Need or Greed?

[Missythang]

i mean i even helped some dude get Belt of sun today and kalares necky.. lvl 41 so figured he could use the help..

Elewyth did indeed assist, although it wasn't entirely smooth-sailing, since my guildie (there were 2 of us playing - 41 and 44) originally asked to group with Elewyth for the encounter after having received the key earlier that night and was unable to get any help initially. However, I think persistence was built into my genes

Of course, I understand that people often use alts to obtain artis, but I did feel it was a bit much when later, after having given assistance and great tips, Ele complained at my guildie for getting the belt. TBH, it left a rather sour feeling in the air, especially coming from somone who has obviously been able to solo it and who had earlier obtained the belt at my guildmate's expense. However, I'm not one to turn down any source of good information and/or assistance and when someone's done the encounter several times and is willing to assist, things go a lot more smoothly (well - almost - couldn't get to insta in time ). There's always a lotto option at the end of the day if there are disputes.

Kalares was ridiculously easy (and much fun for me) - and thanks again for helping with the aggro, Elewyth. Admittedly we had some reservations, given the earlier encounter but it was good to have had the back-up and the offer of assistance freely given.

My attitude to artis and scrolls is flexible - it's good to have people out there who know what they're doing but not great if they don't pass that knowledge on or get greedy about things. I agree with the theme of the original posting but also have to recognise the power of market forces and I'm happy enough to live with it, simply because I'll work around it.

It would be nice if more people out there were prepared to lend assistance and be more pragmatic about the whole thing. I'd be happy enough to group and at least get the encounter credit and the valuable experience of techniques and approaches which work. If I can afford the arti at a CM, fair enough - if not, I'll have some idea how to get it done for myself - and I'm happier to level the arti while I'm exping.

Personally, I'll donate to my guild or to friends before I sell anything, but that's just the way I like to do things and I'm finding more often in this game that what goes around comes around.

 

[Arnor]

lol marc..; calling ppl names again...

you are that platewearer running around in lime green raggs, aren't you.?
reflction of RL

i remember Aussie as beeing one of the major Sidi raid leaders..till jealous ppl, like you... which is dripping from ur decaying corpse...contiuously got on his case for demanding some things since no one ever showed a bit off respect..


now pls, marc piss off from the forum..once and forever..

i may be a troll, but you are what us Belgians call a "DROL"

you smell

stealing != demanding (even if afaik it was his brother who did the deed, aussie was just bodyguarding him)

no, you arent a troll, you are the single biggest asslicker ive seen in a while. Explains why aussie's been walking funny lately though ^^

 

[Z^^]

Thanks for being friendly first of all, rarely see that anymore, cheers to you mate

Yeah your right, i work everyday, even weekends, so i rarely have time to "farm" the artifacts i need. And ive been told that you are really gimped if you dont have ToA armor

I really dont need any help, i have lots of friends, and my guild mates are great Thanks for the offer. It's just that everytime we go to check for the artis, they are always camped. And most of the time by the same people from the same guilds. Its sad that they made it like this, i mean 40hour respawn on an item is a bit to much. Thats around 1k users play everyday, which means for everyone to get the arti would take about a year.

Im sure this has no effect on the farmers, but if you do read this, and want to help out it would be very appriciated.
This is my main char btw, i dont have alts, so i only need 1 of each arti, i dont care for money, i just want to finish the template so i can hit the RvR.

can still be gimped with the perfect template

 

[judas]

need=greed. greed=need. imo.

 

[Erulin]

Nothin personal sweetie, what's in a name... but seeing the thread "Need or Greed" with the last post made by Judas just cracked me up

ROFL

Erulin the Bloody

 

[Elewyth(TLSOA)]

firstly the reason i shouted at your running into the spawn at BoS was because i was there for my paladin.. not for me and id spent 20mins clearing spawn but got a little too close... when i arrived back i saw a pala running into the hesperis as if to take the belt... how would that look to you? like you had taken the last mob and were taking the belt, im sure you would have been a little pissed to.... 2ndly i did apologise when i saw the mob floating arond near the centre.. and i offered to help you get the artifact next time it spawned.. which seeing your level i doubt you could have done solo.. and you still complain..? wtf?

Then we had kalares.. i was passing through as i knew the arty was due to pop inside of 10-15mins.. you were there on your boat... i pm'd you and offered to leave it for you instead of me getting it.. why would you be wary of me? i just spent 10-15mins doing Belt Of Sun for you for no reward for myself, i gave over Kalares to you when i could have not told you it was going to spawn and taken it myself.. does that sound like the actions of a greedy person? no.

And to the person who thinks im stupid for lowering prices... no im not just giving them cheap arties to sell on at higher prices.. if they want to camp my house theyre free to do so.. just like i got a bot at Herbal's house for when hes done Dragon Raid's so i can buy some cheap Respec stones.. why? because obviously Herbal sees the benefit of selling Cheaper stuff i got 2 respec stone at his house for 5p... full respec stones! everywhere else was 7-9p.

As for the nimbus strand... yes farming sometimes lowers prices.. and no i wouldnt have bought one over 1p as i feel its not worth more than that...

Am i winning? lets look at the evidence... 2-3months ago Belt of moon 1 was average of 1-200g... now it sells for 1-3g.. after i sat for days and farmed 30+ of these scrolls theyre now common place at this price.. the same goes for many many other scrolls..i dont take all the credit for this price decrease as i know 90% of my guild has the same policy.. need before greed.. and im sure theres lots more people out there have the same ideals..

to the person who says im no better than som/cloudsong campers.... did you even read my post? i farm between 3am-7am and the spawn timers on BOM/BOS/Band of stars/Kalares are hardly even close to that of Cloudsong or som... most is 2-3 hrs... i really fail to see your point about how im affecting other players..

 

[Elewyth(TLSOA)]

3rdly wtf u mean at the expense of your paladin? wtf u on about? u had the key already clearly you didnt understand how the key works.. you have key you got to empty island (one with no protectors on it) put the key in your Qbar and use it.. a belt then appears in your backpack.. you didnt need to wait till the encounter was up... you couldda gone to any of the other 2 islands to get it at ANYTIME.

and besides i ad done 99% of the encounter BEFORE YOU GOT THERE.. how is that at the expense of your paladin? please explain that cos im failing to understand what your problem is? ffs thats the last time i offer to help a stranger.

 

[Dafft]

nah man, yer got it all wrong


the skills lay in undercutting the market, I always do. most of the stuff I sell on my CM goes quickly as for title: Need or Greed, sometimes you get into random grps or grp's with yer mates, ppl agree to /random 100 the arti's all's fair.

unless you want the artifact, then get a grp or two together go out, find the the encounter do it if it's up & no other ppl look ready, if ppl say they camping it, tell em to bog off.

my two cents worth of a nickel's dime

 

[Thorwyn]

ffs thats the last time i offer to help a stranger.

Sorry, but... LOL
Robin Hood gone bitter?


Seriously dude... your imaginations of what prices should be like are as subjective and out of the blue as all the other prices. The fact that you´re selling your stuff cheaper doesn´t make you a better person or your deeds an act of mercy, justice and truth, nor does it elevate you to some sort of higher morale grounds. The fact that you even SELL them for money and make profit of it is just a display of double standards. If you´re so obsessed with the concept of "one realm, one community" you should give them out for free.
You´re just trying to enforce what you think how this game should be played, nothing more. 1p is more money if you don´t have it as 5p if you have 50 in your char. It´s all relative. And you´re not an instance to tell anyone what item X is worth and what´s greedy and what´s morally acceptable. Yet, you seem to consider yourself some sort of defender of morale and justice and fight your little crusade.
A wise guy once said: There are DonQuichotes who´re sowing wind so that they can fight windmills.

 

[Missythang]

Oh well - so much for trying to thank people for what was, at the end of the day, valued and valuable advice and assistance. It's easy to be misunderstood and that was the point of the earlier post. It was not a complaint - just saying it's very easy for things to be taken the wrong way - and clearly that had happened on both sides.
Shame you've taken it this way, Ele - my thanks and appreciation are genuine and I apologise for the consternation the earlier post caused you.

 

[Kaladin(LSoA)]

The fact that you even SELL them for money and make profit of it is just a display of double standards.

erm...... all fair and well to give away free to those that need it, but would this drop the prices of the items upon the CM, i do not think so, with placeing the items u get most of the time on your CM at a price 300-500 gold cheaper than the next helps the price to fall quickly, i should know done it with several things eg. Moon Belt Scrolls & Sun Belt Scrolls & Traldor Arti (and before u Flame for doing Traldor all the time, theres a reason y im doing Traldor, im after the robe for my wizard ). and b4 u say im doing it for the money, ask my guild or others that know me, im no playing the game for the money, i tend to use the gold to advance those that i get to know, due to me not really needing the gold. So in my views its not double standards, but a concerted effert to drop prices or items to a reasonable price for all to be able to get.

 

[pbaz]

a concerted effert to drop prices

It's called supply and demand. And you are being hopelessly naive (and arrogant) to believe that you are causing the market effects.

I notice that we're talking here about trivial items (BoS, for example). These items are so laughably easy to obtain that the market is saturated with people trying to sell them. This causes the price of those items to decline. It's nothing to do with your personal actions - remember we're in a marketplace with many thousands of participants.

You will notice that slightly harder to obtain items (let's say Battler or SoM - neither very difficult to get, but still rarer than BoS) are sitting around the 10-15p price point. You want to prove that you're having any kind of effect on the market? Let's see you exert a "concerted effort" to drop the price of Battler. You can't and won't succeed (this is so obvious a point that you won't even try). This is a harder to obtain item. The market will never be saturated with Battler in the same way that it is saturated with BoS's. Battler will always command a higher price than BoS. You've set up a self-fulfilling prophecy in the thread... You farm the "easy" artis/items and look! their price has dropped since you've been farming them! Of course, anything that's easy enough for you to farm is also easy for countless hundreds of others to farm. You're just one of many, many, many farmers and that is what causes the price decline.

This is a market with many thousands of people participating in its transactions. It would be wise to avoid thinking that your actions have anything more than a trivial effect on the market as a whole. But feel free to prove me wrong - I look forwards to seeing the market price of Battler fall to <5p over the next couple of weeks!

(NB. All of my chars that require Battler already have it. I pick this arti not for myself, but for the glory of Albion! Battler for all; and Elewyth the Generous for Queen! )

 

[Elewyth(TLSOA)]

and yor being very arrogant and naive when mentioning battler and som these two are HEAVILY camped... thus forcing the price to stay high.. or do you perchance live in a dream world where you can just stroll up without someone being there to farm to sell it?

Cloudsong is another HEAVILY camped arty.. oh and look 27p to buy.. suprised? no.. im not..

Dont take me for a mug because i have more business sense than you.. ive sucessfully run 2 business's.. sold the first for a 400% return on my intitial investment.. i seem to have some idea about how the economy works.. and i also know what is and isnt a good price for something.. its common sense..

27p for cloudsong isnt common sense.. its greed
6p for mad scalars isnt common sense its greed
7p+ for Battler/Malice isnt common sense it just pure fucking greed.. and if you try to deny that your an imbecile.

The whole point is thus...
camping = high price
Camping = less people getting
less people getting <only campers having> = high price
high price = bad for all
stop camping = good for all.
people thinking about others (omfg such a concept in a MMORPG) is good for all...

so what if someone buys a Belt Of Moon from me for 300g... id rather they buy that from me for 300g and feel they got a bargain.. than buy it from a complete retard for 1p and feel ripped off cos circumstances meant thats the only way they could get it.. and had to pay for it... i dont pretend to be some sort of Consumer champion.. i just offer simple realistic prices.. which ever way you look at it is good for everyone.. well cept 1 group of people. the campers/greedy fuks...

so if your bitching i wonder which category you fall into...?

 

[Thorwyn]

lol

...whatever you say Robin

 

[DrunkSkunk]

lol... drol...

i r not proud to be a belgian anymore, knowing red HATred is 1 too..

plz move, ty

 

[pbaz]

Dont take me for a mug because i have more business sense than you..

You know nothing about me. Making presumptious statements doesn't help you to avoid the "mug" label.

i seem to have some idea about how the economy works..

camping = high price
Camping = less people getting
less people getting <only campers having> = high price
high price = bad for all
stop camping = good for all.

Well, I apologise to all those who need to see this logical flow again, but it seems Ele missed the other 10,000,000,000 threads where this was explained in tediously simple terms...

Camping = The mob is killed as soon as it pops.
Camping = The maximum number of artis/scrolls/items that it is possible to obtain are obtained (because there is no wasted time - the mob is killed as soon as it pops).
Maximum number of items available = Market moves closer to saturation.
Market moves closer to saturation = Price drops.
Price drops = Good for all.

So despite your insightful and incisive grasp of market forces (let me guess, your 400% ROI was on an initial investment of 10 quid, right?! ) you get one thing wrong: if people ceased to camp/farm items (yes, even the "rare" items!) then prices would be even higher.

mentioning battler and som these two are HEAVILY camped... thus forcing the price to stay high..

I don't get it - I thought you said you understood how the economy works?

so what if someone buys a Belt Of Moon from me for 300g... id rather they buy that from me for 300g and feel they got a bargain.. than buy it from a complete retard for 1p and feel ripped off cos circumstances meant thats the only way they could get it.. and had to pay for it... i dont pretend to be some sort of Consumer champion.. i just offer simple realistic prices.. which ever way you look at it is good for everyone..

My point is that you are offering "simple realistic prices" on items that are so easy to farm that actually charging anything for them is laughable. You are doing nothing to influence the market because you are talking about items that have no intrinsic value. That's why I gave the Battler example. If you want to do an experiment and show all us idiots that the DAoC market is unlike a real-life market then show us that you can drive the "going price" for Battler down to under 5p. It's a simple challenge. You claim to have done this with several items already (artis and scrolls) so it should be no problem to do it again - right? You are displaying freakish levels of inability to grasp very simple economic principles and that's what my Battler example was designed to illuminate.

so if your bitching i wonder which category you fall into...?

The "I think Elewyth hasn't got a clue how market forces work" category?

 

[Kaj]

Calm down guys, dont take this so personal. The whole idea is to make the realm get closer and friendlier, not to argue.

I think most of you get my point, lets leave it at that. Let's hope this gives results in the right direction.

 

[Gabbe]

Dont cry about people camping mobs just go an take the mob from them when it spawns

 

[Elewyth(TLSOA)]

So despite your insightful and incisive grasp of market forces (let me guess, your 400% ROI was on an initial investment of 10 quid, right?! ) you get one thing wrong: if people ceased to camp/farm items (yes, even the "rare" items!) then prices would be even higher.

and fyi.. it was £75,000 initial investment.. bit more than the £10 the dole office gives you i suspect...

I don't get it - I thought you said you understood how the economy works?

i think the first 3 words sums you up tbh.

My point is that you are offering "simple realistic prices" on items that are so easy to farm that actually charging anything for them is laughable. You are doing nothing to influence the market because you are talking about items that have no intrinsic value.

again you fail to grasp the concept..

in the case of Bom/Bos its now redundant for campers to keep farming this item simply because people like me have saturated the market with cheap versions, so they move onto bigger fish...cloudsong/battler.. ill get round to them when i get organised.. or when i cba..

That's why I gave the Battler example. If you want to do an experiment and show all us idiots that the DAoC market is unlike a real-life market then show us that you can drive the "going price" for Battler down to under 5p. It's a simple challenge. You claim to have done this with several items already (artis and scrolls) so it should be no problem to do it again - right? You are displaying freakish levels of inability to grasp very simple economic principles and that's what my Battler example was designed to illuminate.

i can guarantee you ill push the price down, if for nothing else to wipe the smug look off your face thinking you know better

 

[Carrera]

I think you are the only one who doesn't get it, Elewyth. Agree with pbaz here, and I think he has alot more understanding on the subject than you. You only have to look at the average price of certain "heavily camped" artfiacts such as battler or som 3 months ago compared to now to see the price has reduced.

Your argument is based on the fact that the same people are doing these artifacts, I'd be really interested if you could prove this. You make it sound like there are 2 people in the whole of albion hoarding all these items for themselves. The fact is the more people that do these artifacts, the more are available, so there is more competition between sellers, thus forcing the prices down.

As for your belief that you single handedly brought down the price of BOS.. I guess the fact you can solo it and it repops every hour has nothing to do with it

Ill be watching a close eye on the price of battler over the next few weeks, I'll make sure I remind you about your promise to farm battler for the good of albion! :wub:

 

[pbaz]

So despite your insightful and incisive grasp of market forces (let me guess, your 400% ROI was on an initial investment of 10 quid, right?! ) you get one thing wrong: if people ceased to camp/farm items (yes, even the "rare" items!) then prices would be even higher.

and fyi.. it was £75,000 initial investment.. bit more than the £10 the dole office gives you i suspect...

That's a nice return - I can only congratulate you for that. Just FYI, I work as a consultant to billion-dollar multi-national clients doing market modelling to help them maximise their ROI. I don't have access to a dole office

I don't get it - I thought you said you understood how the economy works?

i think the first 3 words sums you up tbh.

"I don't get"... That's not even a complete sentence, so I'm not sure what you mean with this startlingly witty riposte.

i can guarantee you ill push the price down, if for nothing else to wipe the smug look off your face thinking you know better

Unfortunately, I do know better. But I look forwards to seeing the decline of Battler's going price to under 5p. It's a tough goal you've been set but you seem happy to take up the challenge... For Albion, etc etc!

Hopefully the original poster won't be so worried that this thread was becoming a flame-fest now that something so good for the realm has come out of this discussion!

 

[Elewyth(TLSOA)]

As for your belief that you single handedly brought down the price of BOS.. I guess the fact you can solo it and it repops every hour has nothing to do with it

please point me to the part where i said i single handedly did this?
didnt think you could.. i said people LIKE me.

 

[Carrera]

Talk around the points all you like, it doesn't make you look any less stupid.

 

[Elewyth(TLSOA)]

That's a nice return

yes it was.

"I don't get "... That's not even a complete sentence, so I'm not sure what you mean with this startlingly witty riposte.

3 words / 4 not much diff tbh

Unfortunately, I do know better. But I look forwards to seeing the decline of Battler's going price to under 5p. It's a tough goal you've been set but you seem happy to take up the challenge... For Albion, etc etc!

and its not that difficult.. ive solod battler and malice with a FoP bot and FDS... just takes a little while thats all.. not really that difficult to log in at 3am solo one move onto next rinse repeat for 2 weeks.. have 14 battlers/malice etc.. assuming all goes to plan/ it doesnt bug/decide not to drop for some reason like it did last time i FDS'd it... still we shall see..
5p tbh still seems over priced for 30mins work..

lol i dont do this for Albion etc etc.. the majority of Albion are self centered tossers.. who would rather run around emain than help retake keeps.. only when u mention theres 2-3fg hibs on Beno do a few turn up.. tbh i think in NF albion here is screwed...

i do it because:
1. im bored
2. i dont have to work because i hire people to do that for me, so i can sit here or in game 24/7
3. im bored

again i dont think im special... i dont think im on some moral crusade.. for the most part im bored with lots of time to spare so i put that time to good use.. rather than making my self rich i get stuff for others.. theres nothing wrong with that.. it is afterall what a MMORPG is all about.. helping each other not exploiting others to make yourself richer.. i use the word exploit cos im tired and cba thinking of another word right now... :touch:

And yes tbh i have seen the same people log in a bot check spawn.. if its up mysteriously 30s later a whole grp logs in kills ... then logs out... so to a certain degree it IS the same people farming these over and over.. with a small repop timer it wouldnt affect anyone.. but when the timers are over 7-8hrs thats a whole day fucked up for a casual player... again for greed.. i have yet to see ANY evidence of Jacina's/Battler/Malice/Cloudsong dropping in price.. if as you claim there being farmed more by more people so prices will drop... it simply isnt happening.. sure in the real world.. id be the first to make a fast buck.. and i wouldnt care who i tread on to get it.. i have no ethics when it comes to real money.. but this isnt the real world... it isnt like the real economy.. if it were id be perma camping most arties and selling on at a higher price.. perhaps ebay can be blamed to an extent.. but a large proportion is placed on the player who is 99.9% of the time motivated by greed... ive done it myself.. seen a mob thought wee thats worth xx plat if it drops xx item.. but then tbh its not hard to think.. actually i dont need that ill leave it for someone else... apparently someone people cant do that.

 

[Lothandar]

Pbaz sounds right, battler in mid costed 22plats or more in the start weeks of toa.


Now it was farmed several times for other items (since it drops great light tank and caster sleeves) and the artifact itself goes for 9-10p

 

[pbaz]

ive done it myself.. seen a mob thought wee thats worth xx plat if it drops xx item.. but then tbh its not hard to think.. actually i dont need that ill leave it for someone else... apparently someone people cant do that.

Please, please, please - if you see a mob up that drops something valuable and/or that the realm needs and you can kill it, kill it!

What you do with the item after it drops (if it drops) is up to you. But you're actually hurting everyone by not killing that mob.

The key element is to kill those mobs as often as possible so that they repop as many times per day and/or week as possible. If this is done, the market moves much faster towards saturation and the "going price" for this item will fall faster - thereby allowing everyone that needs the item to get their hands on it as easily as possible and as quickly as possible.

By "leaving that mob for someone else", you are actively choosing to minimise the number of drops from that mob in the marketplace and, therefore, actively choosing to keep the price for those items inflated.

So, for the benefit of everyone never, ever, ever walk past a farmable mob if you have the capability to kill it and you know it drops items people will buy.

 

[Kaladin(LSoA)]

(let's say Battler or SoM - neither very difficult to get, but still rarer than BoS)

yeah these artis are not difficult, but i was stating i was dropping the SCROLLS not artis doh!!!!! and 3of3 is rare but the prices keep falling, as for u lot stating Heavly Camped Artis brings down the prices, wheres the prove of this, there stilll never come down, if any thing i would say they go up, since its the same people that camp and gain the arti to sell in there CM's, the price will never go down cause u only place 1 or 2 in to the CM and charge silly price for it, once a mug comes and buys it, u place another into CM to cover the ones gone for excactly the same price as the one just been sold etc etc etc, hence the price never goes down. But like some one stated in this forum some where (sorry cba to find ya thread so except my appology) if im with a group and see a arti mob thats camped by one or two memebers i will take the mob out, has the code of conduct says theres no such law on camping unless u have pulled the mob and have engaged it, oppssss wait, a BB cant engage it can it, he will die, to bad.

 

[Elewyth(TLSOA)]

Please, please, please - if you see a mob up that drops something valuable and/or that the realm needs and you can kill it, kill it!

What you do with the item after it drops (if it drops) is up to you. But you're actually hurting everyone by not killing that mob.

The key element is to kill those mobs as often as possible so that they repop as many times per day and/or week as possible. If this is done, the market moves much faster towards saturation and the "going price" for this item will fall faster - thereby allowing everyone that needs the item to get their hands on it as easily as possible and as quickly as possible.

By "leaving that mob for someone else", you are actively choosing to minimise the number of drops from that mob in the marketplace and, therefore, actively choosing to keep the price for those items inflated.

So, for the benefit of everyone never, ever, ever walk past a farmable mob if you have the capability to kill it and you know it drops items people will buy.

the problem with your statement although i can see your point is its flawed for the very reason this thread was started in the first place.. need or greed..
the majority of people who pass a mob and think ooo that drops xxx is they kill it get $$$ signs in their eyes and xx amount of time later said item appears on their CM for a silly price.

 

[pbaz]

as for u lot stating Heavly Camped Artis brings down the prices, wheres the prove of this

Two or three months ago, going price of SoM was 15-20p. Current going price for SoM is now 10-15p. A 25-30% reduction in price.

the price will never go down cause u only place 1 or 2 in to the CM and charge silly price for it, once a mug comes and buys it, u place another into CM to cover the ones gone for excactly the same price as the one just been sold etc etc etc, hence the price never goes down.

An item is worth exactly what someone is prepared to pay for it. No more, no less. Try an experiment - put Battler on your CM for 100p. See how many "mugs" snap up that deal. I paid 15p for my SoM - was I a mug for paying this? I felt it was a fair price, I had the resources to pay the asking price and the seller obviously felt this was the value of the item. I got an item I wanted and the market moves a tiny fraction of a step closer to saturation. All those "mugs" that paid 15p for their SoM's played a part in helping move the price of SoM down to the current going price. The cost of items is, indeed, decreasing over time. You're just not paying attention.

 

[pbaz]

the problem with your statement although i can see your point is its flawed for the very reason this thread was started in the first place.. need or greed..
the majority of people who pass a mob and think ooo that drops xxx is they kill it get $$$ signs in their eyes and xx amount of time later said item appears on their CM for a silly price.

My logic is not flawed. My logic states that the need/greed question is a false issue. The only thing that matters is getting as many of the "valued" items into the marketplace as possible. This, in the long run, is beneficial to everyone in the realm without bias.

People are free to put an item on their CM for a "silly price" - it simply won't sell. But that's their choice.