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Meatballs
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- #31
as punkbuster server was not stable on either win32 or linux when we tried them for the public servers I doubt they could be implemented for the league until they shape up.
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old.Viking_EUK
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- #32
Use the new maps and punkbuster
Why not use the new maps that will come out in CS 1.2/1.3 and make punkbuster required to play.
We have 15+ members in our Clan, so any day is fine with us, even more than one game a week would be nice too.
Just an idear, what do you think?
=[3LIT3]=Viking=[UK]=
Clan Leader
PS: Fancy a friendly please visit http://www.eliteuk.cjb.net/
Why not use the new maps that will come out in CS 1.2/1.3 and make punkbuster required to play.
We have 15+ members in our Clan, so any day is fine with us, even more than one game a week would be nice too.
Just an idear, what do you think?
=[3LIT3]=Viking=[UK]=
Clan Leader
PS: Fancy a friendly please visit http://www.eliteuk.cjb.net/
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old.Cooger
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- #33
Lower buytime to 30 secs, everything else left the same 
Regards,
Coog
Regards,
Coog
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old.Elem
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- #34
1) 2/3 nights is a small issue; personally we'd be happy with either (so long as it aint friday or saturday).
2) 5v5 is becomming the standard, why keep bwcsl in the ice ages with 6v6 ? Buytime 30 yes please - theres no plausable reason not to have it as short as possible. Roundtime 4 is better than 5.
3) Custom maps ? No thanks. The only sensible war-maps are de_ maps and the following maps make for good wars:
Dust, dust2, cbble, nuke, aztec, train, prodigy, (inferno).
cs_ maps make for poor wars because the chances of actually getting the hostages out before one team is eliminated is practically zero - its basically biased DM. (In constrast the bomb plays a huge role in de_ maps).
Having seen wpcsl, UKLA are strongly agaisnt custom maps.
Oh and one more thing: PB REQUIRED !!! - the inclusion of PB doubles the quality of any game, because it removes the sense of mistrust - if you cant host it permenantly on your ports get the admin to host it temporarily for each match on his pc (it dont lag that much).
Kind Regards
[UKLA]Elem
2) 5v5 is becomming the standard, why keep bwcsl in the ice ages with 6v6 ? Buytime 30 yes please - theres no plausable reason not to have it as short as possible. Roundtime 4 is better than 5.
3) Custom maps ? No thanks. The only sensible war-maps are de_ maps and the following maps make for good wars:
Dust, dust2, cbble, nuke, aztec, train, prodigy, (inferno).
cs_ maps make for poor wars because the chances of actually getting the hostages out before one team is eliminated is practically zero - its basically biased DM. (In constrast the bomb plays a huge role in de_ maps).
Having seen wpcsl, UKLA are strongly agaisnt custom maps.
Oh and one more thing: PB REQUIRED !!! - the inclusion of PB doubles the quality of any game, because it removes the sense of mistrust - if you cant host it permenantly on your ports get the admin to host it temporarily for each match on his pc (it dont lag that much).
Kind Regards
[UKLA]Elem
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old.zog
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- #35
Anyone care to explain the advantages of 5v5 over 6v6, other than "it's becoming standard" (with all due respect to those that have pointed that out)?
As far as I see it, the smaller the teams, the more emphasis on individual 1v1 skills and less on teamwork...which I personally (and indeed, the rest of my clan I believe) don't like the sound of. Not to mention the reduced tactical flexibility.
Thanks,
[pp]zog
As far as I see it, the smaller the teams, the more emphasis on individual 1v1 skills and less on teamwork...which I personally (and indeed, the rest of my clan I believe) don't like the sound of. Not to mention the reduced tactical flexibility.
Thanks,
[pp]zog
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mr_greedy
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- #36
I couldn't agree more with the previous message - CS is a team game, and that's the element we're all in clans for. Likewise, prestige competitions like the BWCSL should be the pinnacle of this idea - to reduce it to a spruced up deathmatch would be completely contrary to the whole idea of CS.
If you want a frag-fest, go to a public server.
If you want a frag-fest, go to a public server.
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old.Elem
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- #37
5v5 over 6v6:
Ill do my best (albeit probably not good enough) to explain it:
1) "Its becomming the standard". Indeed so. The pinnacle of all cs tournaments is of course the CPL, which endorses 5v5 - and as a professional organisation, it has considered 6on6 and rejected it. So retaining 6on6 is only going to be temporary (as more and more leagues/tournaments convert to 5on5) - so why wait to change to the inevitable?
Of course that alone is not enough...
2) As mentioned, a lot of clans, on the night, have trouble getting 6 (we've all experienced it, when a clan member for some reason cant make the game, leaving you one short). Chances are more full games would be played if only 5 players were needed per side - which surely is good.
3) I can only speak from personal experience, but it seems to me that 5on5 has more teamwork. It's easier to communicate well, the smaller the group, e.g. coordinating 6 is harder than 5. (So the greatest teamwork is achieved with only 2 people, but that isnt a clan game is it) Believe me a group of 5 work much more closely than a group of 6. Of course the difference isnt THAT great; but i believe that a step towards more teamwork is a step in the right direction.
Hope Ive explained it well enough
Kind Regards
Mark / Elem
Ill do my best (albeit probably not good enough) to explain it:
1) "Its becomming the standard". Indeed so. The pinnacle of all cs tournaments is of course the CPL, which endorses 5v5 - and as a professional organisation, it has considered 6on6 and rejected it. So retaining 6on6 is only going to be temporary (as more and more leagues/tournaments convert to 5on5) - so why wait to change to the inevitable?
Of course that alone is not enough...
2) As mentioned, a lot of clans, on the night, have trouble getting 6 (we've all experienced it, when a clan member for some reason cant make the game, leaving you one short). Chances are more full games would be played if only 5 players were needed per side - which surely is good.
3) I can only speak from personal experience, but it seems to me that 5on5 has more teamwork. It's easier to communicate well, the smaller the group, e.g. coordinating 6 is harder than 5. (So the greatest teamwork is achieved with only 2 people, but that isnt a clan game is it
) Believe me a group of 5 work much more closely than a group of 6. Of course the difference isnt THAT great; but i believe that a step towards more teamwork is a step in the right direction.Hope Ive explained it well enough
Kind Regards
Mark / Elem
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lysander
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- Thread starter
- #38
5v5 vs 6v6
But on the other hand, it shouldn't matter about coordination: if you have a strategy for the map (in X scenario, do B), and eveyone knows what they're meant to be doing.
and come on.. 1 (leader) talking to 4 players instead of 5 ?
that is an 80% (WOW! it's so much easier to tell everyone what to do now! I'll even have time to do the washing up!!!!1) coordination reduction, and as a round progresses, you lose players, so they should stop talking over voicecomms (if you have a "if player = dead then mute_player" rule ). And if you don't use voicecomms, see my first point about people knowing what to do (and then performing their set roles *cough*)
Many maps , and indeed the game itself, are not designed for 5v5, since if you split a team to cover two areas, any rush as 5 at an area guarded by 2 opponents would be a great deal harder to stop, whereas 3 guarding vs 6 is easier. Harder to do the rush
You need 6 players to safely allow for events on most if not all maps.
Quite frankly, if a clan cannot get 6 players on-the-night (having had a week to prepare, in most cases), well, they really aren't up to standard.
Any organised clan would (IN MY OPINION) have at least 6 dedicated players and then 6 or more active reserves in the eventuality of a first squad member being unavailable for the night.
my 20 rands worth.
[pp]Zurg
But on the other hand, it shouldn't matter about coordination: if you have a strategy for the map (in X scenario, do B), and eveyone knows what they're meant to be doing.
and come on.. 1 (leader) talking to 4 players instead of 5 ?
that is an 80% (WOW! it's so much easier to tell everyone what to do now! I'll even have time to do the washing up!!!!1) coordination reduction, and as a round progresses, you lose players, so they should stop talking over voicecomms (if you have a "if player = dead then mute_player" rule
). And if you don't use voicecomms, see my first point about people knowing what to do (and then performing their set roles *cough*)Many maps , and indeed the game itself, are not designed for 5v5, since if you split a team to cover two areas, any rush as 5 at an area guarded by 2 opponents would be a great deal harder to stop, whereas 3 guarding vs 6 is easier. Harder to do the rush
You need 6 players to safely allow for events on most if not all maps.
Quite frankly, if a clan cannot get 6 players on-the-night (having had a week to prepare, in most cases), well, they really aren't up to standard.
Any organised clan would (IN MY OPINION) have at least 6 dedicated players and then 6 or more active reserves in the eventuality of a first squad member being unavailable for the night.
my 20 rands worth.
[pp]Zurg
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mr_greedy
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- #39
Re: 5v5 vs 6v6
Spot on
V
vuz
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- #40
Punkbuster: while it doesn't appear the most stable program over a period of time, perhaps the admin who referees the game (I 'presume' you have one in BWCSL matches) could host it surely?
Never seen any problems with this
Never seen any problems with this
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mr_greedy
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- #41
Originally posted by -Insanity-
once again, I'm not saying 5v5 is better than 6v6
all I'm saying is that it's in the league's best interest to switch to 5v5, because it would mean a lot of french/belgian/dutch clans would play in the league's next season too (as is the case in Q3CTF/Q3DM)
The league is massively oversubscribed as it is, I don't think changing to 5v5 is either necessary or important for the prosperity of the competition.
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old.Elem
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- #42
Tbh i think the most important thing, which overshadows any other change, is the possible inclusion of Punkbuster.
If PB cannot be hosted on bw servers permenantly (i cant understand why though, everyone else manages it) then at least get the admin to temporarily host PB on his machine for the match he is adminning ?
Elem
If PB cannot be hosted on bw servers permenantly (i cant understand why though, everyone else manages it) then at least get the admin to temporarily host PB on his machine for the match he is adminning ?
Elem
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old.zog
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- #43
Don't quote me on this, but I think I heard PB has stability problems on certain multiprocessor machines - like the ones BW use, I believe.
I've mixed views on PB. People claim there are hacks for PB itself, which would kind of defeat the point of using it, wouldn't it? If people are determined to cheat, they'd just go and get a hack that does that too... Still, it'd at least make things more awkward for cheaters, I guess. I suppose it depends on how widespread hacks for PB are in comparison to other cheats.
/me just prays they fix the cheating properly in 1.3...
I've mixed views on PB. People claim there are hacks for PB itself, which would kind of defeat the point of using it, wouldn't it? If people are determined to cheat, they'd just go and get a hack that does that too... Still, it'd at least make things more awkward for cheaters, I guess. I suppose it depends on how widespread hacks for PB are in comparison to other cheats.
/me just prays they fix the cheating properly in 1.3...
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old.Elem
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- #44
ah but even if someone did manage to stop themselves from getting a violation (difficult, even if you hack PB it gets updated twice a week or somin); there is no way around the admin remotely (via PB) requesting screenshots at a random time from all connected players. So if you were using a wallhack then ur screenshot would be v dodgey - and you dont know its being taken until it is - so u cant turn it off etc.
PB is essential these days
Elem
- and you dont know its being taken until it is - so u cant turn it off etc.PB is essential these days
Elem
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old.[GT1]Dr_Evil
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- #45
PunkBuster will have to be in use if the league is to be taken seriously. The sheer number of cheats about makes a league without PB, especially if there are prizes (hint hint ) would be giving cheats a reward. A common misconception is that PB has to be run of the server PC, which is simply not true. If there are stabiliy issues on multi processor machines simply run it from another machine with a single processor. Need any help mail me.
Personally I believe that 5 vs 5 is the standard for CS. It just seems to me that here in the UK we are very slow to adapt to what everyone else is using. I talk about CO rules, 5 v 5, FF On etc.
The whole point is that by having five players there is a 'gap' in the defence. The real skill and fun is for the defending team to plan for this and for the attackers to find it. Having 3 people each at 2 choke points is boring and a no brainer IMO.
Agree with Elem about the maps and that custom maps are not a good idea. However the inclusion of Italy, which is about the only cs map that can be played in a war will add some variety.
) would be giving cheats a reward. A common misconception is that PB has to be run of the server PC, which is simply not true. If there are stabiliy issues on multi processor machines simply run it from another machine with a single processor. Need any help mail me.Personally I believe that 5 vs 5 is the standard for CS. It just seems to me that here in the UK we are very slow to adapt to what everyone else is using. I talk about CO rules, 5 v 5, FF On etc.
Many maps , and indeed the game itself, are not designed for 5v5, since if you split a team to cover two areas, any rush as 5 at an area guarded by 2 opponents would be a great deal harder to stop, whereas 3 guarding vs 6 is easier. Harder to do the rush
The whole point is that by having five players there is a 'gap' in the defence. The real skill and fun is for the defending team to plan for this and for the attackers to find it. Having 3 people each at 2 choke points is boring and a no brainer IMO.
Agree with Elem about the maps and that custom maps are not a good idea. However the inclusion of Italy, which is about the only cs map that can be played in a war will add some variety.
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old.zog
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- #46
OK. I've recently had a chance to play more 5v5 CS at i8, and so I feel I can make a better comparison now.
I think the fundamental problem with 6v6 is that it's too easy for the defending side on "2 chokepoint" maps, like Dr_Evil has pointed out. Unfortunately, that's an awful lot of them (one of my pet hates about CS, in fact). Maps with more alternatives generally play much better, in my experience (roll on de_torn in 1.3, etc.).
I did find that a lot of the games our clan played at i8 were very close. In particular, maps like de_prodigy were actually vaguely fun for a change, as the CTs are often forced to MOVE from their initial defensive positions in response to the threats because they don't have the manpower to camp both chokepoints, in general. It's still generally biased in their favour, but the Ts seem to have more of a chance.
In fact, playing as the defending team is quite a bit more fun too (albeit more difficult, especially on larger maps like dust2), as it's even more vital to respond quickly to your team's cries for backup, and the teamwork involved probably needs to be better than for 6v6 where 2 squads of 3 can just camp each bomb area, on the whole. OK, that's kind of teamwork, but the communication and moving in as reinforcements isn't quite as necessary, since 3 well-armed defenders in a good ambush position can probably kill most of a 6 man rush, as people have already pointed out.
I'd like to hope this is the reason for places using 5v5, anyway. I haven't seen much in the way of an explanation anywhere, except for Dr_Evil's efforts above.
Overall? I think I actually prefer 5v5 for the moment; at least until more maps with fewer chokepoints come out.
I think the fundamental problem with 6v6 is that it's too easy for the defending side on "2 chokepoint" maps, like Dr_Evil has pointed out. Unfortunately, that's an awful lot of them (one of my pet hates about CS, in fact).
Maps with more alternatives generally play much better, in my experience (roll on de_torn in 1.3, etc.).I did find that a lot of the games our clan played at i8 were very close. In particular, maps like de_prodigy were actually vaguely fun for a change, as the CTs are often forced to MOVE from their initial defensive positions in response to the threats because they don't have the manpower to camp both chokepoints, in general. It's still generally biased in their favour, but the Ts seem to have more of a chance.
In fact, playing as the defending team is quite a bit more fun too (albeit more difficult, especially on larger maps like dust2), as it's even more vital to respond quickly to your team's cries for backup, and the teamwork involved probably needs to be better than for 6v6 where 2 squads of 3 can just camp each bomb area, on the whole. OK, that's kind of teamwork, but the communication and moving in as reinforcements isn't quite as necessary, since 3 well-armed defenders in a good ambush position can probably kill most of a 6 man rush, as people have already pointed out.
I'd like to hope this is the reason for places using 5v5, anyway. I haven't seen much in the way of an explanation anywhere, except for Dr_Evil's efforts above.
Overall? I think I actually prefer 5v5 for the moment; at least until more maps with fewer chokepoints come out.
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old.<<S=O=D>>Spook
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- #47
:sleeping:
How about answering my thread........?
in the menu b4?
what league are we in plz?
spook
How about answering my thread........?
in the menu b4?
what league are we in plz?
spook
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old.Weevil
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- #48
\o/
i own u all
gl cs-b will own, and ill be organising a day or 2
i own u all
gl cs-b will own, and ill be organising a day or 2
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old.Weevil
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- #49
we dont want euros in the league though?
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[A&I]Lilly Monster
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- #50
Ok so my last h00j post got 0wned by the forum so ill make this 1 qwik :/.
1) 3 nights good, more people play, more competition, more fun - god idea !!
2)
- 30 sec buytime is a must !! no more spammage.
- 5 min roundtime with CO throughout competition to get the most action and no camping cs.
- 6v6 is best for UK based league run by major UK GSP. Euros can go play Euro leagues, clans upset over 6v6 can let clans who don't moan play instead - everyone happy.
3) Custom maps are a bit poo imo, with 1.3 l337 new maps like de_torn will be great to play, so lets use some of them
Finally damn this forum for eating my super long previous post.
1) 3 nights good, more people play, more competition, more fun - god idea !!
2)
- 30 sec buytime is a must !! no more spammage
.- 5 min roundtime with CO throughout competition to get the most action and no camping cs
.- 6v6 is best for UK based league run by major UK GSP. Euros can go play Euro leagues, clans upset over 6v6 can let clans who don't moan play instead - everyone happy
.3) Custom maps are a bit poo imo, with 1.3 l337 new maps like de_torn will be great to play, so lets use some of them
Finally damn this forum for eating my super long previous post
.
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mr_greedy
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- #51
Soooo.... 1.3 is finally out - when can we expect things to start happenning league-wise?
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bigfoot
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- #52
Soon, we are tidying up the admins list currently to get an idea of where things stand. I will be contacting some folks who offered to admin after the end of the season, unfortunately though i doubt we will be able to support more than 72 clans, with over 660 on the "list", there are going to be plenty of unhappy clans.
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Grom
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- #53
That was ages ago - the PB server was horrendous then, even the client was shite and required you to connect in a strange way. However it's all sorted now.
If I can run PB, a Roger Wilco server and play a 6v6 game of CS all on a P3-800 on ADSL I'm sure BW would have no trouble.
Grom
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old.seekjonesie
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- Thread starter
- #54
1) Thoughts on spreading League across 3 (or more) nights instead of 2.
3 nights would be easier to cover on an admin basis
2) Changes to games, such as:
- lower buytime (30secs vs. 90secs)
- shorter roundtime (4 mins instead of 5)
- team sizes (5v5 instead of 6v6)
got to be 5 on 5
3) Using some custom maps
Good idea, we have some corkers on here
http://clans.barrysworld.net/sk187/maps.htm
I would personally choose as replacements
de_prodigy2k_final1.1
cs_militia2k1.zip
and add
cs_balkanconflict.zip
cs_sealed.zip
so why not this ...
de_dust
de_prodigy2k_final1.1
de_dust2
de_inferno
cs_balkanconflict.zip
cs_sealed.zip
cs_militia2k1.zip
cs_italy
Militia and prodigy are pretty similar to the original, low learning curve and they
play so much better
keep the classics, dusty, italy etc and mix in some top new maps.
Oh and 1 other thing if we are having knifeys to choose sides can we have
ka_colosseum lol that would be wicked.
3 nights would be easier to cover on an admin basis
2) Changes to games, such as:
- lower buytime (30secs vs. 90secs)
- shorter roundtime (4 mins instead of 5)
- team sizes (5v5 instead of 6v6)
got to be 5 on 5
3) Using some custom maps
Good idea, we have some corkers on here
http://clans.barrysworld.net/sk187/maps.htm
I would personally choose as replacements
de_prodigy2k_final1.1
cs_militia2k1.zip
and add
cs_balkanconflict.zip
cs_sealed.zip
so why not this ...
de_dust
de_prodigy2k_final1.1
de_dust2
de_inferno
cs_balkanconflict.zip
cs_sealed.zip
cs_militia2k1.zip
cs_italy
Militia and prodigy are pretty similar to the original, low learning curve and they
play so much better
keep the classics, dusty, italy etc and mix in some top new maps.
Oh and 1 other thing if we are having knifeys to choose sides can we have
ka_colosseum lol that would be wicked.