multihealers groups

[case-rigantis]

in most groups i`m in we always designate a sweeper...
usually the lowest level tank to stand a little further back and look out for mobs aggroing the healers or wizzys`this way we stay alive
exped for 4.5 hours last night auto pulling gobbo`s in lyonesse with no deaths whatsoever

 

[cadiva]

Originally posted by Vell
I am now left with 1 dead tank, 4 tanks on low life, 1 healer with aggro, and a runie. What do I do? Group insta. I KNEW full well that I would die doing it, but every other member of the group survived.

Too true Vell. I have a lvl 16 cleric on Alb with the first level instant group heal and manys the time it has saved our asses from the fire and its rarely that I have ended up dead as most of our tank types have stuck to their monster like glue and so if the monster heads for me with the heal aggro, then so does the tanky, bashing it all the way

I am not super l33t levels yet of course, maybe things will change at 35+ but providing your group knows what the hell its doing , your healer should rarely die.

In Midgard, on the other hand, I have a lvl 24 shammie and she's not died for about 5 levels when out bashing with my guildees and she doesn't have a group instant heal.
Guess it depends on the people you bash with.

Just my 2 coppersworth, do what you will with em, it matters not.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

The problem isn't usually healers I have found but tanks that don't know when its time to lose agro or groups that won't play to their strengths. Skalds for instance, can't take much damage compared to warriors and should stay off special moves that get them agro until the mob is half dead or if the situation changes mid fight (say from agro or failed mez, or lead tank taking too much of a beating).
Tanks that constantly use their special moves without thought will tend to get the group killed unless they have a very high amount of hit points.

If the healers are working too hard you have to examine the pulls VERY carefully. It means your tanks aren't hitting the mob enough times or are unable to hit it hard enough while taking damage themselves.

Most combinations of groups can work though the tactics have to vary quite a lot. For instance, in a group that has slightly weaker tanks, root the mob, debuff it, then continue pull. Softened up mob easier to hit and weaker to hit back. If a healer has to work too hard consistantly you probably need to change targets. Chain pulling yellow/orange cons (con to highest level in group) is better group xp than purple cons with large downtime because healers and casters are low on power after every pull.

I was in a group of 6 with 2 Healers, Thane, Warrior, Spirit Master and a Hunter. We were doing purple cons to highest level in group and so long as everyone stuck to the game plan all was cool. Occasional purple agro was handled too.

One last thing on this: you ALWAYS get deaths in a group until the group hits its stride, and sometimes even then. You make back the xp by learning from how the death occured and getting on with the xp munching. Anyone who expects a no-death-every-group-session situation is kidding themselves on. Wouldn't be exciting if you could safely munch xp all the time. Big problem is often peeps that get a death in group and go off to sulk rather than getting on with the carnage. Remember to look at xp as xp over time, rather than xp per kill. That way you can judge wether a group is successful or not. In many respects, its the quality of player in group that matters for the most part, not their character class.

 

[Vell]

Originally posted by Ultraroo
Anyone who expects a no-death-every-group-session situation is kidding themselves on. Wouldn't be exciting if you could safely munch xp all the time.

See, now this is something I can't understand. I love to explore. Wander around, see what I can find, kill it or run from it, and experience the 'entire' realm. Other people prefer to sit in the same place, pulling the same mob, over and over, because there is good xp with no risk. Like you said - how is this exciting?
Answer - it's not. And these are the very same people who complain that levelling is tedious, dull and too slow. Well, how about you get off your arse and actually explore! It's a hell of a lot more fun to pull something you aren't sure about and have a close battle, than get repetivite strain injury.

 

[infozwerg]

Vell, its fun to discuss with someone who actually knows what he is talking about.

Well, aren't you a friendly chap.

yes. ppl dun leave my group with "woa, youre a nice guy". but i heard "best group i was ever in, shame to leave" and thats as good enuff for me.

no kidding.

That's the whole point, dear. Sometimes, things don't go according to plan. And that's when insta saves lives.

there is no such thing as a whole point. sure insta can save life. but more often than not, single insta will not be enough things look really bad, and groupinsta mostly leads to groupwipeout cause healer is dead on a 10 sec timer after using it.

Let me give you an example. I am the secondary healer in a group.

i have to admit that ive never been in the situation to be secondary healer.

Every mezz gets resisted. I notice this and start spamming my area mezz, but as you might expect, this gets resisted too. But our tanks are good, and manage to get the mobs off of us and onto them, so we start healing. [...]

ok, as you would agree, primary healer pulls. as this is only a single group, 3 mobs come.

healer pulls with root (1 resist), mezzes (2 resist), mezzes again (3 resist), instastuns (4 resist), instamezzes (5 resist), yells.

meanwhile main tank has picked another mob and attacks it, so one mob on primary healer, one mob on main tank, one mob on random target.

your action was to spam ae mezz. as you said, you are even lower than primary healer so this was waste of time and power as it couldnt (with significant chance) lead to the desired result.

instead of ae mezz, you could have healed the main tank. not with insta, just one small baseline heal. result: you get aggro from two mobs. now, primary healer can mezz the two or one tanks can taunt them off you while primary healer does the mezzing. other tanks beat up on first target, runemaster spams runic fend on you or main tank.

result: party lives without using insta.

now what prooves this? maybe not that groupinsta is "bad" but that typical situations where groupinsta is used can be resolved without it.

Except, because the tanks are taking big damage, we have to spam heal, and the other healer manages to aggro back onto himself. I am now left with 1 dead tank, 4 tanks on low life, 1 healer with aggro, and a runie. What do I do? Group insta. I KNEW full well that I would die doing it, but every other member of the group survived.

i had that situation sometimes. but my secondary healer never died after groupinsta.

Oh, and by the way, healers get insta stun at 28 pac, and insta mezz at 29. Not the 38 you quoted.

with pac 38 you have ae instas.

if you have to use groupinsta, you will not have one mob on you, but sometimes 2 and most times 3. you cant handle that with single instas, and they will be on timer anyways as you dont have to use groupinsta when you still have instamezz and stun.


ciao,
Estat

 

[infozwerg]

lcdtip
exped for 4.5 hours last night auto pulling gobbo`s in lyonesse with no deaths whatsoever

ive exped for 6 levels straight at gobbos without ever dieing, so thats hardly something special.

For instance, in a group that has slightly weaker tanks, root the mob, debuff it, then continue pull.

currently, debuffs on mobs are waste of mana as they heve next to no effect. healer att speed debuff is an exeption.

Chain pulling yellow/orange cons (con to highest level in group) is better group xp than purple cons with large downtime because healers and casters are low on power after every pull.

any party that doesnt chainpull purple (for 8ppl) or red (for 4-6 ppl) with adds is weak exp.

its the quality of player in group that matters for the most part, not their character class.

so true.



ciao,
Estat,
da double posta

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

I agree with Vell on the exploring thing. Too many peeps go to the well know areas, moan about dull xp and I have to smile to myself and wonder why they're playing. I have found loads of different areas that suit different team combinations and can usually get fairly reasonable xp in a wide variety of areas. I've pushed up the daisies in most parts of Midgard but had a fun time doing it.

Going back to the healer thing though, in multihealer groups if you position the healers at opposite sides of the fight team, the tanks have a chance to intercept if one or other gets agro. this can take the pressure of the insta heal insta agro thing sometimes. Not guaranteed but really helps a lot. Nobody likes instas because lets face it, it means the group is in a really sticky situation and is usually the result of a misjudged pull, wandering agro, or an unlucky spawn.

I like multihealer groups because they can use low power heals, don't take agro, and we don't have to go charging around chasing mobs that wanna take a bite out of the group's most important peeps. If a healer gets agro I sometimes have to start nuking the mob if the tanks are still clobbering the main pull and this usually means I'm face down fast. Also, multi healer teams quite often have an extra chance if a mez fails, which as you go up the levels has a greater chance of happening since you are dealing with crowd control more and more. So long as the tanks can actually hit the mob, it will die and the team will win.

Try taking on a couple of purple cons and a red con at the same time without a multi healer group, see how long you last

 

[old.Atrophy]

Odd never ever had anyone in a group complain I saved there arse with a insta, even if was face down chewing grass (always worked on theory of hey if im the healer long as rest survive then great) Also if party ever did all get wiped out, some of best healers I ever met are the ones who say "Dont release im on way back"

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Agreed with infozwerg on the chainpull thing to a point - Mixing the cons of mobs is best xp - high end/mana pulls for purples mixed with some lower ones while recharging or getting end back up. With the lower con mobs you can also let 2 or 3 get through deliberately since they are so easy to hack up and the tanks split the targets between them. Certain hunting areas you have to keep clearing out the lower stuff so you got a safe path for the puller to the higher stuff.

Completely disagree on the debuffs though. I've deliberately held back from debuffing mobs on the way in to see how the tanks do
and the miss rate is a lot higher without the qui/dex debuffs on mobs. The healers have to work harder if the mob's strength isn't debuffed usually. This doesn't apply to mobs that nuke obviously, but the SM attack speed debuff minimises the occurance of those.
Also remember that if you have lower level peeps in the group they can struggle to hit the mobs sometimes, their xp will suffer and by doing the debuffs your helping them xp too.

SM as well has healer also has attack speed debuff and this is one of the first debuffs I put on incoming mob

Debuff order is usually for me: attack speed, dex/qui (so the tanks have higher chance of taking the agro faster) and then str con. SMs have several debuffs in various areas so I mix and match depending on situation. Slow moving hard hitting mobs get the str debuff sooner than fast moving weaker hitters.

The effect of debuffs is incredibly noticable when solo - if you want your pet to be able to hit the beastie at all, they are an absolute must for anything that cons higher than blue, and sometimes even then.

/em Climbs down from soapbox, gives thread back to healer discussion

I'd love to see that healer only group in action, bet that was a hoot and you just know nobody is going to blame the healer for anything that happens. These are the kind of things you just got to try for fun. Have done similar with SMs only, its a chuckle.

Interesting point raised by Infozwerg about agro though (when referring to runies): every group member has to make sure they contribute to keeping the agro on the lead tank at the same time they are helping to kill it. Yep, its the mentally challenged ones that don't seem to cotton on to this. You don't HAVE to kill a mob as quickly as possible just because its tougher than expected, its buddies are mezzed and the clock is ticking. Remezzing mobs if fight taking to long is the way to handle that. Making the healers not have to work too hard means that they (or SM) can make sure the fight is properly controlled. One healer in group its difficult to concentrate on remezzing and healing, 2 or more and you got the whole thing covered