is when most classes compare stats, rince and repeat. Then the armsman with 75 dex has got 85 dex and the scout with 90ish will have 115, this is without items, and a scout will normally have gear with +dex items. Armsman not.

"Now, the armsman can also use a large shield at this level, and can therefore block attacks from 3 mobs. Meanwhile the scout is stuck with a small shield (blocks 1 mob). Also the armsman has a much higher specced weapon (and is on a higher dmg table) and is much better positioned to take the aggro off or beat down. Scouts suck in melee compared to armsman."

- The small shield is much faster than the large shield, and if the mobs aren't attacking at the EXACT same time it will block the blows with a higher rate. I have blocked attacks by dualwielding mobs, and blocked both blows. And what has the melee damage of the scout to do with this? I know it sucks. Guard doesn't draw aggro. Did you need something to add there just because you think the scout sucks?

"So I think all in all, I'll have the armsman stick guard on me if you don't mind"

- Mkay, I still want the scout to stick his guard on me mkay. Oh, and I don't mind.

"(I class melee as the ability to deal AND take damage)."

- Soo... an assasin isn't meleeing?

(Rip my arguement apart with what? A wooden stick? I make nicer cutting edges with my blunt arrows. Oooh, metaphores)

Thankyou...


(If answers doesn't come as often as normally it's because I'm on dialup and I'm not on as much as I use to.)

You are wrong. End of story. A scout with shield spec do not spec in thrust, therefore they block better than tanks. Period.

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by Tranquil
I think I have to laugh, you don't know about difference in shield speeds?

Shield Types: The type of shield being used determines the delay of the attack and the damage done. So a small shield is very fast to attack but does not do nearly as much damage as the slow heater shield.

This is taken straight from the scout team leader. The attack speed also determines the time from a melee attack has been finished to a block can be made. Get some facts, not just what you think.

You are confused about shield speeds. The 'hidden' delay on shields is only a factor when you are blocking AFTER you have made an attack WITH the shield, not after you melee with your weapon. Presumably scouts don't attack much with shields whilst guarding, so this is not a factor.

And to ElDiablo, so a shield spec Scout doesn't spec weapon ? Might I ask what possible use a Scout without any adequate weapon spec brings to PvE when not firing thier longbow.....just guard ??!?!?! lol.

You guys are nuts.

 

[Light]

Goooooooooooooo Tranquil! WOO!

As for you people going on and on about PvE, whats really sad is no one sees the bigger picture.....

In PvE u may not want us but when it comes to RvR u scream for our scouting abilites, you casters call for us to uncover other assassins from other realms round you and our ability to scout for Relic Raids and armies approaching a relic raid army is essential

This Monday just gone proved this, so you can go on all you like about PvE etc etc but your just all hypocrites

And if you come out with the infil's mainly solo crap I will slap u

 

[old.¥ØÐÄ]

Sirex you commented on how fast a scout dies..

As we all know a scout ISNT a tank class ,and doesnt have much hp . but id bet anything a scout will last longer than you in melee . after all thats what you were saying ?
personally id rather have rouges in my group instead of a caster "except for pbt" .but we talking casters in general . im sure you would die 2-3 hits of a red con mob .scouts prolly 5-6

at least if a rouge gets into a melee situation he can fight back , casters get ganked v fast in melee . if you pull aggro because you nuke the mob for lots of dmge . you would probably be dead before healers casts .scouts can at least block and wait for tanks to take aggro back .

also as to you saying scouts get the group killed . thats not true , sure sometimes it might be . but if a group dies its the GROUPS fault . "unless it is somebodys fault for pulling a mob etc etc when group not ready" . from my experience the two main chars that get the group killed are . Tanks because they rush to much and pull when the healer hasnt enough pow to heal .or the healer because they think mobs an easy pull and underestimates the dmge the mob does and messes up her heals or goes afk with no notice because as above she thinks mobs easy and group can take it easy .

 

[old.chesnor]

btw...my example earlier

So. At level 20, the Armsman will already have a chance to block of 5% + (20*0.5%) = 15%
Scouts chance to block will be 5% + (14*0.5%) = 12%

Means th armsman will have Guard III (slvl15), the Scout only Guard II.

Case closed.

btw, I am not belittling Scouts PvE abilities. I just think that Scouts should play to their strengths and stop kidding themselves about what they bring to a group. Sure, a scouts guard is good, but it is no substitute for a shield specced fighters guard. But by all means get scouts to put guard on the healers or casters. The scouts should be nearby the healers/casters imho anyway shooting arrows. Scouts should not be mixing it up in the front line with the tanks, this is not what they are for.

I have grouped with archers from all 3 realms. I have never thought they sucked in PvE and a good archer is an asset to any group. But what they are best at is firing arrows and sticking nearby the healers/casters should they get aggroed. The archers who seem to think they are uber-melee machines and give it attitude about 'I can out aggro a tank etc..' don't do anything for the plight of archers in PvE. Sure some archers can out aggro tanks under some circumstances, but should only be used as an act of desparation to save the day.

btw, my main experience of grouping with archers has been as a Healer. Archers in melee always scared me. No protect, weak armour, low hits. In the hands of a careless player that spells bad news for the healer who will struggle to heal a rogue class without drawing aggro (contrast this with a tank who sticks protect on the healer and can use their most uber attack flat out, the healer will rarely get aggro). This is the fundamental reason rogue classes find grouping in PvE a problem imho.

 

[old.Grymshadow]

I suspect that the people who won't group with rogues PvE because they dont fit in with their ideal xp group, are the same people who spam my screen with invites every time I wander past a telepad.

 

[Light]

Grym Shadow u so speak the truth

But on a more honest note, I have to say that people on Albion are becoming really nice, I have found myself in tangler groups so much recently it really has been refreshing to see....

There are some really nice people out there and u usually find them at the higher levels it just takes longer to find them!

Lotta love to Albion

 

[old.chesnor]

Grymshadow you are right of course. I have seen this and don't even play a rogue. The problem is that this game is all about xp in PvE and rp in RvR. Its all some people are interested in. Rogues arent popular in PvE because rightly or wrongly, people think that the slot in the group could be filled with a nuker/healer or tank for better/faster xp. Conversely these people then spam you on the telepad not because they want to use you scouting/stealth/archery skills, but because generally archer classes are much better at getting rp in RvR.

Its greed, thats all....And I also have noticed that archers/asassins are having an easier time grouping now as the majority of people understand that those classes bring lots to RvR (not just uber rp for the group). However, this is offset by the sheer numbers of lowb/mid lvl rogues (mostly alts and mostly started purely because those classes do well in RvR compared to tanks/healers).

 

[Tranquil-]

Me wubs Light

I just wonder how a comparison at lvl 20 will do any good? At lvl 20 the armsman will be a better blocker? It is evident. But why bother look at such low levels? As I said, no one compares characters performance at lvl 20. That is not when scouts group the most, and it is not one of those lvls where much playing is done.

At higher levels the scout will block more. Take an equal shield specc tank and look at the scouts much higher dex and it is obvious, scouts block more since it is the only stat modifier(shield slvl is considered equal since this would be a comparison). My scout is lvl 38 and that scout blocks more than a lvl 44 paladin with an already higher shieldspec than my scout. I have also asked other people and their experience is the same.

You can't be sure that the calculations you made are right, there can be so much you have let out, or things you did not know, stuff that's in the code, not open for public viewing, etc., after all, stealth nerfs/boosts HAS been made. It is not an arguement to consider if you can't be sure it is correct. However, I agree with most of the other stuff you have been writing about archers pve.


"Sure, a scouts guard is good, but it is no substitute for a shield specced fighters guard."

- Chesnor, try one. And no, teens won't do it

- There are lot's of other stuff in your posts that is irrelevant to the arguement that's still standing. Does a scout block more or not? (/em screams YEEEEES!)

"btw, my main experience of grouping with archers has been as a Healer. Archers in melee always scared me. No protect, weak armour, low hits. In the hands of a careless player that spells bad news for the healer who will struggle to heal a rogue class without drawing aggro (contrast this with a tank who sticks protect on the healer and can use their most uber attack flat out, the healer will rarely get aggro). This is the fundamental reason rogue classes find grouping in PvE a problem imho."

- Oh, this is new to me, well, not really.

Oh.. and shield specc scouts have been made, without any melee specc, it's true, it works to some point, though I want a pointy stick when I want to poke out my foes eye. Later on the small shield is too light to do good enough damage, and the sniper days are soon to be over, soo back to the pointy stick..

Both you and me knows that neither you or me are going to give in on this case untill some mythic employee steps inbetween and deals out the raw cold proof that scouts block more Hm, there was a link in some thread that showed a pic about internet arguements, can't find it now tho, suits this quite well :touch:

 

[infozwerg]

chesnor sure is RIGHT grouping with hunters is no fun from the point of view of a healer, at least if you want to keep the hunter alive. but thats no problem if you completly ignore aggro on hunters, as most hunters learn not to take aggro or leave group after two or three deaths. but then, hunters block a lot less than warriors mostly cause they dont get shieldspec and thus can get no guard.

chesnor has made a good point of doing some theoretical comparisions between tanks and scouts at lvl 20. his conclusion is that scouts block less with guard.

only problem with that approach chesnor takes is that he is wrong. scouts do block more when guarding the main tank. oh, and that is not speakign as a scout, thats from the point of view of a cleric that stopped to do healing spells when a scout guarded the main tank.

the interesting point is why? maybe cause dex has more impact on blocking than chesnor wants to make us believe. maybe cause most scouts have a template with 42 shieldspec while a lot of tanks spec shield to 7 and max polearm. maybe cause small shields are faster in blocking, if they are. maybe cause scouts concentrate on guarding, while tanks do /stick to the mob and may move away from main tank.

the other interesting point:

that you want the biggest and baddest tank guarding

if that big bad tank is guarding, who is doing the tanking?

 

[old.Whut]

Originally posted by chesnor

btw, my main experience of grouping with archers has been as a Healer. Archers in melee always scared me. No protect, weak armour, low hits. In the hands of a careless player that spells bad news for the healer who will struggle to heal a rogue class without drawing aggro (contrast this with a tank who sticks protect on the healer and can use their most uber attack flat out, the healer will rarely get aggro). This is the fundamental reason rogue classes find grouping in PvE a problem imho.

Only time a Rogue class is a struggle for a healer, is the fault of the healer, and it is DEFINITELY the healer that is being careless . . .

Healers are probably responsible for creating much (if not all) of the bad image of Rogue classes, and the difficulties they have finding groups. And you know what? Hardly a healer exists who knows why.

 

[Tranquil-]

I wouldn't say it's the healers fault, it's either the tank not doing enough to take aggro or the archer doing some taunt styles when he/she shouldn't or if he/she does too much damage before the tanks have gotten aggro. Of course it might be the healers fault, slow response etc, but normally it's not JUST his/her fault.

 

[old.Whut]

Originally posted by Tranquil
I wouldn't say it's the healers fault, it's either the tank not doing enough to take aggro or the archer doing some taunt styles when he/she shouldn't or if he/she does too much damage before the tanks have gotten aggro. Of course it might be the healers fault, slow response etc, but normally it's not JUST his/her fault.

I haven't said what it is (yet) in the hope that healers can get their heads switched on and figure it out for themselves.

And a hint, it isn't anything to do with a slow response.

 

[Arthwyr]

So I think all in all, I'll have the armsman stick guard on me if you don't mind

Wrong, let the defensive pala put guard up, cause if the Armsman runs out of endurance for taunt / detaunt moves the paladin can still use the heal/damage twist or heal/armor twist for agro control. Best agro taking tank is a paladin by far. Polearm tanks can not take the pun a shield specced paladin can.

U know ppl trying to say that scouts can block just as good as tanks makes me laugh ur not good tanks and I dont mind havin 1 scout in group to pull becasue they can do some good dmg with bow but when healers get aggroed i would prefer to have tank instead of scouts... and stop trying to compare scouts to tanks in RvE there not even in the same league as tanks[polearm tanks rule]

Uhm yes, a shield specced scout with the same number of spec points in shield will block better on SINGLE mobs who perform SINGLE hits then his Highlander counterpart because of the higher dexterity wich is a small factor in blocking. As for them not being in the same league as polearm tanks for RvE well try soloing an orange mob with your polearm tincan, then try it with a scout. If the scout plays it right he is just as valualble in a group for RvE then a Polearm tank cause a polearm tank burns up the mana of a healer quick once you play with the big mobs. Polearm tank is a nice kill assist but should not be main tank. And in RvR they are only good for the short close range battles cause archers like to chew on Cans without a shield, guess you will find that out when you are knocking on the gates of a keep and you have to beg a shield tank/scout to put guard on you.

Arthwyr
LvL 50 Paladin
GM < Exiled >

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by Whut


Only time a Rogue class is a struggle for a healer, is the fault of the healer, and it is DEFINITELY the healer that is being careless . . .

Healers are probably responsible for creating much (if not all) of the bad image of Rogue classes, and the difficulties they have finding groups. And you know what? Hardly a healer exists who knows why.

So its the healers fault rogues struggle to find groups now.....ROFLMAO.

So if a hunter misbehaves and steals aggro from the tank on a purple mob, and gets to 20% hp in 1 hit so the healer must use an aggro grabbing heal....thats the Healers fault is it ??!?!?!?!

Or if a shadowblade stealths in and does a 3 chain critstrike before the tanks have secured aggro......thats the healers fault is it ????

Sheeesh...

Tranquil:
I'll concede that scouts block more than equally shield specced fighter classes because of high dex. But I'll still have the guy in plate with a large shield and a bucket full of hps guarding me, thankyou very much.

 

[infozwerg]

I'll concede that scouts block more than equally shield specced fighter classes because of high dex. But I'll still have the guy in plate with a large shield and a bucket full of hps guarding me, thankyou very much.

i still fail to understand why plate armor and mucho hps help with guarding the main tank. after all, the tank gets the aggro, not the one guarding. if your job is guarding the main tank, you can wear nothing but briefs with stars and stripes on em for all i care as long as shieldspec and dex are high.

and i dont see why a large shield helps while guarding unless your mezzer is bad. wait a minute, chesnor played healer?

thats also the silly bit in artwhys posting: its not that a pala cant guard good, but if the pala is guarding, who is tanking? and if you have two of those defensive palas in the group, isnt it better to let a scout guard the one of them that does the job as main tank?

oh, and @ whut: if you think what i think you think, you are cool.


ciao,
Estat

 

[Arthwyr]

I never mentioned the scout tanking, i only said his block rate WILL be higher then an equally shield specced tank on single targets with single hits (small shield one target) Its actualy quite nice to have a scout guard the tanking pala. And the pala is the better tank because he can control agro, even when he is out of endurance. Quite the lifesaver too on those long autopulls when the rest of the armsman tanks are out of it and would be left incapable pulling a fly of a dogshit. But then ofcourse I would know nothing about the paladin class since i only have been playing PvE since day before yesterday. I got leveld on AFK, while watching reruns of Happy days cause I think the Fonz is cool, so glad groups tolerated it because they love my group shield buff.
Large shields and guard ... wait ... oh yes ... mobs with double hits in one blow ... small shield can only block one blow ... you're right can't see what difference a small/large shield would make in guarding. And if you have 2 palas, well sweet, you can share agro between the 2 of em alternating chants.

Arthwyr

 

[infozwerg]

Arth, correct me if im wrong, but this discussion was about guarding, not about tanking?

the thing about double hits and scouts not able to block them: scroll up, we discussed that and its wrong.


ciao,
Estat

 

[Tranquil-]

A scout can block dual wielding mobs, I have done it.
Unless the mobs hits in the EXACT same time the scout has a chance to block it as anyone else, it's just that the scout has a bit higher chance to do so. How often do you get blows that hit on the same time, not too often.. I would rather want to have a guarder with better chance to block that one time, than a "possible" chance to block both, but with a smaller chance to do so. But that's just me..

 

[Flimgoblin]

Whats with the cryptic

'ahhh I know why scouts take damage! it's the healers! No I'm not going to say why! that would back up my point and make sense'

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by infozwerg


i still fail to understand why plate armor and mucho hps help with guarding the main tank. after all, the tank gets the aggro, not the one guarding. if your job is guarding the main tank, you can wear nothing but briefs with stars and stripes on em for all i care as long as shieldspec and dex are high.

and i dont see why a large shield helps while guarding unless your mezzer is bad. wait a minute, chesnor played healer?

Even the best mezzer at times (and I wasn't the best, or the worst) will fail to mezz first time. Or mezz will break and there will be a time when 2 mobs are on the tank(s) (like when one mob is almost dead, you may choose not to re-mezz the add). You know this as well as I do.

I said about 20 posts ago that the reason I like to see a badass tank guarding another badass tank (actually, guarding each other if both shield specced) is because then you have 2 badass tanks beating down on the mob. Rather than 1 badass tank, and 1 bad tank You really can't argue with this, so please stop.

If you are going to group a scout and then waste his talents by guarding the tank rather than shooting his high specced longbow at the mob then you have my commiserations.

Imagine, archer joins group...
Scout :"okay guys, I'm going to guard the tank, because my block is uber, oh and btw I haven't specced weapon"
Group Leader : <pregnant silence>
Group Leader : "err, could you leave please"

SHEESH !

 

[old.Krusha]

my favourite combo is two warriors crossguard and taunt .. and have a hunter shoot it as it approaches (using spear in cqb naturally ) and a SB that tears him a new .. umm.. "hole" .. backup is a runie and a healer plus shammie and the last( but far from least ) spot is a skald naturally =))

but thats just one grp .. another is 3 zerks 1 runie 2 skald 2 healer/shammie

or etc etc etc

my point is .. if it works dont fix it.. if the 4 ranger/scout/hunter works .. go with it ... (havent tried such a combo .. by 4 crit shots as an opener.. OUCH!!!!! will take a little training tho )

remember ..... make it fun too people

maybe i missed the new heading the topic took.. im just tired i guess

 

[Tranquil-]

I agree that if there are yellow or orange mobs, maybe even reds, the scout should use bow, cause then the damage done to the tanks won't be too bad, i.e goblins.. but sometimes you go at purp/high red mobs, the scout will miss alot, and then should guard the main tank because he IS a better blocker, who says that there cannot be 3 ppl at the front line, two "big badass" tanks AND the scout blocking the main tank(or switching guard between the two). The scout will do more consistent damage with melee to a high lvl mob than with bow. (miss, miss, miss, miss,hit 100 damage, miss, miss etc. mob dead..) or you can: lowermeleedmg, lowermeleedmg, lowermeleedmg, lowermeleedmg, lowermeleedmg, mob dead.)

"Oh no, since you are not going to tank you should go sit at the back even though your guard is better and you won't get hit."

and.. you said: "Rather than 1 badass tank, and 1 bad tank You really can't argue with this, so please stop. " <-- Why shouldn't the "bad tank"(read scout) stand there? he won't get hit, he blocks alot, healer doesn't need to heal that much? To have two badass tanks guard eachother and share aggro will get you two candidates to heal, maybe not much on each heal, but still, the same amount of power will be drained(stupid if you ask me). To only have one target to heal, will save power when that target is being guarded well. It won't hurt to have that extra power if something goes wrong, sometimes it will..

And that stupid example..:

"Scout :"okay guys, I'm going to guard the tank, because my block is uber, oh and btw I haven't specced weapon"
Group Leader : <pregnant silence>
Group Leader : "err, could you leave please" "

- Any player who has some experience will remotely know what to do when and where.. There is something called situations, and those change, and hopefully the people change to adapt to those situations.. that situation you created is far off what people are doing around the realms.. I don't write down my experiences with novice players and use them as examples on how I think a class plays, and you shouldn't either. That is simply not how people play later on, when most of the playing takes place. As said 40 to 50 takes about as much time as 1-40..

And:
"Even the best mezzer at times (and I wasn't the best, or the worst) will fail to mezz first time. Or mezz will break and there will be a time when 2 mobs are on the tank(s) (like when one mob is almost dead, you may choose not to re-mezz the add). You know this as well as I do."

- What has this got to do with it? A tank who knows what he's doing will try to get aggro on HIMSELF, and will then be guarded, and in most groups there are more than one tank to take care of that business if stuff fails. What if mez breakes? try to re-mez. Or get the tank to have the aggro and heal/guard him. If you let one mob stay unmezzed you chose to have that mob a threat to all the classes who may die in one blow by that mob, that is the mezzers fault if so happens. The mezzer should ALWAYS think safety first, that's what mez is for. If they don't, I see where CC people should improve, since there will always be classes with weak melee or weak armour.

Tanks should always have aggro, always, untill CC people can mezz/stun whatever those mobs.

 

[old.Whut]

Originally posted by fingoniel
Whats with the cryptic

'ahhh I know why scouts take damage! it's the healers! No I'm not going to say why! that would back up my point and make sense'

It would be rather nice if people could have worked it out for themselves. Give them a sense of achievement, and get them thinking more about their role perhaps.

Rogues reputation for dying easily, is pretty well down to them being BUFFED! By HEALERS!

Cause and effect.

Buff a Rogue class, and they DIE, because they over-damage. A healer can't keep up with repairing the damage they take either, so your down time goes up dramatically. Don't buff them, they contribute, and they LIVE! Your down time also reduces dramatically. Also, because the Healer is not trying to keep up with massive heals, the healer is a lot less likely to pull aggro either, so the healers survivability goes up as well.

Rogues die a lot when they are buffed, so they then get a reputation for dying easily, which is hard to shake off. Instead of people asking WHY they die a lot, people just say Rogues die a lot, and the Class has to live with the consequences. Can anybody honestly say that is not the fault of the healer, who doesn't understand the toolkit they have and what it can do?

Just try it, you might be amazed . . . .

Too many healers just buff to the max, as they think it is always a help, without realising how completely counter-productive it can be to some classes.

Hardly surprising that this would be so completely over Chesnor's head. Is he a Smite Cleric by any chance?



Just noticed his sig - sleeping - explains everything . . :sleeping: