Not only Necros...

[The Real Redi]

Arnor, seriously, that has GOT to be a biased view of a mid :lol:

easy answer to this - Two people shouldn't be able to open a keeps doors <shrugs> that simple. The fact that the pair in particular are VERY good at playing their class, it doesnt change the fact that they are a little overpowered as a class.

I agree with Falcon - longer cast/recast times, or slightly less effective heals, maybe?

 

[old.windforce]

from what i hear is that healing pets need queit some time to switch target
so damage the BD then kill the commander then switch back to BD

its a theory though

 

[old.Tyraette]

I almost had one of teh blackbyrds recently...am keen to explore possibilities with them one on one.

I'm a mercfil admittedly, so its harder for me from the get-go, but if I open up with disease and debuff, should I be able to do them fairly comfortably?

As far as I'm aware, tehre are two factors to weigh up...

1. Can i hit them for more than the pet heals..

Can anyone confirm whether disease reduces the amount theyre healed by, or whether it stops it all? If so, that should be a significant advantage, especially to those with frontloaded damage. Stealthers should feasibly be the best at eliminating them due to this and other poisons. Other classes without disease, would have to bear that in mind more.

2. What is doing more damage to me? Spells off the caster, or the pets?

Lesser of two evils with that one. I honestly havent faced enough boneys to be able to determine that personally. Perhaps some experimentation required. My initial thoughts would be 'caster > pets' when it comes to pure damage dealing..but again, not enough experience to judge that.

The pair of them should establish what you should be targetting. As I lvl my little boney up <thanks again Roo, great night> then I'll be better placed to assess spells and such.

One thing as an aside, would be trying to id the boneys spec. I'm purely speculating here, but presumably the pets have different names based on strength? Similar way to a lvl 5 necro has a zombie, and the lvl 50 has a df knight. If so <and this is more applicable to steatlhers due to having time> then you could feasibly determine his relative strengths...eg <and im guessing here> a majority of caster pets would indicate darkness spec...would that influence your decision? For me, a darkness would indicate lesser healing, and more powerful nukes on caster, so i would go for the man himself.


Just trying to say that there are tactics for defeating every class, you just have to find them. I dont like to see any class get nerfed, my basis for judging them is not what can they kill, but what can kill them? Each class should have some class/classes/situatoins where they excel, and all classes should have some class/classes/situations where they are crap. I'd rather see other classes get boosted to be able to provide counters than seeing them get nerfed.

At the end of the day, its a team game, and its using the combination of skills of you and your teammates that will dictate whether you win or lose. Assassins and possibly archers are the only classes that dont really offer much to a group that someone else can do better, and so all their skills to take down an opponent have to be provided for by them and them alone.

As an example, to compensate for wearing leather, we have good evade rates..unbuffed, I'd say an assasin is balanced in that regard. Trouble is with buffs that balance rate is artificially shifted and they are given overpowered status <tm> Not so bad if buffs are provided by a cleric in the group as that balance can be restored, but with buffbots, there is no way of restoring it, and hence theyre pretty much untouchable in 1v1 combat, as you have the benefits of the group, tied in with the benefits of being tiered towars 1v1 combat.

Fine, Bonedancers are very hard to take down one-on-one. Realistically though, casters use range as an advantage. Unless youre a stealther, then id expect the boney to win hands down against most classes in a one vs one situation. Get two or three people though, against a boney by himself, and you win. Thats the boney's strength in rvr. Most people have a class that they wouldnt want to meet in 1v1 combat, for Alb its the friar, for mid its the boney, for hib its probably the enchanter. All have their strengths, all have their weaknesses. Just learn to exploit those weaknesses and not play to their strengths

As an aside, with the incident in question I believe having read the account that Autius and Carrain pa'd a caster _each_ not two on one. Just to clarify that one.

 

[the_smurflord]

I've met bonedancers 1v1 on three occassions so far.

The first time I did what I normally did vs the caster classes, and walked up and PAed him. Of course, his pets started healing him and nukeing me, and I died.
On the second and third time, I waited and PAed the lead pet, and killed him by the end of the PA chain. After that, the caster was relatively easy to hit. Note: Have your 3rd weapon ready with a snare venom, as they always run at this point.

Bonedancers are not uber, they just need different tactics compared to the older classes.

 

[Glacier]

Originally posted by The Real Redi
Bonedancers - From meeting the blakbyrd family, many of our order can certainly see how ridiculous these walking boneyards are. Two infils, one 47th, one similar, both hit the orange eyed BD at snowdonia keep, whilst he was sitting - PAs both hit, both blades procced their venom (have no idea what). Now, a caster sat on his arse should either die, even orange eyed, or at least be so crippled survival is not an option, but within a few seconds, both Assassins lay dead at his feet. No.

Either these asassains were complete morons or were playing for a friend or something.. if they'd know their magic they woulda diseased+str/con decreased the bonedancer making him unable to get away [cause of the snare effect of the disease + any possible encumberance of the str decrease] and the pets would be healing him for 10% per heal...

I agree bonedancers are "a little over the top" atm, but hopefully mythic will add longer recast to the instant lifedrain or make pets heal for less, but 2 people should be able to kill a sitting mage , and especially asassains...

 

[Kerram Darktyde]

Longer Recast on the Lifetap!!
Necros Lifetap is 3s......(+ a little for pet to have a free action)

BDs get a Pet level restriction next patch (No current ones are not abusing it cos to have no controll over level of pets summoned) this will lower them to 4 poop pets or 3 okish pets..(lower level healer pets heal for less ..)

LoS is the big bug and both Animists and necros are using it ( and Mythic called it an exploit) BDs can use it if Dark spec or BA spec but lets face it 90%+ of BD are High Supp

 

[CliffyG]

Admittedly this is only from my experience in Thid but my Sorc found it very hard against BD's. If they saw me first i was dead, with combo of insta in between every cast spell i get constantly interupted. I have only one QC and if they aren't close enough (which they normally aren't if they've seen me first) then its choose between mezzing the BD or his pets. Both end up with me dying.

If i see them first the it's generally goodbye Mr BD. AoE mez and set pet on BD, spam lifetap. There was one i fought who with a combination of high resists and high spec insta lifetap who i couldnt kill with pet hitting and me nuking after a succesful AOE mez .

What needs to be done is a longer recast time on lifetap, its too powerful for an insta on that short timer.

 

[old.Tohtori]

"Ah young pandawan...you want to learn how to kill a bonedancer? First you must learn how to kill yourself."

"..uh...what?"

"Listen grasshopper. How are you to learn the way to steal another beings life force if you do not know how to take it from yourself."

"..are you suggesting i kill myself?!"

"Yes young ragamuffin. The path to enlightment goes through a pure and controlled release of yourself."

"I'm not killing myself!"

"But Milli-Vanilli you must. Then you can strike me down and your journey on the dark side will begin."

"Now you're just quoting starwars and doing it poorly...listen old fart..i'm not killing myself period!"

"...then what'll you have with your fries?"

 

[Fafnir]

Originally posted by Haedric Griffin
What needs to be done is a longer recast time on lifetap, its too powerful for an insta on that short timer.

Hmmmmm, what other usefull spells do a supp bd have? Its 4 sec recast time, you should be able to cast something during that time, but then again if you have a tank on you, can you cast then?

 

[CliffyG]

Originally posted by Fafnir
Hmmmmm, what other usefull spells do a supp bd have? Its 4 sec recast time, you should be able to cast something during that time, but then again if you have a tank on you, can you cast then?

They still have baseline nukes/dots, if they do insta at start of cast you get constant interruption.

 

[old.Alliandre]

Minstrels and classes with amnesia should be able to kill them pretty easily. Use amnesia on the pet commander and it should die. I'm not sure if this still works, but I know I use to be able to kill pets with it.

And if you spec an Enchanter for solo PvE (put alot into enchantments) you can solo low purples. I've done it before. Although you will be abit rubbish in RvR if you do this, it's great fun for a while.

 

[Fafnir]

Originally posted by Haedric Griffin
They still have baseline nukes/dots, if they do insta at start of cast you get constant interruption.

OMG baseline nukes are so bloody powerfull.

 

[rynnor]

A 50 Infiltrator would have prob one shot the sitting BD - casters never get excessive hp's and no way the healer pets can save em from that

Comparisons between 50s and sub 50's are pretty meaningless when your talking about one class being stronger than another.

 

[CliffyG]

Originally posted by Fafnir
OMG baseline nukes are so bloody powerfull.

Thought i already explained what i was on about . Using baselines keeps me interrupted till next lifetap which interrupts again.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

A bonedancer that goes the suppression route is weak offensively. The player has chosen to play a character which is difficult to kill, not one that deals out vast amounts of damage. If you notice the whi.. er, points raised, most of them are about the boney being able to interupt and cause hassle, rather than provide some uber death dealing blow.

Most of the people dying to bonedancers at the moment are doing so because they don't know how to fight them and in time this will change.

The only bonedancers that are going to be strong offensively are the ones that go darkness or bone army and tbh the horrendus bugs that you have to suffer while levelling make these two routes appalling atm.

And btw, all the bonedancer spec damage be it dot or lifetap is relatively weak when compared to other classes as they are expected to be using their pets. Even the baseline darkness nuke isn't exactly uber. Again, people are completely failing to take this into account.

Its just the usual NOOO-I-DONT-HAVE-THE-BRAINS-FIGURE-OUT-HOW-TO-FIGHT-THIS-CLASS nonsense that is going on because it requires that for once you change from standard patterns of attack and already the PLAYERS are being separated from those that merely log on with their generic cookie cutter characters.

 

[mid_Efour]

Originally posted by DocWolfe
scouts cant kill em.. I tried earlier.. pets healed him to 100% while I was reloading and then his bone commander started whacking then he started nuking ;p

scouts cant kill anything whats new?

 

[Urgat Rip-Eye]

With regards to priorities...

Someone asked about relative threats from the BD and his Pets.

(Scheafer i think)

I'll speak with regards to Full sup (or almost full sup BD, since thats where my experience lies)


In short - you have problems.

Solo, an infiltrator, has three options against a Sup Bonedancer.

1 - Take the Caster.
2 - Tae the commander
3 - Take the healers.

I'll outline the problems with these three approaches as though i was your victim.

----

1,

As soon as you PA me, i hit /face, debuff and lifetap you. I can do this without thinking about it, since it is my major survival response, and has been practiced to the point of second nature.

This one response give me the buffer in hitpoints for the healer(s) to start healing. By the time your swinging again, i am healed and ready to tap you again. You are going to die. Period.

-----

2,

You PA the commander. Again - my "defense instinct" kicks in at the sound of the style effect. /face, debuff and Tap. When i realise your after the commander, i keep you targeted, but spam the heal pet key. Since i do not need to target my commander to heal it, and the tap is instant, i can do both at once. With me and the healers healing old boney, i am afraid... your going to die.

-----

3,

You PA a healer. Que "defense instinct" However - Healers can heal whilst under attack. So, it and any other healers heal it. The chances are you cannot do enough damage even to a green to kill it under such conditions. ALl the while you are being tapped, and probably basline nuked at the sametime. You will die - quickly.

-----

Without doubt - I, the bonedancer am your greatest threat. With low varience on the baseline, due to spec/items/and RR i can spam nukes, AND the Debuf powered lifetap on you. Left unchecked - this makes short order of you.

The commander CAN damage you, but the output is far lower than mine.

The problem is... if you discount the pets... you cannot kill a sup BD quick enough for him not to Tap you to death.

If you face he pets... you leave yourself open to mass spell damage.

At the end of the day, A Sup bonedancer is a Caster, his bluecon tank friend, and 2 or three green/gray healers.


Would you solo attack a group of players in this setup?

-----

BD (esp sup) are going to require totally new tactics.

Good luck.

 

[CliffyG]

Originally posted by Roo Stercogburn
Its just the usual NOOO-I-DONT-HAVE-THE-BRAINS-FIGURE-OUT-HOW-TO-FIGHT-THIS-CLASS nonsense that is going on because it requires that for once you change from standard patterns of attack and already the PLAYERS are being separated from those that merely log on with their generic cookie cutter characters.

LOL im glad "players" like you are able to share you wisdom. I'm talking from personal experience after using a variety of methods. I went through thid 90% solo with my sorc and met a few bd's. As i have already said, it was only the rare one with high dmg on the lifetap that killed me after AoE mez. Perhaps you should try reading some of whats been posted instead of making huge assumptions and insulting comments.

 

[old.Tyraette]

Thanks Urgat...though youve earnt yourself some more pain next time i see you for spelling the name wrong wtf is it with you bastards?

Interesting thoughts, and it does lead me to think option 1 is the main option. On account of you probably not wanting to miss out on a nuke to get the debuff in, especially if youre pa'd. I would imagine that wearing cloth, you need all the heals you can get...keeping you alive is a higher priority than killilng me in this situation.

Have you ever been diseased? Assuming that in each case the smart infil uses his disease poison, does it still pan out like described? It strikes me as being the key to the whole conundrum.

The caster is more powerful than the pets, and I dont think as an infil I can afford to leave you alone whilst trying to deal with the pets, so its a case of maximising my damage output against you, whilst reducing yours as much as possible. Disease, str/con, adn dot seem to be the only way to achieve this

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Haedric, people are moaning about Bonies being uber etc when they've been killed a couple of times by them. Assassin classes have found something that requires a different approach and are moaning about them.

Look at the posts where people have applied some thought to it like Muppet's one: after losing to a boney they rethought what they were doing and tried something different next time.

I don't see how its insulting to point out that instead of whining people should be getting on with working out how to take down a particular class rather than just moaning because they blindly attack something then die. Some people are doing that, some are just whining. Please point out where the assumptions are, I don't believe there are any - I have actually pointed out the features/problems of bonedancers on this and other threads about the class and corrected many other people's assumptions and incorrect knowledge of the class (sometimes I get it wrong, I admit this when it happens though). My post is valid and stands.

Interesting and surprising that you personally feel insulted though

 

[CliffyG]

Where did i once say BD's where Uber? As i have already said i have tried lots of tactics and didn't attack blindly, please read what i've written . I wasn't whining i was pointing out a fact, and in my opinion the 4 second timer is too quick for an instant cast spell. I quoted the bit where you where making assumptions in my previous post, i don't feel insulted at all just annoyed that you have made such broad sweeping statements about anyone who posts against the BD's.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Ah I see now. Sequentially that post of mine came after yours.

You've assumed my post referred to your post and your post only. The comment that seems to have annoyed you was a reference to a general trend that I find annoying and not to one person or a post by one particular person.

At no point do I quote you and have a pop. Its not me making assumptions matey.

This mean no Christmas card?

 

[CliffyG]

Nope no assumption on my part, i knew it was meant for everyone and i quote :

broad sweeping statements about anyone who posts against the BD's

I was included in that statement though.

And bah Humbug .

 

[Kerram Darktyde]

Originally posted by Haedric Griffin
Where did i once say BD's where Uber? As i have already said i have tried lots of tactics and didn't attack blindly, please read what i've written . I wasn't whining i was pointing out a fact, and in my opinion the 4 second timer is too quick for an instant cast spell. I quoted the bit where you where making assumptions in my previous post, i don't feel insulted at all just annoyed that you have made such broad sweeping statements about anyone who posts against the BD's.

So the necro 3s Insta (necro casts pet insta) is not fast????

 

[Cap'n Sissyfoo]

I found it quite easy to take down Boney Dancers in BG1 with my slash infi. I was using a jambiya and a sabre with level 25 DoT on my main blade (36-43 per tick) and the level 22 str/con debuff on my off-hand blade. To be honest, I never tried PAing them but crept up behind and did BSII followed by a Thigh Cut. If the bugger was still breathing after that then I followed up with a few Garrottes and the majority of Boney dancers would drop after that. With the debuffing, DoTing my high dex/qui and the constant whacking I don't think they stood much of a chance.

I am still shocked that 2 infi's both using PAs on a SITTING target failed to kill a Boney Dancer. They must have screwed up somewhere...

From what I have gathered in all my BG outings as an infi, be it slash or thrust, a sitting enemy is a free RP lunch.

 

[old.Tyraette]

I'll say once again...

two pa's ...two separate targets

i wouldnt base the overpowered thread on just this one occasion..i would imagine that both dancers were lifetapping the same infil first of all, then switch targets.

thats how id do it anyway

 

[CliffyG]

Originally posted by Kerram Darktyde
So the necro 3s Insta (necro casts pet insta) is not fast????

Yes it is fast but i didn't even know they had instas till you said it and I wasn't even talking about them.

 

[Urgat Rip-Eye]

Hehe

Appologies about the name... im a troll... what can i say.

Urgat is in fact a shaman. So feel free to PA me. Dont be surprised when i Ichour root you - run away, then turn round and kite you to death.


My bonedancer (Oniony Head) is actualy only 24 atm. But will be leveled as soon as Urgat hits 50.

I was speaking form my experience in testing lvl 50 bonedancers as E&E, and my experience in thid with Oniony (which i know is not a ideal basis for end game rvr)

Regards the debuff i was talking about, I was under the impression, that the debuf (in the dark line) lowered the resist to the lifetap damage. But, after checking catacombs, it seems it is a lower cold resist shout, whilst the LT is body damage. Thus it would appear to help the baseline nukes and not the lifetap.

Can anyone confirm this 100% - i have seen numerous posts on a debuf that ups the lifetap damage... I asumed it was the debuf in the darkspec line.

Despite this...

Interesting thoughts, and it does lead me to think option 1 is the main option. On account of you probably not wanting to miss out on a nuke to get the debuff in, especially if youre pa'd. I would imagine that wearing cloth, you need all the heals you can get...keeping you alive is a higher priority than killing me in this situation.

This is where your problem lies. You are right... an infs best chance, imo, is to take out the SUP BD ASAP. But i seriously dont think it is possible solo - not taking into account ludicrous luck (crits... etc)

The PA does massive damage... but the /face & Lifetap, in responce imediately heals a lot of that damage. I can continue to LT you as the healers join in to keep me healed - this has the effect of keeping me alive, at the same time as damaging (and eventually killing) you.

I have no recolection of the effects on desease on the pet heals, and the lifetap life transfer. However... if it follows basic game mechanics... then it SHOULD half the effectivness of all the life gained from the above methods. And... would seem to be an assassin's BEST shot at out damaging a constant state of heals and lifetaps.

The only other thing i can say is this...

The healers take a few seconds to start there work... That is why the Defense reaction of a sup BD is so crucial. The initial life tap is neccicary to give sufficient HP, to avoid death whilst the healers kick in.

Stop the immedieate Tap. And you stand a good chance of killing a BD with your next attack or two... before the healers realise they need to heal...

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.Alliandre
Minstrels and classes with amnesia should be able to kill them pretty easily. Use amnesia on the pet commander and it should die. I'm not sure if this still works, but I know I use to be able to kill pets with it.

And if you spec an Enchanter for solo PvE (put alot into enchantments) you can solo low purples. I've done it before. Although you will be abit rubbish in RvR if you do this, it's great fun for a while.

Minstrel doesn't have amnesia.

 

[CliffyG]

How does amnesia kill a pet?