ok

[old.Sirex_85]

ok i can agree mercs are ok but scouts and inf are useless in in PVE.if there is a group wiht more than 1 scouti will not join because its unbalanced and every1 will most likely die.What u want is 4 tanks 2 clerics a caster and minstrel.

 

[Khalen]

It's not scouts or infils that get a team killed... They are even better sometimes getting aggro of the clerics.. Don't ignore them that is so playing ego (I wanna xp and I don't wanna have a stealther because they suck.. <- lame attitude) They have a hard time already and even more if people keep playing like that..

Scouts and Infiltrators are the best informants an army can have. Without them we would fail..

 

[old.Sirex_85]

I dont mind havin 1 scout and mabye a merc but more than 1 scout is a accident waitin to happen u cant pull aggro of healers very well and u can put stealth on to run away when ppl are gettin killed in PVE..Scouts are needed in RVR but they are not could tanks and good pullers but they cant do any good damage

 

[old.Winter]

Originally posted by Sirex_85
I dont mind havin 1 scout and mabye a merc but more than 1 scout is a accident waitin to happen u cant pull aggro of healers very well and u can put stealth on to run away when ppl are gettin killed in PVE..Scouts are needed in RVR but they are not could tanks and good pullers but they cant do any good damage

now, bad english aside, i feel i just have to "waste my breath" trying to re-educate the peons.

Pull Aggro off Healers - now i personally never had this problem, when i wanted to pull aggro i could (I could even pull aggro off a tank when _I_ wanted to) - Oh and by the Way, scouts can use melee weapons and _DO_ get styles (i.e. Deaggro, aggro etc)

Put Stealth on to run away - well firstly stealth is useless vs a mob thats already aggro'd on your party (well as far as fleeing are concerned anyway), Secondly, unless your a rezza running away is kind of pointless (unless your enemy is totaly overwhelming or ordered by your party leader etc)

Cant do any good Damage - well at this point i realised your a bit of a peon, totaly unschooled and generally an Idiot. With the exception of Nuker Casters, Scouts have the best damage output, Scouts can (easily) out damage a tank, in fact i spent countless hours teasing Tomask over this one...

I hear Warcraft 3 is coming out soon, at last you can go back to cutting down trees!

your generally talking out of your ARSE
(i know a _little_ about scouts)

 

[Cadwallon]

I believe that it is not the class but the person who plays it that determines whether the character is 'good' or not.

Some of the best xp groups can be unconventional to say the least. One of the best groups that I have been in consisted of 2 scouts, a theurgist, a cabalist, an armsman, a sorc, a minstrel and me as the cleric. We pulled tanglers for the best part of a day with no deaths and great xp. The sole tank was mainly employed to run around picking up loot as most gobs were dead before they reached the group.

Don't get stuck into the 'group must have' approach or you will spend far too long trying to put groups together. Go with what is available but best of all go with peeps you know, whatever their class and have fun.

 

[Light]

Scouts weeeeeellll out dmg tanks u silly numpty!!

As for infiltrators we throw ourselves to your mercy!

 

[belth]

Remind me to spam /laugh at your dead body when I see it, Sirex. You say stealthers are required in RvR but you don't want to exp with one? Sheesh, put some points to the spec-line called "thinking".

 

[starblade]

I wanna xp and I don't wanna have a stealther because they suck.. <- lame attitude

Indeed. It's hard enough for scouts and infils to lvl up most of the time without such an attitude towards them.
As with any character in our realm, they are just as good and needed in a group as any other.

Just a slight adaptation in playstyle and you will see the true value of scouts and infils m8 ... think about it next time you r in RvR and get scout/infil info on enemy strength/movement.

 

[old.Grymshadow]

You gotta laugh at a guy who has zero understanding saying rogue classes basically suck, while in a guild with a name thats more than hints at a rogue nature

 

[old.LandShark]

As to his 'ideal' group, sod that. Never had as good exp as i got yesterday with Maska and Stekeltje nuking the mong out of 20+ gobs at a time. Cleric and tanks were doing little except clearing the odd gob that got to melee and wasn't instantly fried by Stek's PBAE. (ice wizards have more fun!)

Sirex, scouts can generally outaggro a tank if they want to, because they hit fast and can thus do aggro styles fast. Dmg is only a small proportion of aggro control...

 

[old.Sirex_85]

Sry about the bad english but i wanted to watch the match and scouts might be fast but they do little damage and i did say i dont mind having 1 scout in group but u try fight high lvl enemys with 4 scouts in group see how long u last.when u have the opition of getin a powerfull polearm tank in there..... tell me which is better?

 

[old.LandShark]

On purp (maybe red, unsure - probably tho) mobs, the polearmsman will outdmg the scouts. Why? Cos bow dmg does naff-all on purps compared to polearm.
Since say lvl 37 I haven't been fighting purp mobs, i've been doing oranges. Against oranges, your polearmsman vs 4(lol...) scouts is laughable, the scouts will outdmg hands down.

 

[old.Carnak]

Just about infs...

Infs can ALSO easily outdamage a full polearm specced tank. 2 days ago, me and an infil were grouping in keltoi (both level 24) and we both hit the mob, the agro always went to him. Now i do ~120 damage with my styles, but the infil used poison and obviously outdamaged me. In the end i would hit the mob 3 times before he joined in so he wouldnt get agro - less downtime.

 

[Tranquil-]

Sirex, try to read up some and listen to people with more experience than you. It's not hard and it doesn't cost a thing. Sadly you are misinformed and you are not the only one, that's why it's harder for rogues to get groups.

To me it seems your experience in DAoC is little, correct me if I'm wrong. Sirex, read the post in this thread. And do some more studying in even more places before you open your mouth again.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by LandShark
As to his 'ideal' group, sod that. Never had as good exp as i got yesterday with Maska and Stekeltje nuking the mong out of 20+ gobs at a time. Cleric and tanks were doing little except clearing the odd gob that got to melee and wasn't instantly fried by Stek's PBAE. (ice wizards have more fun!)

Sirex, scouts can generally outaggro a tank if they want to, because they hit fast and can thus do aggro styles fast. Dmg is only a small proportion of aggro control...

Interesting.. what were they usin LandShark?
(lookin for ideas for my earth wizzie later in life )

this three wizzies using AoE? (fire aoe followed immediately by earth snare aoe could be interesting... ice aoe killin them if they get close )

 

[Olgark]

Ok not to sure about scouts, but I play a Hunter in Midgard, last night I was in a group with two other hunters and a healer. We kept agro and shared out the damage by using our taunt and detaunt styles with our spears.

My hunter is level 32 and I was grouped with a level 42 Thane killing werewolves in Varul' . And when he was getting beaten on I could draw agro off him easily and when ever I wanted to, if I got to much agro I could do a few detaunts and he would have it back just as easy. Oh yeh and before anyone says b/s to this the mobs where orange to me and blue to the Thane.

Please before you post about what a class can and can not do you should realy play the class first then moan about what it can and can not do. Rogue classes as a whole have a hard time getting groups and its this sort of publicity they do not need Sirex.


OMG what am I doing I am sticking up for a Albion class hereuke: nah your right the scouts are wank.

 

[Insurrextion]

infils always get aggro cause of dual-wield and not cause they do more damage than tanks ... afaik aggro is also accumulated by the no of times u hit the mob - and infils do that A LOT with low speed weaps, high quick and dual-wield this is also the reason why most mercs can get aggro easy from armsmen/pallies

stealthers useless in PvE? not really - but seriously who wouldnt prefer a S&S pally or polearmsman or cleric instead of an extra scout or infil

btw Carnak if u play with that infil again tell him not to apply poisons in PvE - gives him more aggro (something which infils dont take very well ) ... really increases downtime cause infils take a shitload of power to heal ... only time poisons shld be used is in RvR

 

[old.Shengi]

Personally, I find this post somewhat odd coming from a guy who is in a mainly rogue guild as Shadowlords Society is. Or at least was.

Just talk to Zerathol or anyone else in your guild Sirex.

 

[old.Carnak]

Hehe thanks for the tip, its what i told him too

But we finished the mobs off so fast (orange to us) that he nearly always still had about 75% of his hits when it died . I think when we started to pull pairs he used debuff poison instead.

 

[old.Sirex_85]

Well ive read all of the posts and i did say i dont mind having 1 scout in a group... but in the past ive been in groups with 3 or 4 scouts and either they cant do enough damage or they get killed to very quick and when there gettin healed they take alot of the healers power because they cant take a lot of damage.I dont like scouts and infs are a strange classs that u dont see loads of.I do know about scouts my bro as 1 and what im saying is true and at least try and get a group with 4 scouts in it and healers and see what happens? it wont be nice

 

[Gekul]

The rogues that are playing their class properly you don't notice. The ones you see dying are doing too much damage

What u want is 4 tanks 2 clerics a caster and minstrel

-2 tanks + 2 rogues.

Obviously you will want a tank or two to soak up the damage and a healer. Rest of the group isn't that important as long as everyone knows what they are doing (but that goes with all classes).

 

[granny]

Originally posted by Sirex_85
Well ive read all of the posts and i did say i dont mind having 1 scout in a group... but in the past ive been in groups with 3 or 4 scouts and either they cant do enough damage or they get killed to very quick and when there gettin healed they take alot of the healers power because they cant take a lot of damage.I dont like scouts and infs are a strange classs that u dont see loads of.I do know about scouts my bro as 1 and what im saying is true and at least try and get a group with 4 scouts in it and healers and see what happens? it wont be nice

No, that's not what you said. You said:

ok i can agree mercs are ok but scouts and inf are useless in in PVE.if there is a group wiht more than 1 scouti will not join because its unbalanced and every1 will most likely die.

You were wrong in your original post, no question. If you've read the replies and changed your mind (which I hope you have since stalker-classes have a hard enough time getting groups and levelling because of attitudes like yours, clearly based on ignorance) then that's good news, but have the decency to admit it eh.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by GekuL
The rogues that are playing their class properly you don't notice. The ones you see dying are doing too much damage


-2 tanks + 2 rogues.

Obviously you will want a tank or two to soak up the damage and a healer. Rest of the group isn't that important as long as everyone knows what they are doing (but that goes with all classes).

One or two tanks are useful
If you have 4 defensive tanks you're not getting your moneys worth... better to have those 3rd and 4th ones being offensive tanks or offensive rogues/casters/whatever

And at the end of the day it all depends on what yer pulling...

Three earth wizzies pulling with aoe snare/nuke would be interesting have to work on oranges or something... or groups of yellows...

course you'd have to all know when to run...

tempted to try this out

 

[obacono]

What Cadwallon said (at the top of the thead)...


Couldn't agree more, the only real need for a group is some kind of healer. Other than that I've found the more mixed a group is (and knows it's strategies) the better it seems to play.

 

[Tranquil-]

Sirex, a scout is NOT a tank, don't let it do the tanks job.
Does it look like a theurgist is a good tank?
"Shit, don't let that caster in, they tank worse than my grandmother."

Heh.

ps. I'd rather want a shield specced scout guarding me than a shield specced tank.

pps. This is the reason why theurgists should have a mind speccline.

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by Tranquil

<snip>
ps. I'd rather want a shield specced scout guarding me than a shield specced tank.

rofl

 

[Tranquil-]

Something wrong with that?

Just thought I'd let you know that blocking is 100% dexbased.

 

[old.chesnor]

Actually blocking is 100% shield spec based. 5% base chance, then 0.5% per spec point. The chance to block is then taken off dex, but the dex modifier is minor when compared to the spec level.

I'd want the tank with the best shield spec and most hits to guard me, because succesful guarding implies that YOU have aggro. So I'd not want a scout with low dmg table hitting it (you cant guard and fire that longbow). I'd want a tank with a fighters dmg table taunting it off me or battering it into the ground. This is why the best front line in a group is 2 shield specced tanks with guard on each other, taunting/detaunting when appropriate, but sharing aggro. This leaves classes like scouts free to do what they do best, deal dmg with their specialised weapons (longbows in the scouts case)

Guard is a tanking role, and as you said, scouts aint tanks

 

[Tranquil-]

"Actually blocking is 100% shield spec based. 5% base chance, then 0.5% per spec point. The chance to block is then taken off dex, but the dex modifier is minor when compared to the spec level. "

- Exactly what I said, I want a shield specced scout, because if the scout has got the same shield skill as the tank he blocks more!?

"I'd want the tank with the best shield spec and most hits to guard me, because succesful guarding implies that YOU have aggro."

- Wrong. I can guard anyone, anytime independent of aggro or not. If a guy is being attacked and not being guarded, I can come straight into battle and switch guard to that guy, and thus block, and as I already said, a scout blocks more, purely because the only thing that is making the blockrate different, is the dex.(shield skill is being looked at as equal on both tank and scout) I have played enough to more than notice that a scout blocks more.

"So I'd not want a scout with low dmg table hitting it (you cant guard and fire that longbow). I'd want a tank with a fighters dmg table taunting it off me or battering it into the ground. This is why the best front line in a group is 2 shield specced tanks with guard on each other, taunting/detaunting when appropriate, but sharing aggro.

- Guard doesn't create any aggro. That's why I can just stand there and block with higher blockrates than a tank because of my higher dex. That small extra added chance to block is among the things that save lifes.

 

[old.chesnor]

Ok, let me take your argument apart piece by piece.

First some facts about scouts :-
Has to spec 3 lines to be effective (shield, weap and longbow)
Get 2*level spec points.
Scouts can only wield small shields.
Dex is primary attribute (raises every level)

Now lets look at a comparable shield specced armsman:-
Only has to spec 2 lines (shield and weap).
Can use small/medium and large shields.
Dex is tertiary attribute (raises every 3rd level)

Now lets compare lvl20 Scout and Armsman (assuming both chars are Britons) :-
Scout will have 90ish dex.
Armsman will have 70ish dex.
Armsman can have 20 in shield and 19 in weap at 20.
Scout (I assume will keep long bow close to lvl) will have to compromise and have lower shield and weap. 20 bow, 14 shield, 12 slash (taunt+detaunt) works.

So. At level 20, the Armsman will already have a chance to block of 5% + (20*0.5%) = 15%
Scouts chance to block will be 5% + (14*0.5%) = 12%

High Dex is not (and I played a Lurikeen shield champ with LOADS of dex, so I know this to be true) going to compensate for spec points in shield. And definately not 3% imho.

Now, the armsman can also use a large shield at this level, and can therefore block attacks from 3 mobs. Meanwhile the scout is stuck with a small shield (blocks 1 mob). Also the armsman has a much higher specced weapon (and is on a higher dmg table) and is much better positioned to take the aggro off or beat down. Scouts suck in melee compared to armsman.

So I think all in all, I'll have the armsman stick guard on me if you don't mind

Scouts fire bows. You have a speccable shield because that is your classes skill above other archers (you have no pets/spells). But your shield is for soloing (hence it is small).

Scouts are not tanks, one thing that really annoyed me in PvE with archers was those that meleed. Your melee sucks, leave that to the tanks (I class melee as the ability to deal AND take damage). Your class fires arrows, now go stand at the back and do so. The only time I like to see archers meleeing is to save the casters/healers or when there are no tanks.

Now put that shield away, get to the back with the healers and casters and fire your bow ffs.

Thankyou...