multihealers groups

[old.Brutallus]

Generally do not join 2+ healer groups, but if accidently you do I would advice:

1) if 2 healers: watch if people die within first 30sec fight (you have at least 75% probability YES); if yes run away!
2) if 3+ healers: as soon as possible hit 'run' key, then 'sprint', then 'disband'; exactly in this order as time is critical in this case

based on my actual experience from 3 different groups
if someone has other - would be nice to hear...

 

[Flimgoblin]

Grouped last night...

Friar, 2 clerics and a wizard

Couldn't do anything big (no purples for us) but we were killing oranges by the dozen. (would have done better if our Friar was higher level.. the oranges to the pulling wizard were red to him mostly)

Or are you meaning Midgard Healers? rather than just multiple healing-types?

 

[Stekkerdoos]

why is this?

 

[old.Brutallus]

more serious now...

good question: why

generally a few times I experienced that strong grp of 7-8 ppl with 2-3 healer "suffered deaths" from the very beginning of fighting

now why... I can only guess, cause I do not exactly know what ppl do - just see effects
but it seems to me that it is too boring (for others) to set up a plan/strategy so healers heal accidently
this results are - sometimes - power waste & heals for the same PC, but worse - and quite often - not healing fast enough when someone is seriously wounded (everyone thinks someone is healing already, actually nobody ??? just guessing... )
quickly it is too late and combining this with power waste - the final effect is everyone or most dies.

you haven't experienced that ???
hm... maybe I am unlucky

 

[Galatea]

Actually, funny story, I've died in a full group w/ 3 clerics because

• 
  1. I'm a wizzie and die in a few hits to high conning monsters
  2. The 3 clerics were a bit overzealous with smiting at the time

 

[Flimgoblin]

Yeah I know what you mean...

If the healers don't know who they're healing ... if there's three of them they'll all assume one of the other ones is....

Need to define exactly what they're doing when there's more than one, otherwise you get overheal or underheal. (and either out of mana early and deaths, or deaths)

 

[Krillin]

hmm more anti cleric posts

anyway if you don't think grouping with 2 clerics is a good idea please explain why??

If one cleric gets aggro then the other can heal why the tanks get it off them. Also more buffs to go round and 4 insta heals

A group with 3 clerics like the one i was in last night is also more than reasonable

2 heal and one smites and stops when they reach half mana for emergency heals. 6 instas, everyone fully buffed.

Got to say i'm not sure what has caused this anti cleric type attitude at the minute but i hope its just been a run of new clerics/healers or just the occasional bad few.

 

[old.Carnak]

When i heal...

I always heal if someone is low on health, regardless of what the other cleric is doing. Usually the fight ends with no deaths and no mana - more downtime but i think thats worth the exp from not dieing. btw im level 12 now with my cleric but have been in numerous 2+ healer groups, and usually a strategy is worked out for who heals who, etc.

 

[old.Brutallus]

hmm more anti cleric posts

not exactly - it's the people who play it - not the class itself
forgot to add I am a cleric too
(and I am the one who died FIRST healing others & not being healed when finally I got aggroed; happend not once )

If one cleric gets aggro then the other can heal why the tanks get it off them. Also more buffs to go round and 4 insta heals
A group with 3 clerics like the one i was in last night is also more than reasonable

2 heal and one smites and stops when they reach half mana for emergency heals. 6 instas, everyone fully buffed.

I know what are the advantages (fully agree with you), but the question is if group is using it or not...

 

[old.Whut]

Easy to blame the healers isn't it? uke:

If you are dying that fast, first thing to look at is who is pulling and what is being pulled. There are far too many that pull, pull, pull, with no regard to power supply available for healing.

Their idea of pulling is often to pull then insist on fighting out of heal range, and in pop zones. Or run up to the mob and stay there. then you get the ones that will hit any mob that is passing, even when they don't know what it is, and that it is even 20 - 30 levels higher than them.

Then look at what the classes in the group are doing.

With baf pulls, a healer cannot heal immediately, or instant aggro arrives, and you usually have a very quickly dead healer. Disaster is then imminent, because healing assumptions are made on the pull, due to the number of healers at the start, and not the likely number part way through. Assumptions are made about mezzes and roots too, that they are always 100% reliable.

If you are a caster and die right at the start of a fight, almost always this is because you have hit the loud button far too quickly. If you have done that, serves you right, and get your timing and attention to damage levels better in future.

How many tanks (or even casters) will switch their attention to the mobs on the healer(s)? In my experience, not that many until you get to quite high level, where people (not all by any means) have learned the hard way*. They remain focussed on the mob they start fighting and don't look elsewhere other than their own health bars, until that mob is dead. It completely passes them by, that the reason they are not getting heals when they scream for them, is that the healer is either dead, or close to death, because of the mob(s) on them.

Yes there are healers and healers. There are tanks and tanks, and casters and casters too.

There is something called aggro management, and it might pay to remember that sometimes.

When I group, if the group is no good, it is pretty obvious within a couple of pulls. One or two individuals always seem to insist on standing in areas that are dangerous for the whole group - or even run around all over the place then wonder where all the mobs and the mobs relatives and in-laws have come from. "WTF! Where did they come from!! djhfiauhflasf**** " There are also those that simply cannot tolerate the fact that someone else may be a better puller than them, and refuse to listen, so they go "freestyle pulling" as well.

I then take my leave of the group, unfortunately it is usually from my bind point.

* This is why I personally am totally opposed to the selling of game accounts. When someone appears to be lvl 40+, you shouldn't be expected to put up with a totally inexperienced person playing that level a character.

 

[Vell]

I think you can put your bad experiences down to inexperience.

I group 95% of the time with a Shaman, Korgano, and we don't even need to communicate to know what the other one is doing. We just know. But the only way you can get to this point is to group with somone regularly.

Honestly tho, at least 2 healer types is needed to be able to handle the higher mobs to get great XP.

 

[cleeve]

Lo all

Druid lvl 36 Hib Hib/Pryd
Dorf Healer lvl 15 Mid/Excal

I concentrate on support - this means I rarely have any buffs on me in groups (other than dex and dex/con as druid) to boost cast times.

I am going to Echo Whuts sentiments entirely. I have been accused of being a noob, not knowing how to heal etc by many a tank who has pulled 3 purple con beasties to a group and then died as a result. They dont realise I cannot heal before he has engaged a mob - they dont realise that the chances of a mezz sticking to a purple with magic resistance are low - almost none. They don't realise full stop.

What do I think you can do to resolve these problems. In my opinion the following things are good signs of a group

1.) annoyance at anyone dying in the course of a fight - it shouldnt happen unless you are taking risks

2.) Communication - Pulling, Inc sw, add, mezzed, aggro, lowp, lowe etc

3.) Heal/guard/protect/ etc - when I see tanks join and immediately ask who has guard who has protect I feel far safer - 9 times out of 10 they know what they can and cannot do and how to work with other tanks well

4.) Who Pulls? ONLY EVER HAVE ONE PULLER!!! Nothing worse than two people pulling because they arent paying attention. On occasion double pull can work in groups that know each other very very well. In general it fails miserably and gets the group killed.

5.) Its Your Fault I Died XXXXXXXX You're a n00b. click yourself and click disband. It simply isnt worth it for that kind of abuse, Even if it is that person's fault. Blame allocation is a negative thing - its the worst thing that can happen in a group - The best reaction is ok that didnt work - we dont want that to happen again and this is how we shall try and stop that happening.

Just my opinion on grouping. Yes there are bad healers just as there are bad tanks. yes there are selfish healers. You will find bad examples of every class in my opinion. Mainly because people are playing a class unsuited to their play style and desperately trying to do something that their class isnt the best suited too. Just add them to ur I dont group with that person list and continue in your playing.


Revor (snarri mid/excal)

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Vell
I think you can put your bad experiences down to inexperience.

I group 95% of the time with a Shaman, Korgano, and we don't even need to communicate to know what the other one is doing. We just know. But the only way you can get to this point is to group with somone regularly.

Honestly tho, at least 2 healer types is needed to be able to handle the higher mobs to get great XP.

Yeah taking on two purple haggy thanes and getting them both. The key is everyone working together. and doing their jobs. Korgs root pull or your mezz pull, the other one rooting or mezzing adds and the tanks keeping the aggro from you both and sharing the pain.

One healer is always a gamble because with two if it goes very pear shaped usually one makes it out alive, I think more than two is probably overkill (apart from with friars and smite clerics who can dole out a decent amount of damage...) but 2 who know how to do their job is optimum.

Of course, we are ghosts and we do know what we are doing ;-)

 

[Smartypants]

Brutallus and Galatea: Two or three clerics in a group works just fine. It can even be a great group. Provided, as several people already have pointed out, that everybody in the group knows what they are doing...

I think you both have had the misfortune of playing in a really crappy group...

Three clerics, and all of them busy smiting...??

 

[Cohannyn]

As a former Rejuv/Enh only cleric, and before that a Midgard healer, I would call myself a pretty experienced healer. I know how to group.

Despite being heal-only in groups though, I would never turn down an additional cleric or healer. For example, in the Catacombs in groups of 6-8, two healers are a must! Three would be great.

You just have to have tactics.. Healers should determine before a battle who heals who, and the most logical and best way to work is to divide the list of party-members into sections. Sometimes it works best if the group is disbanded and then one of the healers start up the group and adds members in a smart way.

What we usually did was me being group-leader, then I added a combination of tanks and casters first, then half-way I added the other Cleric and then a new combination of tanks and casters.

That way we split the group in half, where the other Cleric would heal the "top", while I would heal the bottom. We then didn't have to worry about drying up on the powerfront because neither one of us had lone responsibility of the tanks, and at the same time we were responsible for healing eachother.

A good group would look like this:

Cleric1
Tank1
Tank2
Caster
---------
Cleric2
Tank1
Tank2
Caster

Where tank1 represents a primary tank such as armsman, paladin or mercenary, and tank2 is a weaker tank-character like a fighting Friar or a Scout/Hunter.

 

[Vell]

While that's very nice to do at lower levels Cohannyn, it really doesn't work so good higher up. I wouldn't recommend doing it past 15-20. You will find that one tank will consistently get the aggro, and the healer responsible for them will be dry, while the other is still on full.

The best way to do it, is to use the lesser heals - that way, even if both do heal the same target, no power is wasted. The quick cast time will also ensure that you can heal enough to keep them alive.

 

[cleeve]

Yup

That works great at higher levels when your small heal does 150-200 health per shot - but at lower levels - I find I have to use the mid range heal as the beasties hit so hard and the armour and evade/guard ability on tanks is so low.

At lower levels I think you need more healers that at highers where u can probably get away with 2 heal specced healers in an 8 man party

Revor /snarri

 

[Cohannyn]

As I mentioned, it worked fine in Catacombs, with the two main tanks consistently "stealing" the attention of the mobs from eachother, and this was around level 25.

And I always used the "smaller" heals, never the big ones. The big ones were emergency only, because I knew they draw aggro.

Edit: Naturally we also keep a look out at the power-bars for eachother so that we know if we need to "take over".

 

[matax]

I would suggest that if you have a full group, 2 healers is a must.
As Cohannyn says they can split the healing duties between them. If one tank is always taking the aggro, then the unused healer can do some back-up tanking (being careful not to aggro ) - this is something I have experienced in Hib with Druids who can tank a bit and works well if you need some extra tanking.
Alternatively the healers can take turns, pull 1: healer 1 heals, healer 2 tanks/rests - pull 2: healer 1 tanks/rests, healer 2 heals. With this example you can pull even quicker as you will always have a healer with full pow.
If your mobs are baffing (?) then assign a tank per mob and a healer per tank.

The most important thing in any group though is to make sure everyone knows what they are doing and that there is a reasonable amount of self-discipline. People running around pulling mobs all over the place, all the tanks having protect on the same person, healers/nukers using their high aggro mob magnets before the tanks can attract the mob etc. etc. We've all been there and hopefull all learned from these mistakes - and if you've got someone in your group screwing it up, tell them what they are doing wrong Although once you get to the 20s+ most people should know these things !

 

[Melodic]

as a healer I can tell you that I won't stay long ina group if I am the only healer...too much downtime and I usually die.

2+ healers is essential for great xp.

 

[Keri]

Funny how Hib players agree that 2+ healers makes for a great group. I think a full group, with 2 bards and a warden or druid is one I would be happy to be a member of, any time.

 

[SFXman]

A group with 2 clerics, 2 tanks, caster and minstrel is quite superb. Maybe even a third tank on top.
3+ healers is getting ridiculous and I bet that at that stage there most certainly is another group around with no healer or maybe just one...

 

[Armolas]

A good group should have 3+ healers in it (in hibbie land anyway), 1 druid, at least 1 warden, 1 bard and me as emergency healer

.Before patch add in an extra bard for mana song, nowadays i can do that instead.

Basically, druid and bard do the bulk of the healing (obviously the druid more than the bard), I throw in a heal should anybody look like they really need it, and the warden steps back and heals when the other healers die, even a warden with 0 regrowth is better than nothing.

A druid or bard can go from 0 to full mana in no time at all really, downtime for healers is practically nonexistent, it is us mages who need the mana breaks, especially if I heal, whichis why I don't heal much - healing is far too mana expensive when I do it a lot

 

[SFXman]

Bard that heals, damn Hibernia is straaaaaaaangggggeeeeee! We in Albion have simple concentrated characters, but some like to think differently (cleric gimp(smi)ters ).

 

[starblade]

A group with 2 clerics, 2 tanks, caster and minstrel is quite superb. Maybe even a third tank on top.

Or a damage caster / mezz caster.
Play with 2, even 3 healers a lot doing Lyonesse and we get great XP chaining and actually never die. Usually one healer is heal, one smite and one recovering. Never had any problems.

 

[case-rigantis]

in reply to this i would first say...why exactly are people such cowards? working out the best time to run when you see someone die?!!?

maybe i read teh posts here wrong but i don`t think so.
Myself ..if our group gets in trouble i use enrage then engage then shout RUN!!! that way at least only i die..doesn`t always work but more often than not it helps a lot.

also guys you`ll find most deaths occur after people start running..the no. of times I or my group have aggroed 4 or more purple mobs on a group of 8 and all looked like certain death and lived with only small losses!!

please guys get out of this silly notion of running at the first sign of trouble stick together you`ll live longer!

 

[Krillin]

Originally posted by SFXman
We in Albion have simple concentrated characters, but some like to think differently (cleric gimp(smi)ters ).

yeah we such a burden aren't we

 

[cadiva]

Originally posted by ldticp
also guys you`ll find most deaths occur after people start running..the no. of times I or my group have aggroed 4 or more purple mobs on a group of 8 and all looked like certain death and lived with only small losses!!

This is so true. My experiences in Midgard have proved that it is only when the group splits up that the shit happens and at least one person will die.

If we stick together and everyone takes a role within the group when a pull goes wrong - ie the tanks take down the mob with the lowest hp first while the casters do major ae damage and myself and my fellow shammie heal (we split the list and have the same kind of system where we have tanks in both halves etc) its very rare that we all end up dead.
And, if things do look like they are going to go pearshaped, I take a quick sprint out of the danger zone and then come back and rez the rest of them.

I'm level 24 with my shammie and its been a very very rare occurance when the whole group has got wiped out. The only time it happens is in The Cursed Tomb with the undead priestess or out in Musselpheim with the poxy fireants adding about a dozen to the 8 we're already fighting

There is no such thing as a bad class, only inexperienced people playing them and in those cases you should be offering constructive advice and not legging it to the hills and disbanding - there is nothing more irritating or rude than someone who just pisses off when a pull has gone wrong for one reason or another.

Make sure everyone knows what they are doing beforehand and you should have a good group and a good laugh.

 

[matax]

Originally posted by ldticp
in reply to this i would first say...why exactly are people such cowards? working out the best time to run when you see someone die?!!?

maybe i read teh posts here wrong but i don`t think so.
Myself ..if our group gets in trouble i use enrage then engage then shout RUN!!! that way at least only i die..doesn`t always work but more often than not it helps a lot.

also guys you`ll find most deaths occur after people start running..the no. of times I or my group have aggroed 4 or more purple mobs on a group of 8 and all looked like certain death and lived with only small losses!!

please guys get out of this silly notion of running at the first sign of trouble stick together you`ll live longer!

I think the only person who mentioned running was Brutallus and I read his post as meaning get out of (run away from) the group, not run away from the mobs

Agreed though Idticp, as a tank if I am about to die I shout to the rezzers to run and die trying to hold the aggro. From my low level noob experience of running away - you usually die anyway if things are that bad, so you might as well die letting the healers get away so they can come back to rez you (of course this can be difficult sometimes in dungeons!). Whether the healers listen is of course another thing

 

[Flimgoblin]

Groups with loads of healers will work......

groups with no healers can work too

Just have to change how and what you fight...

If you have no clerics then taking purples is going to be hard... but if you've got enough of the other stuff you could take lots of linked oranges for example...

Same applies if you have healers and no tanks...

Of course if you have a crap group then you're generally better soloing blues unless it's a fun crap group.