Nerf Stealthers!!

[eynar_eoo]

NERF Derric!

 

[Tesla Monkor]

''assasin classes EARN see hidden in a way. They _are_ the hardest class to level, have the most problems getting groups so i do think they deserve that little extra.''

Well, earned or not, getting a carte blanche at ignoring another class's primary form of defence is a wee bit overpowered. Hunter's aren't that easy to level, either. (They're actually a lot harder to level than assassins, since you're perpetually broke and underequiped since you have to buy arrows all the time. Unless you have a large amount of cash, it's a pain).

Where's our See Hidden, then?

 

[SilverHood]

The real people getting battered by sea hidden is the non-assasin stealthers

Seeing as emain is just one big field of assasins, you might as well play a skald or thane rather than a hunter

 

[Brannor McThife]

Originally posted by Tesla Monkor
(They're actually a lot harder to level than assassins, since you're perpetually broke and underequiped since you have to buy arrows all the time. Unless you have a large amount of cash, it's a pain).

Excuse me? Have you ever played an envenom assassin? The you wouldn't even bring cost into this. At present, I can use up to 25 silver's worth of poisons in ONE fight against an even-con mob. I know the best bolts I can buy cost me roughly 24s for 20 bolts, not quite sure about the arrows, but hell, please, think a little before you start to say that your choice of path costs you more. Ours can cost just as much.

-G

 

[ivan_tribbiani]

Originally posted by Brannor McThife

Excuse me? Have you ever played an envenom assassin? The you wouldn't even bring cost into this. At present, I can use up to 25 silver's worth of poisons in ONE fight against an even-con mob. I know the best bolts I can buy cost me roughly 24s for 20 bolts, not quite sure about the arrows, but hell, please, think a little before you start to say that your choice of path costs you more. Ours can cost just as much.

-G

Yeah but compare the price of decent arrow to price of poison.... and the amount of the arrows you use per mob. about one good arrow for crit then 3 regular decent arrows to finish off the fight <thats the case with scouts anyhow>, Now if im 1vs1 with a blue mob i dont use poisons, if its a yellow con however i use 2xDOT <although i know they arent stackable, that untimely resist can mean death to you> , 2Xdesease and a strength debuff. That at envenom around 25 comes to a lot of money long term but not nearly as much as the arrows i think.
Besides does anyone really use poisons in group fights ? I dont, unless its an orange con and my poison will actually mean something in the fight, while scouts have to resort to bow to be effective.

My two pence

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by ivan_tribbiani


Yeah but compare the price of decent arrow to price of poison.... and the amount of the arrows you use per mob. about one good arrow for crit then 3 regular decent arrows to finish off the fight <thats the case with scouts anyhow>, Now if im 1vs1 with a blue mob i dont use poisons, if its a yellow con however i use 2xDOT <although i know they arent stackable, that untimely resist can mean death to you> , 2Xdesease and a strength debuff. That at envenom around 25 comes to a lot of money long term but not nearly as much as the arrows i think.
Besides does anyone really use poisons in group fights ? I dont, unless its an orange con and my poison will actually mean something in the fight, while scouts have to resort to bow to be effective.

My two pence

He said he can use upto 25s worth of poison _in one fight_.
You're not going to be using 20 footed flight broadheads in the one fight....

Edit: I have no idea how much poisons cost... just going on what Brannor had posted here

 

[ivan_tribbiani]

Originally posted by Fingoniel



He said he can use upto 25s worth of poison _in one fight_.
You're not going to be using 20 footed flight broadheads in the one fight....

Edit: I have no idea how much poisons cost... just going on what Brannor had posted here

25s maybe at higher level than me i think i spent less, but think about it would any sane person solo post 35 ? And as i said before while in groups fighting high con mobs poisons are virtually useless <besides most times they go down to fast for your poison to make any difference>

 

[Brannor McThife]

Originally posted by ivan_tribbiani
25s maybe at higher level than me i think i spent less, but think about it would any sane person solo post 35 ? And as i said before while in groups fighting high con mobs poisons are virtually useless <besides most times they go down to fast for your poison to make any difference>

L35 Major Lethal poison. 62s +- for 10 vials
L37 Major enervating posion. 72s +- for 10 vials

Soloing even con yellows can cost me 4 major lethals and an envervating. Normally I just use 2 major lethals and one major enervating.

As for higher level mobs, hello? Poisons are life savers against them. I've managed to pull aggro off numerous near-death tanks/scouts/casters by using my DOT posions. And that against L50+ purple con mobs. Poisons are FAR from useless against high-con mobs. 2 infils hitting a purple mob with Lethal, enervating, disease, etc. makes the fight a LOT easier.

Sorry, I value my poisons a lot, they've saved me in PvE and PvP many times. And restocking the few hundred vials I carry costs roughly 40 gold at a time.

-G

 

[ivan_tribbiani]

Like i said my envenom is only 25 so its hard to judge ....and i havent played for a while but whenever i tried to use poison on anything higher than orange i got 60-80% resist so i still think its a waste of money in that sense. I too value my poisons and i never leave without 200 vials of each, but with envenom 25 its not too expensive <when compares to the material gains recieved from the hunt>.

But yeah then if 62 and 72 silver approx / 5 = about 25+-3

Expensive .... besides Assassins are way harder to level due to class specs not to costs involved as it is... 1-20 Scouts can buy XXXheavy damage and range arrows from crafters and level very easily or am i wrong in that perspective.


And G i usually go for Taunt-Taunt-Detaunt on mobs so right from the start i get hit at least twice before the tanks take over <although i get high chance to evade + occasional pbt to cover up>

 

[Flimgoblin]

Can you do your perforate artery etc. when the monster is in combat?

Main tank uses taunt, then the assassin backstabs... stops the infil getting smeared across the pavement, no?

 

[ivan_tribbiani]

Originally posted by Fingoniel
Can you do your perforate artery etc. when the monster is in combat?

Main tank uses taunt, then the assassin backstabs... stops the infil getting smeared across the pavement, no?

Well that depends on who you got in the group..... with pbt/extra heals/paladin PA+CD is viable. Thus its PA-CD-Tranquil

 

[Flimgoblin]

Was meaning after it's been hit already... or do you get similar things to bolts being blocked?

(this is assuming your tanks can position the monster properly so you can get at its back/face or whatever you need )

 

[ivan_tribbiani]

Originally posted by Fingoniel
Was meaning after it's been hit already... or do you get similar things to bolts being blocked?

(this is assuming your tanks can position the monster properly so you can get at its back/face or whatever you need )

Thats the main problem Assassins job is to act according to situation, you dont usually ask fighters to position it in such and such way, usually you arrive <if you arent the first to PA> after second round, unless your fighters are complete numpties and run further away.

As for getting PAs in .... i never noticed a single block to be honest its just that i never crit crit when i do my PA while the monster is meleed. I havent been paying attention to that to be honest because its common to miss PA on a high con mob.

 

[Flimgoblin]

OK, cool just wondering what strategies to use when we've got infils in the group

How to let them do lots of damage...

 

[Brannor McThife]

Hell, the number of tanks I'd like to strangle is countless. They just run at the mob and hit it, causing the mob to do a 180...means a nice little stealth jog for me. Yes, the tanks should hit it first, in my view (and I play a tank in Midgard) a tank should hit the mob with 3 taunts straight off, and maybe keep it up just to hold aggro. In Malmohus, that's all I did, taunt, and save a little endurance to taunt a mob off a healer/caster <---- VERY NB! Tanks, don't waste all your endurance doing combo moves, save some for pure taunting when needed.

And I'm sorry, my view, if a paladin is in a group, he should heal chant. He can take far more hits, and survive more aggro than a healer who can actually heal him for more. When a cleric dies, you lose all the buffs. Paladins/armsmen must learn to die to save the cleric. The number of times I've watched clerics die while 3/4 tanks are left standing disgusts me. I had one rule when I played in Midgard, I die first.

Also, in my view, PA/CD does pure damage, they are non-taunt moves. So yes, if the infil hits first he'll draw aggro. If your tanks want to "rush" the mob. Rather pull it lightly, and then stand your ground and hit early, and if it flips 180, then rotate quickly to save your infils some time.

And no, PA isn't affected by in-combat-already. If you read my solo advice to infils somewhere in the Prydwen section, you'll see that I often PA/CD, run away, stealth, PA/CD again. Although the second stun from the second CD is 50% shorter.

I can sometimes be quite picky about targets. I've sometimes not even touched a mob because the tanks all encircle it, making it whirl around the whole time. I then just go sit and regen endurance.

<shrugs>

-G

 

[Danya]

Tanks all over a mob annoys me as I like to use the pierce style, which is use from behind. If the mob is spinning like a top it;s quite hard to do that.

Also any paladin that's in a group without running healchant should be taken out and beaten (unless there is another pala running heal of course). They are a tank, they should take the bloody aggro. I've had tanks say "I don't like to get hit" as a reason for not running it. WTF? They think the healer being beaten bloody is better?

 

[ivan_tribbiani]

Originally posted by Brannor McThife
Hell, the number of tanks I'd like to strangle is countless. They just run at the mob and hit it, causing the mob to do a 180...means a nice little stealth jog for me. Yes, the tanks should hit it first, in my view (and I play a tank in Midgard) a tank should hit the mob with 3 taunts straight off, and maybe keep it up just to hold aggro. In Malmohus, that's all I did, taunt, and save a little endurance to taunt a mob off a healer/caster <---- VERY NB! Tanks, don't waste all your endurance doing combo moves, save some for pure taunting when needed.

edit: i wish more tanks would become like that and not shout we ran out of end so couldnt save the heals.

And I'm sorry, my view, if a paladin is in a group, he should heal chant. He can take far more hits, and survive more aggro than a healer who can actually heal him for more. When a cleric dies, you lose all the buffs. Paladins/armsmen must learn to die to save the cleric. The number of times I've watched clerics die while 3/4 tanks are left standing disgusts me. I had one rule when I played in Midgard, I die first.

edit: If people remember the way i played, then they can say that i die before any caster goes down due to the fact that some tanks are quite prone to not keeping the aggro, and some palis who forget to heal chant. In really bad scenarios i die, then down goes the healer then down goes the offensive caster then the tanks run away <however some of them are persistent and will fight it to the bone >

Also, in my view, PA/CD does pure damage, they are non-taunt moves. So yes, if the infil hits first he'll draw aggro. If your tanks want to "rush" the mob. Rather pull it lightly, and then stand your ground and hit early, and if it flips 180, then rotate quickly to save your infils some time.

edit: yup but most of time syou endup doing more damage than any tank so you attract it anyhow, to detaunt use Tranquil

And no, PA isn't affected by in-combat-already. If you read my solo advice to infils somewhere in the Prydwen section, you'll see that I often PA/CD, run away, stealth, PA/CD again. Although the second stun from the second CD is 50% shorter.

edit: Only tried it with epic quests PA-CD with desease +dot poison and run off, regen then come back.

I can sometimes be quite picky about targets. I've sometimes not even touched a mob because the tanks all encircle it, making it whirl around the whole time. I then just go sit and regen endurance.
edit: tell meh about it, but less of that in Alb i think.
<shrugs>

-G

 

[Flimgoblin]

I've been known to smack the incoming pygmy... sprint after the one that's on the sorc... notice another one that didn't get mezzed and is beating on the cleric, whack that...

and then proceed to die horribly, wondering why none of the other tanks managed to get aggro off of me...

I've since learned to let someone _else_ take the main incoming monster

 

[Gef]

Originally posted by Dannyn
Also any paladin that's in a group without running healchant should be taken out and beaten (unless there is another pala running heal of course). They are a tank, they should take the bloody aggro. I've had tanks say "I don't like to get hit" as a reason for not running it. WTF? They think the healer being beaten bloody is better?

I hate that, taunt styles do the job just as effectively (unless the pally is a complete spaz) and then you can run a useful chant like the AF one that actually prevents the healer from having to heal you as often! Or the damage one which gives all your group a nice buff that enables you to kill faster ..

Weigh it up, okay so if taunt aint working then flip heal on and off .. usually does the trick. But a pally running heal chant the whole time isnt being half as useful as he could be.

 

[Brannor McThife]

I think part of what gives assassins in general a "bad name" is that they "die too quick", well, let's face it folks, good infiltrators are tactically aware. They seem to be a lot calmer in fights that most people.

As a tank, once full melee is underway, if you see a mob going for a healer/caster, SCREW THE ONE YOU'RE HITTING AND GO FOR IT. I don't care if you hold aggro for one already, get that second one too. If you have PBT and someone that can cast confusion on it, then great, but once you've hit it and drawn aggro (supposing you've used taunt and not done more than 20% damage to it) go back to the first, allowing the mezzer to have a fair chance at mezzing it. Also, try not to have two mobs hitting you from opposite sides, rather rotate them to hit you from the same side, thereby allowing you the chance to block/parry/etc. Best way to do this is to take a step or two directly backwards (obviously not off a cliff and into spawn area. ).

Tanks should be smart. Healers will heal, you must hold aggro. Hell, Glauthrong tanked 3 purple essence shredders once to allow for a remezz. Taunt - switch target - taunt - switch target - taunt - sheath weapon while mezzed cast. Hit the one that resisted or pick one if they all got mezzed. Have ONE person as "MA", and one as Peeler. Doesn't Albion know these things?



-G

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by Gef


I hate that, taunt styles do the job just as effectively (unless the pally is a complete spaz) and then you can run a useful chant like the AF one that actually prevents the healer from having to heal you as often! Or the damage one which gives all your group a nice buff that enables you to kill faster ..

Weigh it up, okay so if taunt aint working then flip heal on and off .. usually does the trick. But a pally running heal chant the whole time isnt being half as useful as he could be.

Weigh it up like this, when you have 3-4 inc, the pala can taunt 1, heal chant will aggro all of them at once, and hold aggro even through a failed mez or two, that is more useful than +150 af IMO. Also if the taunt misses, then you're fucked, healchant doesn't miss. When it comes down to it, in a balanced group the tanks aren't there for damage, they are there to hold aggro while the casters kill the mobs.

An interesting thing to note... in guild groups I never see AF chant on unless we have a lot of paladins. The main tank _always_ runs heal. The secondary tank (if pala) runs damage, armour comes third. Taunt just can't compare to healchant.

 

[Brannor McThife]

Originally posted by Dannyn
When it comes down to it, in a balanced group the tanks aren't there for damage, they are there to hold aggro while the casters kill the mobs.

Hell yeah!

I play a warrior, and this is the first and most important lesson you need to learn. For me, it's not about doing the most damage, just drawing the most aggro. You don't know what an advantage you paladins have over our like tanks when it comes holding aggro.

-G

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by Brannor McThife

Hell yeah!

I play a warrior, and this is the first and most important lesson you need to learn. For me, it's not about doing the most damage, just drawing the most aggro. You don't know what an advantage you paladins have over our like tanks when it comes holding aggro.

-G

Oh I do... palas are my favourite tanks

 

[Flimgoblin]

Unfortunately they've got less hp than an armsman... and a lot of paladins go two handed

So they're quite often not the best at surviving if something goes wrong (healer afk etc.)

A sword and board paladin is superb in the keeping aggro, and good at the amount of damage taken. Not as much longevity as an armsman though. That said... add in healchant healing ... the sword and shield paladin is probably the best main tank

They'll take the same mana to keep alive as an armsman, but can die in one or two less hits if not attended to. Their aggro keeping is ten times better

Mercs can tank a little.. same hp as armsmen but take more damage so will last about the same as a paladin. (e.g. having 1000 hp instead of 800 hp, but taking 100 damage a hit instead of 80 damage a hit - 10 hits to kill)
However the clerics will burn more mana (more hp to heal).

We do lots of damage though which is nice.

 

[Brannor McThife]

I've actually considerred making a paladin that majors in defense, high shield, high chant, etc. With medium weapon skill.

-G

 

[Flimgoblin]

Got one in our guild, Sunis.
He kicks arse in a group Decidedly unkillable

Not sure how he fares solo...

Think he needs to taunt more... were two of us in barrows, him twisting chants... the valor damage add let me take aggro off of him just using the merc rear positional styles (ok so they're sick damaging styles )

 

[Tesla Monkor]

FFB arrows are 76s for 20, so each time you release you loose 3.8s. that ain't cheap either.

However, we're getting a bit off-topic here. I was just pointing out that 'having such a damn hard time to level' is hardly a reason to screw over another class who is no easier to level.

The whole point is moot, anyway. We're gonna get screwed and there's nothing we can do about it. Mythic dictates and we are always behind in patches.

Hold on for two patches or give up and play an alt for the duration. :/

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by Tesla Monkor
Hold on for two patches or give up and play an alt for the duration. :/

I'll just stick the healer and go afk for a few patches till mythic decides to make my class useful as something other than a drum-bot.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by censi
Ah Sickofit..... reassurring to see your still a twat..
Consistency is the key.

Dear Lord! CENSI AER TEH FUNNY!!1 again!

Why don't you go stab yourself in the face or do something similarily useful?

Shall I heat up Paintshop?

 

[old.Revz]

Bah and double bah. I'm sure sickofit../Brannor will love me for going into arrogance mode but it is a little saddening to see people of a reasonably high level still not understanding things about the way classes in their realm work.

First off because heals are number based rather than percentage based the fact that one paladin could have 1800 HP versus one armsman having 2300 HP is irrelevant in any fight where they won't get one shotted. When you take 50k damage over the course of combat against one mob the difference in max HP is just the amount of accuracy you have to play with when it comes to healing. If you need the extra leeway those 500 HP gives you then the healers are at fault.

As fingoniel said a sword/shield paladin is this realms best main tank without question. If you want a decent bit of proof then I would encourage you to try and kill Mouth with one group of 8. If you have a s/s paladin you will likely do it without much trouble, if not then you will struggle.

My idea of the perfect paladin (which is what I would make should I ever roll up an alt) would have 50 shield, 45 chants, 29 slash and 21 parry