Nerf what, boost what, why, and how?

[umilard]

Just one of them posts of opinions on how to balance this game. This isn't meant as a flamethread or whinethread, this is what i really think would make this game better/more balanced.


First of all, NERF BUFFBOTS.. set it so you only can buff people in your group and put some kind of range on the buffs. I understand this would be a pain for the "real" shamans/druids/clerics but i don't really see any other solutions..

Resists need a redo, as it is now casters get resisted abit too much, make resists work in some other way, make them resist % of damage instead of fully resisting.. As a counter to pbaoe getting too powerful lower the damage abit on it. Also make determination more expensive / less effective to get more casters in the groups again.

Now on to the classes, will go through em realm by realm..

MID:

Bonedancer - Insane as it is now, change the insta lifedrain to a insta dd instead, a caster shouldn't be able to outmelee meleeclasses.. Bonedancers would still be very viable as a class due to the casting lifedrain and dd, would be a magician that makes kinda good damage and is very hard to interrupt and has kinda good defence still with healing pets.

Savage - Too nasty as it is now, remove determination from this class and other meleeclasses than savages might get groups in mid

Thane - GIVE determination and cheap ras to thanes, would make them very viable for groups.

Berserker - Reduce endurancecost for LAstyles, otherwise fine

Warrior - Fine as it is

Shaman - Fine as it is, great supportclass and very good solo (mastery of kiting)

Hunter - Fine as it is

Shadowblade - Give them Vanish and lower endurancecost abit for LAstyles, otherwise fine

Healer - Dunno really, best supportclass in the game.. but i don't really see any nerf that they would "deserve", i say keep em, it's one of these classes that get targetted every fight etc.

Skald - Give them ablative chant, but one that only works for themselves. And they should be able to use damageaddchant at the same time.

Runemaster - Give them some sort of good defensive ability to keep them alive abit longer.. maybe higher absorb on buffs?

Spiritmaster - Remove the pet interceptthingie, makes them way too good.. they can qc mezz for defence och MoC and blast/lifedrain, it's nuff.


HIB:

Bard - Good as it is, very very good supportclass but die very fast. Maybe remove that instaamnesiathingie (If it's still there, i don't know that much about bards).

Druid - Good as it is

Warden - Good as it is

Blademaster - Good as it is

Hero - Lower the damage abit on Annihalation (spelling?), otherwise fine.

Champions - Give selfenduranceregen buff or something, otherwise fine.. or atleast make their instas _not_ take endurance when used.

Eldrich - Fine as it is

Enchanter - Move debuffs from manaline to enchantline, make their casterpet do just nuking, no damn snaring.

Mentalist - Doesn't know that much about them, guess they are fine

Nightshade - Fine as it is.. Better RAs then infil and sb, but weaker otherwise.

Ranger - Fine as it is

Animist - Have no idea, seems very gimped in groupcombat, dunno what to do about them.

Valewalker - Redo their weaponstyles and make them alot better, as it is now they don't hit enough.


ALB:

Armsman - Fine as it is

Paladin - Fine as it is, great in 1on1, but takes ages to kill stuff.

Mercenary - Think they are good as it is now, would like to balance them against bms/zerkers if needed.

Reaver - Don't know enough of them really, seems good enough at high levels but i heard their damageadd caps very low at lower levels.

Cleric - Fine as it is

Friar - Very very good in 1on1 due to the selfbuffs but tend to go down pretty fast in groupcombat.. Maybe lower the absorbbuff abit making them abit less "tanky". Removal of IP as RA might be an option aswell.

Infil - Remove dragonfang. or lower the stunduration to 6 seconds or so.. inf have enough points to spec 50 for a 6 second stun anyways.

Minstrel - Maybe remove the ablative? I play a minstrel myself and i feel that the ablative is abit "over the top", since minstrels have kinda easy to run away from fights if it gets nasty anyways (sos, stun, mezz).

Scout - Fine as it is, hit hardest of the archers with bow and kinda suck in melee (slam 'n run).

Cabalist - Dunno, fine as it is i guess, have a nice bob to kite with.

Sorcerer - Too weak as it is now, give them higher absorb or something(?) Otherwise fine.

Theurgist - Just fix resiststuffs and theurgs would be good again.

Wizard - Worst nuker as it is now, maybe give them baseline stun?

Necromancer - Don't really fancy petclasses, but make the pets a little bit tougher or something, needs lotsa testing.. Shouldn't be tough enough to manage a tankbashing but they should be a little bit tougher i guess.




Hmm, kinda long post think i'm right? Or am i wrong? Gifv _good_ arguments and ideas.

 

[Hyuga Hinata]

The necro is actually getting some fixes on Pendragon atm, like the casters CON affecting the pets absorb rate, DEX for castin time etc.

 

[Giljotine]

think there never going to be a all are happy with the char they got mentality in this game so keep dreaming bois and grls

 

[greatred]

Originally posted by Hyuga Hinata
The necro is actually getting some fixes on Pendragon atm, like the casters CON affecting the pets absorb rate, DEX for castin time etc.

I've never played one myself so I could have this wrong, but I think large problems come from when the pet tries to follow the necro. It can have BIG routing problems, leading to it running outside the range of the necro, and it will die (often leaving the necromancer on 5% health and having to stand still for 20 seconds recasting their pet).

 

[old.Hellskor]

"Infil - Remove dragonfang. or lower the stunduration to 6 seconds or so.. inf have enough points to spec 50 for a 6 second stun anyways."

If you bring their damage output down to NS/SB level sure.

Similiar damage output, access to a 6sec stun... sounds fine.

 

[Gewny]

Originally posted by umilard
Savage - Too nasty as it is now, remove determination from this class and other meleeclasses than savages might get groups in mid

Thane - GIVE determination and cheap ras to thanes, would make them very viable for groups.

Berserker - Reduce endurancecost for LAstyles, otherwise fine

Warrior - Fine as it is

Shaman - Fine as it is, great supportclass and very good solo (mastery of kiting)

Hunter - Fine as it is

Shadowblade - Give them Vanish and lower endurancecost abit for LAstyles, otherwise fine

Healer - Dunno really, best supportclass in the game.. but i don't really see any nerf that they would "deserve", i say keep em, it's one of these classes that get targetted every fight etc.

Skald - Give them ablative chant, but one that only works for themselves. And they should be able to use damageaddchant at the same time.

Runemaster - Give them some sort of good defensive ability to keep them alive abit longer.. maybe higher absorb on buffs?

Spiritmaster - Remove the pet interceptthingie, makes them way too good.. they can qc mezz for defence och MoC and blast/lifedrain, it's nuff.
[/B]

Savages : Well not relly, a h2h savage are were they should be, might be a problem with 2h troll optimized savages thou (dont know for sure)

Thane : Mytich has obviously stated that they se Thanes more as lighting caster than melee (and to me this seems right cuz mid alredy has 3 melee classes)

Berserker : Nope not enugh by far, U need to look relly har into berzerk, you need to add good positionals on LA, with some "fancy" effects (maybe a stun or good bleeds, dis or what evever). The lvl 50 LA style is a 3rd in chain and should have comparable or better effect than other lvl 50 styles, read dragonfang) the 60 dmg dd is silly.

warr : needs some "fluff" some fancy stuff

shaman : Fix end regen, he shouldent be forced to use one buffslot for each end regen (eg. give groupe buff). Fix surviabillity in rvr.

Shadowblade : fix LA, (eg no penalty) fix ra´s and give some "reward" for not having 2.5 spec points (anything or give 2.5 specs)

Healer : Pac : fairly fine Mend : well small issuses bot nothing big, AUG : Major fixes needed if this are suppose to be an "possible primary spec"

Skald : More goupe things, why couldent mid get an ablative chant ? or and Af buff chant or something, skalds needs : 1. groupe value (more than speed) 2. survivability (easy fix, length of mezz and stick rate).

Runemaster : all casters (almost) face the same problem. Fix resists, and survivability (mytich seems to work for that other classes might get better at protecting them witch seems fine by me) Fix interupts. Sup spec : Lower the powerdrain from pbt.(at high lvls of pbt)

Spiritmaster : Hell no (sorry for the language ) that intercept are the only thing the sm´s pet do that make any real differance. And dont take ras as a class balancing issue Moc aint cheap and they shouldent need it to at all work...

 

[faderullan]

I agree with Gewny. Most mid classes need love and savage are balanced.

 

[uma_thurman]

Originally posted by old.Hellskor
"Infil - Remove dragonfang. or lower the stunduration to 6 seconds or so.. inf have enough points to spec 50 for a 6 second stun anyways."

If you bring their damage output down to NS/SB level sure.

Similiar damage output, access to a 6sec stun... sounds fine.

Err no. SBs have more hps than infs, so similar damage would mean inf < SBs. Infs need something to make up for less hps, which is why they get 2.5 and so allowing them to do a little more damage.

A 6 second stun would have to be at a far lower spec than 50 thrust if they did that. Maybe 34 as diamondback (5s stun) is 29 pierce.

 

[Cush]

Originally posted by faderullan
I agree with Gewny. Most mid classes need love and savage are balanced.

Who hit Fadeh in the head with a shovel?

 

[uma_thurman]

Re: Re: Nerf what, boost what, why, and how?

Originally posted by Gewny
Savages : Well not relly, a h2h savage are were they should be, might be a problem with 2h troll optimized savages thou (dont know for sure)

Berserker : Nope not enugh by far, U need to look relly har into berzerk, you need to add good positionals on LA, with some "fancy" effects (maybe a stun or good bleeds, dis or what evever). The lvl 50 LA style is a 3rd in chain and should have comparable or better effect than other lvl 50 styles, read dragonfang) the 60 dmg dd is silly.

shaman : Fix end regen, he shouldent be forced to use one buffslot for each end regen (eg. give groupe buff). Fix surviabillity in rvr.

Shadowblade : fix LA, (eg no penalty) fix ra´s and give some "reward" for not having 2.5 spec points (anything or give 2.5 specs)

Skald : More goupe things, why couldent mid get an ablative chant ? or and Af buff chant or something, skalds needs : 1. groupe value (more than speed) 2. survivability (easy fix, length of mezz and stick rate).

Spiritmaster : Hell no (sorry for the language ) that intercept are the only thing the sm´s pet do that make any real differance. And dont take ras as a class balancing issue Moc aint cheap and they shouldent need it to at all work...

Savages: class them as hybrids. They are good enough without cheap RAs which should go to pure non-casting/shouting tanks like warriors only. So make determination more expensive, purge too.

LA: agree that positional styles need looking at.

Shammies: make end regen a chant

SBs: they get more hps, but give them vanish.

Skald: not ablative no - that's unique to alb, just as insta-aoe stun is unique to mid.

SMs: pet intercept makes them akin to BDs, where pet makes a huge difference to survivability. Tone down the intercept rate. Personally I don't see why all pet classes can't have this intercept ability, after all anything that helps casters at the moment is good. Beef up darkness line to avoid SMs all speccing suppression.

 

[pudzy]

Shadowblade - Give them Vanish and lower endurancecost abit for LAstyles, otherwise fine

Everything you said I can more or less agree with except this, SB's are the most pathetic stealth class damage wise now most have quit, I fully SC'd my sb, respeccing to critblade, the only decent viable spec for me at the time, and it's totaly bollocks. Any sane person who has played an SB or probably againts one knows that the only reason they're still winning fights is due to buffs.

 

[uma_thurman]

Originally posted by umilard
Friar - Very very good in 1on1 due to the selfbuffs but tend to go down pretty fast in groupcombat.. Maybe lower the absorbbuff abit making them abit less "tanky". Removal of IP as RA might be an option aswell.

Minstrel - Maybe remove the ablative? I play a minstrel myself and i feel that the ablative is abit "over the top", since minstrels have kinda easy to run away from fights if it gets nasty anyways (sos, stun, mezz).

Theurgist - Just fix resiststuffs and theurgs would be good again.

Wizard - Worst nuker as it is now, maybe give them baseline stun?

Friar - no way remove IP or tone down absorb buff. They do not benefit feom buffs in the same was that other clases do, so yes 1 on 1 friars beat up unbuffed classes, but against buffed classes it's not one-sided. They are supposed to be a tanking healer so they're fine. Personally I would beef up Reflex Attack.

Minstrel - remove ablative and micers would hardly get xp grps for a kickoff. Fine as they are.

Theurgs - *cough* earth theurg *cough*. Even ice line is a little gimpy. Not all theurgs are air spec and the other lines need serious examination. Even air spec mezz needs range increased.

Wizard - fire wiz is an emain cow unless they get VP. Fixing resists will help here.

 

[uma_thurman]

Re: Re: Nerf what, boost what, why, and how?

Originally posted by pudzy
I fully SC'd my sb, respeccing to critblade, the only decent viable spec for me at the time, and it's totaly bollocks.

Try lining up PA. Works for others

 

[Hyuga Hinata]

Originally posted by uma_thurman
Err no. SBs have more hps than infs, so similar damage would mean inf < SBs. Infs need something to make up for less hps, which is why they get 2.5 and so allowing them to do a little more damage.

Did you get dropped on the head as a baby?
I fail to see how 2.5 spec points which allow an infil to spec 50 weapon and keep every other spec line they need at a viable level as a way to balance the fact that SB's get 70 more hps than them.

Edit: Oh and 50 weaponspec = more weaponskill = less chance for opponent to evade/block/parry so you get an advantage there aswell. In addition to the fact that you can debuff the SB's weaponskill to hell and back further increasing your chances.

 

[hangianix]

Re: Re: Nerf what, boost what, why, and how?

Originally posted by Gewny
AUG : Major fixes needed if this are suppose to be an "possible primary spec"

Like all healer class 3rd line.

 

[Hyuga Hinata]

Re: Re: Re: Nerf what, boost what, why, and how?

Originally posted by hangianix
Like all healer class 3rd line.

Albion can survive with no smite clerics, Hibernia can survive without nature druids, howere Midgard has a big disadvantage when we're missing 3 resist buffs(one of which happens to be body resist)

Edit: Don't get me wrong tho, I agree that smite and nature could use som help.

 

[Hargh]

Let SBs spec in H2H weapons.

 

[hangianix]

Impossible to solve the problem without moving the resists to other class. Earlier the solution was that mid grp tried to run with 2 healers when most of the alb and hib grp with 1 healer.

 

[old.Hellskor]

Originally posted by uma_thurman
Err no. SBs have more hps than infs, so similar damage would mean inf < SBs. Infs need something to make up for less hps, which is why they get 2.5 and so allowing them to do a little more damage.

A 6 second stun would have to be at a far lower spec than 50 thrust if they did that. Maybe 34 as diamondback (5s stun) is 29 pierce.

´
no Str/Dex weapons

Str/Con debuff available

maybe 100HPs more (if at all)


How about we move the stun to let's say 39DW ? and make it a 2nd in a chain.

If an infiltrators offhand hits as hard as a SBs Mainhand and offhand combined, something is wrong ... and not only a 9s stun.

 

[zapzap]

ALB:

Armsman - Fine as it is

Paladin - Fine as it is, great in 1on1, but takes ages to kill stuff. (takes ages to kill also so FINE)

Mercenary - Think they are good as it is now, would like to balance them against bms/zerkers if needed. ( give them studded)

Reaver - Don't know enough of them really, seems good enough at high levels but i heard their damageadd caps very low at lower levels.

Cleric - Fine as it is ( move cure mess from mincer to cleric )

Friar - Very very good in 1on1 due to the selfbuffs but tend to go down pretty fast in groupcombat.. Maybe lower the absorbbuff abit making them abit less "tanky". Removal of IP as RA might be an option aswell. (1v1 doesnt matter much when no stealth)

Infil - Remove dragonfang. or lower the stunduration to 6 seconds or so.. inf have enough points to spec 50 for a 6 second stun anyways. ( 6 sec stun second in chain )

Minstrel - Maybe remove the ablative? I play a minstrel myself and i feel that the ablative is abit "over the top", since minstrels have kinda easy to run away from fights if it gets nasty anyways (sos, stun, mezz). ( move CM to cleric remove clim walls and make sos work only on group not self like BOL)

Scout - Fine as it is, hit hardest of the archers with bow and kinda suck in melee (slam 'n run).

Cabalist - Dunno, fine as it is i guess, have a nice bob to kite with.
Fix resist and they fine

Sorcerer - Too weak as it is now, give them higher absorb or something(?) Otherwise fine.

Theurgist - Just fix resiststuffs and theurgs would be good again.

Wizard - Worst nuker as it is now, maybe give them baseline stun?

Necromancer - Don't really fancy petclasses, but make the pets a little bit tougher or something, needs lotsa testing.. Shouldn't be tough enough to manage a tankbashing but they should be a little bit tougher i guess ( give them a pet cure mess )

HIB:

Bard - Good as it is, very very good supportclass but die very fast. Maybe remove that instaamnesiathingie (If it's still there, i don't know that much about bards). LUL is fine but fix end song so every fly dont interrupt it

Druid - Good as it is

Warden - Good as it is

Blademaster - Good as it is

Hero - Lower the damage abit on Annihalation (spelling?), otherwise fine. ( hard to get of leave it )

Champions - Give selfenduranceregen buff or something, otherwise fine.. or atleast make their instas _not_ take endurance when used.

Eldrich - Fine as it is

Enchanter - Move debuffs from manaline to enchantline, make their casterpet do just nuking, no damn snaring.( fix interupting)

Mentalist - Doesn't know that much about them, guess they are fine ( they sux big time maybe a PBT on them would help )

Nightshade - Fine as it is.. Better RAs then infil and sb, but weaker otherwise.

Ranger - Fine as it is

Animist - Have no idea, seems very gimped in groupcombat, dunno what to do about them. ( needs a tweak not sure how tho)

Valewalker - Redo their weaponstyles and make them alot better, as it is now they don't hit enough.

MID:

Bonedancer - Insane as it is now, change the insta lifedrain to a insta dd instead, a caster shouldn't be able to outmelee meleeclasses.. Bonedancers would still be very viable as a class due to the casting lifedrain and dd, would be a magician that makes kinda good damage and is very hard to interrupt and has kinda good defence still with healing pets. (not bad idear )

Savage - Too nasty as it is now, remove determination from this class and other meleeclasses than savages might get groups in mid ( fix so self haste + clerity dont stack, maybe remove dps and give skald damage add some range remove DET u have an other dead class special if thanes get it)

Thane - GIVE determination and cheap ras to thanes, would make them very viable for groups. ( Biggest problem in MID make a chapter alone for them)

Berserker - Reduce endurancecost for LAstyles, otherwise fine
( give chain maybe and a lvl 50 style with damage in )

Warrior - Fine as it is
Coz thane dont have DET

Shaman - Fine as it is, great supportclass and very good solo (mastery of kiting) ( Cant buff ½ a group stop end counting as a con)

Hunter - Fine as it is ( maybe 1h weapon and a shield )

Shadowblade - Give them Vanish and lower endurancecost abit for LAstyles, otherwise fine ( not fine compared to NS & infil, but compared to rest of classes yes, give them thrust weapon)

Healer - Dunno really, best supportclass in the game.. but i don't really see any nerf that they would "deserve", i say keep em, it's one of these classes that get targetted every fight etc.

Skald - Give them ablative chant, but one that only works for themselves. And they should be able to use damageaddchant at the same time. (1500 range on damage add)

Runemaster - Give them some sort of good defensive ability to keep them alive abit longer.. maybe higher absorb on buffs?

Spiritmaster - Remove the pet interceptthingie, makes them way too good.. they can qc mezz for defence och MoC and blast/lifedrain, it's nuff.

 

[scarffs]

Hmm the report is nice, especially when zapsi added some stuff.

But balance is an utopia, unless you make all three realms identical.
And the greatest problem is the big ras at the moment. Thats not balanced.The rest is more or less fine.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

umilard, I won't comment on the other things, but completely disagree about your thoughts on SMs.

You obviously don't play the class at all and have just looked at a list of what the class can do or have been on the receiving end of it at times. I don't mean this as a flame, but on this I feel quite strongly, having played as nerfed for an extremely long time with my Dark SM.

The pet intercept is the first thing that has happened to my char that has allowed me to be reasonably viable in RvR again and there are still aspects of Dark SMs that need fixing.

 

[scarffs]

Re: Re: Nerf what, boost what, why, and how?

Originally posted by uma_thurman
Friar - no way remove IP or tone down absorb buff. They do not benefit feom buffs in the same was that other clases do, so yes 1 on 1 friars beat up unbuffed classes, but against buffed classes it's not one-sided. They are supposed to be a tanking healer so they're fine. Personally I would beef up Reflex Attack.

Minstrel - remove ablative and micers would hardly get xp grps for a kickoff. Fine as they are.

Theurgs - *cough* earth theurg *cough*. Even ice line is a little gimpy. Not all theurgs are air spec and the other lines need serious examination. Even air spec mezz needs range increased.

Wizard - fire wiz is an emain cow unless they get VP. Fixing resists will help here.

Uma you're an alb apparently, but not so objective as the original poster.

 

[twistedmind]

Originally posted by uma_thurman
Err no. SBs have more hps than infs, so similar damage would mean inf < SBs. Infs need something to make up for less hps, which is why they get 2.5 and so allowing them to do a little more damage.

A 6 second stun would have to be at a far lower spec than 50 thrust if they did that. Maybe 34 as diamondback (5s stun) is 29 pierce.

is it me or is this wrong. i have seen the diamondback style on ns are at 25 pierce. i might be wrong but i might be right also.

 

[fyric]

overpowered classes imo:

midgard:

Savages, as of now, the by far most overpowered class in game, specced h2h its the most damaging melee class in the game, alongside having the best defence in game(50% advanced evade, 50% melee resistances etc).

possible solution: hybrid dmg table, removal of determination cheap ip etc, standard evade instead of advanced.

shaman: pbae disease should be removed imo, seems about the only thing tho

albion:

infiltrator, 2.5 pts a level, tremendous bonus, along with dragonfang

possible solution: remove the stun effect from dragonfang and upgrade the damage abit, 2.2 pts a level,

hibernia:

hero:
seems abit odd that the caster realm have the 2/3rd best melee class in game, both spear heroes and lw heroes does a very high amount of damage, along with having slam, along with moose makes em very hard to kill as well, takes awhile to kill 2 x 3xxxx hp thats hitting your support for 500 a hit

possible solution: lowering of moose hp increase, lower damage on annihilation and dragon talon/cuchulans revenge combo.


underpowered classes:

midgard:

thane: too low dmg for being a melee'er from the melee realm.

bonedancer: while superior when solo they are about as useless as all other casters in group vs group combats.

runemaster: caster(obvious)

spiritmaster: caster(obvious)


albion:

armsman: seems the damage from this class just isn't good enough


all casters exept sorc thats needed in groups.


hibernia:

animist: seems useless, not quite sure, haven't actually seen many of em around.

eldritchcaster)

mentalistcaster)


enchanter seems balanced imo, as the only damage caster, all casters should be able to do this kinda damage. its not for nothing they stand in robe and wielding a staff yelling hit me, hit me.

 

[old.ivan]

[Utopia]

"Mythic makes buffs ranged from the buffer to the buffed <about 4000 should be fine>, thus mostly covering the buffbot problem and Then proceeds to balance the classes "

[/Utopia]

PS: just an idea

 

[uma_thurman]

Originally posted by Hyuga Hinata
Did you get dropped on the head as a baby?

QQ

SBs had it good for 18 months. Deal with it.

My point was in infil and SBs did similar damage then SBs would win for having superior hps. Infs need the extra weaponskill to make up for less hp.

You missed my point. Try engaging your brain before posting.

 

[zapzap]

Thanes !

Give them DET and cheap RA some say.
Then who would group a warrior savage berserker ?
group of 3 healers shammy 3 thanes skald then ?

Thane with DET would be the uber TANK with instean DD, DD , aoe damage,pb damage, dps self, slam and chain.

Not sure how long any caster would survive with 3 assisting thanes cant even outrun them.
Hib PBAE group would suffer big time if thane got cheap RAs thanes with EM 2 then standing in pbae interupting every hib minus the Hero while they could hit away. would need all Ras rdy to counter that.

Cheaper RAs for thane maybe but DET would make them uber, special big troll thanes like kephan would bring out the WIIINE like never b4.
I hope they look at styles and give thane a purpose to spec weapon to 50 like champs.

Zapsi

 

[uma_thurman]

Originally posted by old.Hellskor
´
no Str/Dex weapons

Str/Con debuff available

maybe 100HPs more (if at all)


How about we move the stun to let's say 39DW ? and make it a 2nd in a chain.

If an infiltrators offhand hits as hard as a SBs Mainhand and offhand combined, something is wrong ... and not only a 9s stun.

In another thread I said give SBs vanish, thrust weapons and allow dex/qui debuff poisons. That's my answer.

SBs would have a real edge then with slash and thrust weapons available as they could switch depending on target armour. It would make a nice addition to them, but I guess other tanks would weapon switch too. Just a thought. Comments?

Another thought is if SBs get str/con debuffed they could switch to a thruster for higher WS. Maybe it would be overpowered?

 

[umilard]

Zapsi, warriors still do higher damage than thanes, right? and have more defence.. And savages would still be great without determination, they can still /assist and stuff, only that you would now be able to stop them for more than 2 seconds

I say give them determination, but keep purge/ip at high cost.