Magnus, Nic, a question

[Aiteal]

How do I remove my credit card details from your system?

Nothing personal, you guys are CM's and I'm sure you didn't take the decisions regarding the email address and deciding for customers if they want to give you money or not

But I don't want my credit card details stored in GoA's system, I'd rather use pay cards when I want to pay

So where is the option to remove my cards details, you know, like Amazon or Funcom etc have?

 

[Phantomby]

agreed, i would also like to remove my details from your system as i no longer have any desire to play and don't want to be "accidentally" billed.

 

[AngelHeal]

same

 

[Wai]

same here actually.

(I do remember in DAoC actually people quitting then a few months down the line being billed again obviously without consent... not saying it will happen here, but based on the fact the same mistakes are happening again its likely)

 

[Kami]

Agreed - my subs are paid up for a while and I can't even change the billing address to prevent billing.

 

[ford prefect]

Yes I think there needs to be an option to remove CC details from GOA's billing system completely.

 

[Naffets]

Just so we're clear on this, I'm pretty sure (90%) that legally, GOA are not allowed to keep your credit card details beyond any given contract. 1 month = contract, at the end of your subscription if you have don't renew set then they are breaking the law if they still have your details. (Not that GOA care about law)

Or at least, thats the way I remember it. (I'm no law expert though.)

 

[scorge]

Just so we're clear on this, I'm pretty sure (90%) that legally, GOA are not allowed to keep your credit card details beyond any given contract. 1 month = contract, at the end of your subscription if you have don't renew set then they are breaking the law if they still have your details. (Not that GOA care about law)

Or at least, thats the way I remember it. (I'm no law expert though.)

they can keep them for longer than that, depends if goa are actually storing the details or a third party are as a payment gateway, just google PCI standards

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

I agree with the original posted idea. This would be a good and sensible way to protect the customer.

Although there may have been cases where it was an accident, GOA is now fully aware of the issue. Should it continue, GOA can then be accused of negligence. If it continues for an unseemely amount of time then GOA can legitimately be accused of embezzlement, for this is actually what it becomes if they knowingly continue the practice of billing people without first informing them.

It would get a bit muddy. Cancellation notifactions would be need to be produced and GOA would need to produce evidence that after cancellation the customer had actively sought to renew, rather than GOA's HAL9000 deciding to just bill people.

Where GOA score is that the amount billed erroneously is in most cases so pitiful its not worth the individual persuing it. As mentioned on other threads already multiply that by a few thousand or more and you've covered a chunk of your staff salaries for a monnth.

Billing after cancellation has not happened to me but I am watching closely to see how GOA respond to this as will I'm sure many other people.

For anyone looking for advice on how to deal with online behaviour like this, you can start by looking up Met Fraud Alert - its fairly generic but it will give you contact numbers and addresses as a starting point for advice.

SOCA might be going a bit far, but they are the e-crime arm of the UK police and can put you on the right track to who you should be speaking to. Some of the stuff on their site is interesting reading in its own right.

If no joy from legal sources or you don't have the will or means to prosecute then of course there is the international media. Everything from Gamespot to the BBC. This is arguably the best way to hurt GOA as it only requires you stick to known and provable facts and make as many people aware of what is happening as possible. Get the BBC interested and you'll soon have Mark Jacobs screaming down the phone at Mz GOA CEO.

However, if you don't intend to follow through, I would strongly urge you not to waste these people's time.

I would also advise people who want to have a chance of some kind of comeback to not log on their accounts after the false billing. If you do log on, you don't have a leg to stand on as by doing so it can be shown you agreed to the implied contract. If you have already logged on after the supposed cancellation, then forget it, you may as well cry into your boots quietly. You might be angry and feel entitled to play but you undermine any case you may want to make. You have to make a judgement call about what you want to do.

---

A rather heavy post and it assumes that at least some of the people complaining about GOA are serious and not merely whining on forums for the sake of letting off steam. I'd imagine 95% of people complaining will just play WAR for the remainder of the billed period and then not ever have anything to do with GOA again.

All that said, I think GOA are only guilty of incompetence, not deliberate fraud and I'm sure they are working hard to make sure it does not happen again. As I said at the start, its only if it continues and can be shown to continue that GOA are getting into hot water.

Lastly, if you have been falsely billed after cancellation and have not logged on in the new billing period, I believe you are fully entitled to a complete refund from GOA. Whether you are able to get that is another matter. I suspect unless there is some other pressure (as mentioned above) you have very little chance of seeing that money back.

 

[scorge]

oh by the way you should know that you can claim the money back if you pay by credit card, that comes under the consumer credit act and the money is recovered by the issuer visa/mastercard etc.

if though you use a debit card to pay, the bank does not have to refund you, they usuall do, they do not have to though.

 

[Valdur]

agreed, i would also like to remove my details from your system as i no longer have any desire to play and don't want to be "accidentally" billed.

Same.

 

[Bahumat]

Just so we're clear on this, I'm pretty sure (90%) that legally, GOA are not allowed to keep your credit card details beyond any given contract. 1 month = contract, at the end of your subscription if you have don't renew set then they are breaking the law if they still have your details. (Not that GOA care about law)

Or at least, thats the way I remember it. (I'm no law expert though.)

 

[Zebolt]

Bahamut, it should be: I AM TEH LAWL! ;>

 

[NicGOA]

Good morning all.

I'll get back to you on this. First knee jerk reaction is to say that you can contact billing support for questions like this. But I will ask around and see what can be done.

 

[Aiteal]

Cheers Nic

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Good morning all.

I'll get back to you on this. First knee jerk reaction is to say that you can contact billing support for questions like this. But I will ask around and see what can be done.

Nic, bluntly put we've now seen two different stories that are clearly at odds with each other from two different CMs. First it was a bug, then it was a "convenience" thing.

Roo - "This is arguably the best way to hurt GOA as it only requires you stick to known and provable facts and make as many people aware of what is happening as possible."

The facts say that accidental or deliberate, what they did is still against both the basic tenets of UK contract law and the CCA. Doesn't matter that they're international as it's their responsibility to adhere to the local laws of the countries their customers are in.

I again point Nic and the other CM's to my long posts https://forums.freddyshouse.com/warhammer-308/233728-i-billed-after-cancelation-2.html#post3460275

Spin it all you want guys, there was either; a mistake of catastrophic proportions in the billing system that caused you to violate their legal rights in which case the responsibility is yours to refund the customer fully, OR it was a deliberate violation of the law by someone within your company in which case the responsibility is again yours to refund the customer fully.

I don't think anyone in the playerbase expects this to end with anything but a full refund of the ILLEGALLY (see my linked post as to why this is so) billed period(s).

 

[Raven]

Frankly I don't think they give a shit. Smash and grab followed by silence, those that still want to play will probably do so those that don't won't do anything about it.

Not to mention the hundreds of people that won't even notice for 6 months or so.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

The ethical way to fix this would probably be to kill the auto-renew flag on all subscriptions and force people that still want to play to re-subscribe.

 

[ford prefect]

The ethical way to fix this would probably be to kill the auto-renew flag on all subscriptions and force people that still want to play to re-subscribe.

I agree, it is the obvious solution and that could have been done 10 days ago, what bothers me is it wasn't.

Why put the auto renew flag on for everyone in the firstplace? Why not let them pay for another month and let them opt in to auto renew then if they want to?

 

[Aiteal]

Why put the auto renew flag on for everyone in the firstplace? Why not let them pay for another month and let them opt in to auto renew then if they want to?

I think we all know the answer to that
and the question
Why use a non-goa email address to tell us about it?

 

[NicGOA]

Just had a talk with our Billing CS department and my original knee-jerk reaction was correct. Please contact them with this and other matters related to billing issues.

As always, just because we can not answer a question on this topic doesn't mean we are ignoring it. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful in this matter.

 

[ford prefect]

Just had a talk with our Billing CS department and my original knee-jerk reaction was correct. Please contact them with this and other matters related to billing issues.

As always, just because we can not answer a question on this topic doesn't mean we are ignoring it. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful in this matter.

Nic, for better or worse you and Magnus are the public faces at GoA, and as the billing department is also ignoring questions on this subject, your responce is simply unacceptable.

This is an issue that is severely affecting the reputation of GoA as a company, and as a simple matter of goodwill, a public statement explaining the thinking behind this decision and what action is being taken to make amends to customers that have been affected by this issue, is the least that GoA can do for us, whether here or on the war-europe site.

 

[Calaen]

Regardless of the situation Nic and Magnus are merely here for the community, they will not have top level access to problems and solutions.

If he is telling you to speak to the billing department that is what he has been told to tell you to do.

Having them here telling you what little information they can is more of a benefit to not having them at all.

People telling him it is unacceptable isn't going to get anything done faster.

 

[ford prefect]

Regardless of the situation Nic and Magnus are merely here for the community, they will not have top level access to problems and solutions.

If he is telling you to speak to the billing department that is what he has been told to tell you to do.

Having them here telling you what little information they can is more of a benefit to not having them at all.

People telling him it is unacceptable isn't going to get anything done faster.

Perhaps not, but having contacted the billing department five times on this issue, and not having recieved a responce yet, it seems like poor advice.

You are correct in when you say they are both here for the community, and the billing issue has been a problem for many who are or would have been part of the community.

The hope would be that Nic and Magnus will take all of this feedback back to the management in the billing department and the management themselves in billing would give us some information on war-europe. Personally I don't think that is too much to ask, especially after 10 days.

 

[Aiteal]

Just had a talk with our Billing CS department and my original knee-jerk reaction was correct. Please contact them with this and other matters related to billing issues.

As always, just because we can not answer a question on this topic doesn't mean we are ignoring it. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful in this matter.

Not happy at all that GoA are storing my CC details without asking my permission like Amazon or Funcom for example do
Even unhappier that there is no easy way for me to remove my CC details from your system

 

[Belisar]

Nic, for better or worse you and Magnus are the public faces at GoA, and as the billing department is also ignoring questions on this subject, your responce is simply unacceptable.

This is an issue that is severely affecting the reputation of GoA as a company, and as a simple matter of goodwill, a public statement explaining the thinking behind this decision and what action is being taken to make amends to customers that have been affected by this issue, is the least that GoA can do for us, whether here or on the war-europe site.

I am not affected by this (so far) but I have to agree. This seems to be the source of a lot of annoyance and a non-response such as the one given just leads to more annoyance and frustration.

Are Mythic suffering from the same issue ?

There should be a formal response to this issue, perhaps not on these forums but on the war-europe website. Will people who want a refund get refunded ? If you turn off the auto renewal will it get turned on again ?

I appreciate commenting on individual circumstances is not right (or even possible) but these are simple and general questions and deserve a formal response somewhere.

Whilst I understand a GM's hands are tied when it comes to providing information, GOA seem to have a real lack of understanding on how to keep customers happy (or perhaps they just do not care).

I am sure others will say something similar and I hope it gets fed back to the powers that be.

 

[Gear]

If you turn off the auto renewal will it get turned on again ?

This is the worrying bit

 

[Naffets]

I really don't see there being a satisfactory result to any answer GOA give on this front, and thats not your (The customers) fault (I exclude myself from this as ill not return to the game).

The fact of the matter is GOA fucked up, tried to cover up with the best possible monetary gain. Mythic don't care about what we have to say, equal or better seems to equate to mushroom treatment (Fed shit and kept in the dark to those of you unawares).

This has left a bitter taste for many, and unfortunately I don't see any action being taken other than brushing it under a giant carpet.

I'm not saying you shouldn't complain, just don't hold your breath for action...

Oh and consider emailing mark.jacobs[at]ea.com (Unconfirmed email address, replace [a] with @)

 

[Phantomby]

Could somone please post up the contact details for the billing department at GOA.

i wish to contact them for the removal of my CC details and think this should be sticky'd for anyone trying to do the same or people who have had problems with being billed.

ty

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

So basically Nic, you're being gagged by the higher ups on this one.

I've managed to contact Mark Jacobs directly via a games industry networking website i'm a member of (long story), question is - will he reply?

Edit:Additional. Copied Ghislane Le Rhun Gautier in on the same e-mail via a different networking site. Based on their reluctance to make direct comments (one that i can find after 30 minutes of web-trawling after 10 years in that job!) to the public, i'm not hopeful on this one.

I've put the cat amongst the pigeons as best as possible on this one, lets hope something comes of it.