New patch, sbs happy now?xD

[XeffoInfil]

:kissit: i reckon the rest of the CS infils will have to go DW now. More damage output 4tw!! then the stun wont be needed :kissit:

 

[gervaise]

all this crap saying if u get this and that then we want to use 2h too.

free 2 hand usage is a special ability free to midgard only, just like albion get the use of plate like no other realm does. saying infils should get that is just idiotic.

The advantage of plate was banished when they introduced +/- damage to various armour types. And when I last looked infs, scouts and mercs - all impacted by the DF nerf (as well as armsmen and pallies) don't wear plate.

 

[Dreami]

The advantage of plate was banished when they introduced +/- damage to various armour types. And when I last looked infs, scouts and mercs - all impacted by the DF nerf (as well as armsmen and pallies) don't wear plate.

Since when armsmen and pallies has had evade ?

 

[Svartur]

Woot!?!

A thread with infils whining... never thought I'd see one
And whining on Nightshades to... pathetic

Deal with it
You have been on easystreet way to long and you are still there...

 

[Shike]

Yeah, but its still a two-hander to PA with

infs.. pa.. u kiddin?

aint many infs that bother with PA tbh.. mostly they just start hitting stuff.

edit: shud add that most SBs do exact same thing they dont even try.. just unstealth so their buddies can finish it off.

 

[bigchief]

infs.. pa.. u kiddin?

aint many infs that bother with PA tbh.. mostly they just start hitting stuff.

edit: shud add that most SBs do exact same thing they dont even try.. just unstealth so their buddies can finish it off.

[15:26](bigchief): tell marath his mate put me off :/
[15:26](bigchief): expected him to PA
[15:26](Marath): big I saw
[15:26](Marath): only got 800 ... you would have won
[15:26](bigchief): aye prolly Marath
[15:27](bigchief): didnt even see u till ud hit me
[15:27](Marath): had combat mode on

its skill honest

 

[Dook]

It'll still be a decent style and the fact that Infs get to keep 2.5 specpoints is more than enough compensation IMO.

They can still go 50 in 1/2 lines and not gimp themselves, what's the whining about?

 

[Thugs]

Balanced?

Give us SBs the ability to use hammers. Balance is complete! Simple solution to an age old problem. After all a la zerker can use the sodding things? Can't a SB pick up a hammer then? For effsake if i am skilled in la in rl (real life hehe) i could pick up a flipping tyre iron (wot the hell is a tyre iron? - well any damn thing then) and use it as good as anything so why can't a sb pick up a sodding hammer?

Grrrrrrrrrrr

Certi - 46 SB

 

[Puppet]

Give us SBs the ability to use hammers. Balance is complete! Simple solution to an age old problem. After all a la zerker can use the sodding things? Can't a SB pick up a hammer then? For effsake if i am skilled in la in rl (real life hehe) i could pick up a flipping tyre iron (wot the hell is a tyre iron? - well any damn thing then) and use it as good as anything so why can't a sb pick up a sodding hammer?

Grrrrrrrrrrr

Certi - 46 SB

Yep Im a skilled lurikeen enchanter; so small its easy for me to hide. Might as well give me stealth.

Oh and since im so dexterious I would say; give me advanced evade 9. And give the enemy a natural 10% chance to flat-out miss me. Im so small; hard to hit!

 

[Shike]

Give us SBs the ability to use hammers. Balance is complete! Simple solution to an age old problem. After all a la zerker can use the sodding things? Can't a SB pick up a hammer then? For effsake if i am skilled in la in rl (real life hehe) i could pick up a flipping tyre iron (wot the hell is a tyre iron? - well any damn thing then) and use it as good as anything so why can't a sb pick up a sodding hammer?

Grrrrrrrrrrr

Certi - 46 SB

with that logic Infils should maybe have polearms to PA with?

or, I should really be able to heatdebuff+nuke with my NS since I have a magicusing (lol!!) assassin?

or, wizards should be able to cast timestop? Since they can do just that in AD&D?

etc. You get the point matey

 

[Morchaoron]

with that logic Infils should maybe have polearms to PA with?
or, I should really be able to heatdebuff+nuke with my NS since I have a magicusing (lol!!) assassin?
or, wizards should be able to cast timestop? Since they can do just that in AD&D?
etc. You get the point matey

actually performing such a delecate style as PA with such a long weapon as a polearm might be near impossible...

actually magic could be considered a skill and very hard to learn so not everyone can cast all spells...

but picking up a weapon and swinging it?? come on how hard can that be...
"im standing behind a enemy who hasnt spotted me, i only have a 8kg battlehammer in my backpack but i cant use it i dont know how, i only know to use axes and swords... damn if only i had a weapon...."

i never had a polearm training irl, but i bet that when someone gives me a halberd im pretty sure i could swing it and kill people with it

(please note he only asked for the ability 'to use hammers' not to spec them)

 

[Korax]

actually performing such a delecate style as PA with such a long weapon as a polearm might be near impossible...

Well, you can PA with staffs...
Makes you wonder don't it? How do you perforate an artery with a staff?

Skill I say, and tbh, would be alot easier with a polearm.

 

[Ormorof]

Well, you can PA with staffs...
Makes you wonder don't it? How do you perforate an artery with a staff?

Skill I say, and tbh, would be alot easier with a polearm.

you hit it SO hard, it bursts the artery, or something

or you hit them, and they burst and artery laughing at your damage

 

[bigchief]

Give us SBs the ability to use hammers. Balance is complete! Simple solution to an age old problem. After all a la zerker can use the sodding things? Can't a SB pick up a hammer then? For effsake if i am skilled in la in rl (real life hehe) i could pick up a flipping tyre iron (wot the hell is a tyre iron? - well any damn thing then) and use it as good as anything so why can't a sb pick up a sodding hammer?

Grrrrrrrrrrr

Certi - 46 SB

what he actually means is:

omg alb and hib leather is crush weak, GIVE ME A FKING CRUSHER.

Mid leathers actually crush neutral so has less impact vs them

 

[Melachi]

Small thing I notice nobody ever mention, seeing as recently it was discovered that dual wielding halfs evade, SB's who dual wield have a small advantage over Infs and NS's that dual wield, as the LA mechanics mean the enemeis evade is allways halved, yet depending on spec of DW/CD off hand doesnt allways swing and in these instances I imagine that the targets evade isnt halved.

Anyway, imo of all the things overpowered about Infiltrators, Dragon Fang was last on the list....

2.5 spec points is the real offender, just take a tiny small comparison, ignoring styles for a sec...

35stealth
35Envenom
49 Dual Wield
49 Weapon

-versus-

35 Stealth
35 Envenom
44 Left Axe
44 Weapon

Both have equal stealth and envenom, but due to higher weapon spec the infil has higher weapon skill

and due to higher dual wield spec the shadowblade only has a DPS of 154.92% compared to the 158.32% DPS of the infil.


If I was balancing Infils, nerfing them to 2.2 per level would be the way to go, then patch them up in other areas, but noway should they have more spec points compared to their other realm counterparts.

Its like the situation with the Armsman and the Warrior, from an Armsmans POV its allmost like the Warrior can spec, 50pole,50weap,50shield,28parry, and in return they get Plate armour ? Same as the SB's free hps, not balancing!

 

[Morchaoron]

Well, you can PA with staffs...
Makes you wonder don't it? How do you perforate an artery with a staff?

Skill I say, and tbh, would be alot easier with a polearm.

well it doesnt really deal THAT much damage does it?

 

[bigchief]

2.5 spec points is the real offender, just take a tiny small comparison, ignoring styles for a sec...

35stealth
35Envenom
49 Dual Wield
49 Weapon

-versus-

35 Stealth
35 Envenom
44 Left Axe
44 Weapon

Both have equal stealth and envenom, but due to higher weapon spec the infil has higher weapon skill

and due to higher dual wield spec the shadowblade only has a DPS of 154.92% compared to the 158.32% DPS of the infil.

But ofc you cant ignore styles. If thats a thrust inf the ONLY worthwhile styles are at 50thrust and 50dw. So he has to gimp stealth or/and env to get a style worth using in rvr. A slash inf can get away with 44 weapon but would have the same weapon skill as the sb

If infs go 2.2 spec points the entire thrust line (not dragonwhine) needs a revamp, there is only one style worth using in thrust and thats at lvl50. Needless to say I dont think thats the case in most other style lines (with the possible exception of dw as mentioned above )

 

[Shike]

But ofc you cant ignore styles. If thats a thrust inf the ONLY worthwhile styles are at 50thrust and 50dw. So he has to gimp stealth or/and env to get a style worth using in rvr. A slash inf can get away with 44 weapon but would have the same weapon skill as the sb

If infs go 2.2 spec points the entire thrust line (not dragonwhine) needs a revamp, there is only one style worth using in thrust and thats at lvl50. Needless to say I dont think thats the case in most other style lines (with the possible exception of dw as mentioned above )

wtf is wrong with CS? If you went down to 2.2 u'd have same options as NSs... our bladeline is total crap.. your slash is actually very good, our pierce is crap except for DB, your thrust is in same boat.... our CD is also total crap for NSs... your DW is nice with DS at 50..

why do u want to have more than a counterpart?

 

[Araudry]

wtf is wrong with CS? If you went down to 2.2 u'd have same options as NSs... our bladeline is total crap.. your slash is actually very good, our pierce is crap except for DB, your thrust is in same boat.... our CD is also total crap for NSs... your DW is nice with DS at 50..

why do u want to have more than a counterpart?

dw is nice need 50 aah
thrust is nice need 50 aswell aah
slash is nice my ass no stun style and it drain end so fast and at low rr its not enought dmg (no relics now)
now look at the stun style sb/ns get do they need 50 in any spec? aha

 

[Dracus]

dw is nice need 50 aah
thrust is nice need 50 aswell aah
slash is nice my ass no stun style and it drain end so fast and at low rr its not enought dmg (no relics now)
now look at the stun style sb/ns get do they need 50 in any spec? aha

Are you living in denial? how many times have u been stunned by a SB? frosty gaze sucks. But then you prolly havent played an SB. And as far as blade styles...they may suck end, but u think its different for LA specced SBs?(the majority of SBs afaik) we compensate and use a mediocre anytime(usually snowblind) because doublefrost uses ur end bar in 6'ish swings. Is it the same for ame slash? but oh..lets review the difference:

Amethyst Slash end use=M, damage=M to hit= very high(wtf?) and no defense bonus/penalty

Double frost end use=H, damage=H, to hit=L(aww great style eh?) no defense mods here either...

I dont even wanna compare ame slash to axe/sword anytimes...

So i can see you have reason to QQ about ur styles...sheesh.

/Dracus

 

[Sycho]

Amethyst slash is overated but the to hit is nice though doublefrost does take too much end, should be 50% less and frosty glaze is good IF YOU CAN land it but doesn't take away the ability of the sb not being a solid class still just not on equal terms in certain situations.

 

[Lyrre]

I stunned Arauddry yesterday with frozty gaze, felt damn good to move up behind and use snowsquall and he didnt purge either

Well the fact is that if a sb want both a decent weaponskill and the stun, it cost more specpoints then it cost an infil to go to 50 in thrust.

Sb at lvl 50 will have 3253 points (without autotrain) and to get 39 weapon/leftaxe (common weaponspec and 39 is stun in leftaxe) it will cost the sb 779*2=1558 points. This is 1558/3253*100=48% of a sb total specpoints

An infil at lvl 50 have 3706 points (no autotrain) and 50 in thrust cost 1274 points. This is 1274/3706*100=34% of an infils total specpoints.

So I really dont get it when an infil come and claim that a sb have it so easy cause we have a stun at only 39 spec... use your brain lads

The sb specced 39/39 use 1558 points, for these points an infil can get 50 thrust and 23 dualwield, what would you choose?

Hmmm, higher weaponskill and stun right off evade or... lower weaponskill and stun second in chain... I know what I would choose =)

 

[Section]

2.5 specpts...
is there a reason WHY they have it?

also, thx lyrre for that great analysis

 

[Melachi]

Another reason SB's are at a disadvantage is because of the way LA is still (bugged) or "working in a stupid way though intended" is because off-hand weaponskill is calculated from Left Axe spec and not Main Hand weaponskill, though this is small its still a disadvantage for any SB who has lower Left Axe Spec than Weapon Spec!

Otherwise LA and DW/CD are balanced!


Next part is long and full of numbers so skip if you dont care :x
[edit] should really put this in another post oO



Btw Ive noticed alot of people are under the infulence that SB's or Zerkers with 0 in LA spec think they will do less damage if they use 2 weapons instead of just a main hand, they wont (in optimal conditions).
For arguements sake take a hypothetical char who hits at cap damage allways and never misses, and has a standard base damage of 100 points, and uses a style which adds 50% damage too the base damage.

SB1

First the guy swinging with no off-hand with a 4 speed Cleaver, and his cap base damage is 100, and his style adds 50%.

|  Time  |   Mainhand with no offhand  |  Total Damage     |
-----------------------------------------------------------
|  0 sec |     100 base + 50 style     |        150         |
|  1 sec |
|  2 sec |
|  3 sec |
|  4 sec |     100 base + 50 style     |        300         |
|  5 sec |
|  6 sec |
|  7 sec |
|  8 sec |     100 base + 50 style     |        450         |
|  9 sec |
| 10 sec |
| 11 sec |
| 12 sec |     100 base + 50 style     |        600         |

So he does 600 damage in 12 seconds.




Now its SB2's turn using two cleavers, (just for ignoring Haste mechanics which confuses ).

This SB has 0 LA spec btw, so his base damage is at 62.84% of what it was before he equiped the offhand Cleaver. So he will do 62.84 base damage with both hands and 50% style damage on his main hand!

|  Time  |           Mainhand         |     Offhand      |  Total Damage  |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
|  0 sec |  62.84 base + 31.42 style |       62.84       |        157.1       |
|  1 sec |
|  2 sec |
|  3 sec |
|  4 sec |  62.84 base + 31.42 style |       62.84       |        314.2       |
|  5 sec |
|  6 sec |
|  7 sec |
|  8 sec |  62.84 base + 31.42 style |       62.84       |        471.3       |
|  9 sec |
| 10 sec |
| 11 sec |
| 12 sec |  62.84 base + 31.42 style |       62.84       |        628.4       |

So the guy using two Cleavers outdamages the guy using one by 28.4, which is a 4.73% damage increase, of course this is in optimal conditions.

But theres the drawback, will base cap damage be equal on both hands since LA is at 0 spec?, answer I dont know as I cant test but it shouldnt, but Id imagine it wouldnt be too much lower though, though variance could be troubling, I think though it would lower the SB2's damage a bit, but Id say to around what the first guys damage is. But theres then the advantages of being able to apply two poisons at once and having two procs fire

PA Damage would even be higher with SB2
Assuming SB1 and SB2 have both specced 50 CS and 0 Left Axe.... (weapon spec is irrelevant as we assume 100 is cap base damage)

Formulas: Perforate Artery Cap = 75 + Critical Strike Spec * 9 + Nonstyle Cap 
          Backstab II Cap = 45 + Critical Strike Spec * 6 + Nonstyle Cap 
          Backstab I Cap = ~5 + Critical Strike Spec * 14 / 3 + Nonstyle Cap 


SB1 : 75 + (50 * 9) + 100 = 625
SB2 : 75 + (50 * 9) + 62.84 = 587.84 + (offhand unstyled hit) 62.84 = 650.68!

Btw, peeps please weed out any problems ive made, or false assumptions im under, criticism is apprieceated (but not for my spelling )

 

[Sycho]

Whilst playing my zerk i love LA more than dw except the fact that LA has some styles that need reworking on but other than that i still like dual hitting all the time aswell as not spending ra's into dual swinging more later on but increasing my LA styled damage instead, it's probably different for sbs/infs/ns but i am not sure in what way though, maybe the specs/weaponskill.

Both cd/dw and LA have their strengths and weaknesses, after seeing a lot of both in action from my point of view there's not much weaknesses but both work very well in their realms.

 

[Melachi]

Whilst playing my zerk i love LA more than dw except the fact that LA has some styles that need reworking on but other than that i still like dual hitting all the time aswell as not spending ra's into dual swinging more later on but increasing my LA styled damage instead, it's probably different for sbs/infs/ns but i am not sure in what way though, maybe the specs/weaponskill.

Both cd/dw and LA have their strengths and weaknesses, after seeing a lot of both in action from my point of view there's not much weaknesses but both work very well in their realms.

Both CD/DW and LA perform perfectly equal on average, except when weapon spec is greater than off hand spec, CD/DW outperforms LA in this instance (v.slightly) because of LA calculating offhand weapon skill from LA spec, rather than mainhand spec like in CD/DW.
However this works as a benefit also, if LA spec is greater than main-hand spec, but such a spec is rarely taken, especially in berserkers.

 

[Borvo]

Speccin 50 for something hib counterparts gets at lvl 25 is just :kissit:

put in a chain after first evade style or fucking lower to 7 sec max.

Not that I care. might start my fotm slash infil again xDD

why u whine about this...u dont lose a second line to spec in(like NS/SB will if they spec 50 weap) if u spec 50weap u dont weaken another line as u got 2,5...u forgot that one?
silly kiddo...QQ now go and find ur self another FOTM and lvl it to 50 and max it out!

 

[Shike]

dw is nice need 50 aah
thrust is nice need 50 aswell aah
slash is nice my ass no stun style and it drain end so fast and at low rr its not enought dmg (no relics now)
now look at the stun style sb/ns get do they need 50 in any spec? aha

the thing is, it doesnt matter that the styles are at 50.. why? You can afford it and get higher WS for free.

And araudry, I guess 270ish isnt enuff damage with slash on NSleather.

 

[klavrynd]

slash is nice my ass no stun style and it drain end so fast and at low rr its not enought dmg (no relics now)
now look at the stun style sb/ns get do they need 50 in any spec? aha

why do you need stun if you run with 4 all the time and kill the soloer when all of you do one style each? The mincer you're running with has a nice insta stun aswell btw

 

[Damon_D]

Whilst playing my zerk i love LA more than dw except the fact that LA has some styles that need reworking on but other than that i still like dual hitting all the time aswell as not spending ra's into dual swinging more later on but increasing my LA styled damage instead, it's probably different for sbs/infs/ns but i am not sure in what way though, maybe the specs/weaponskill.

Both cd/dw and LA have their strengths and weaknesses, after seeing a lot of both in action from my point of view there's not much weaknesses but both work very well in their realms.

Yeah but on your bezerker you have the points to spend on LA , try to play your berzerker with low LA.. I bet you wont like it much then m8