Loot rules on raids

[frogster]

"If you are not happy with the new rule, then leave the BG" - Most retarded thing i have ever heard in my time in DAoC.
Translated:
"I am the raid leader, i can change the rules anytime i see fit, as well giving the best items to my friends. If you dont agree with this, you can just throw away the last 2-3 hours effort that you have put in, and log, ensuring you dont get credit and have to do it all over again."
To the guy who stood by his principles and logged. Im sure that had something to do with the fact that you didnt need credit tho.

 

[raid]

I've never joined any MLraid because of loot, its just a nice bonus in case of getting lucky on roll... maybe thats why this rule change didn't bother me the slightest bit yesterday especially when its clear it was not done to gain any personal benefit. I was there to get 7.10 done and was happy I got it. However I can imagine it would have been really annoying if I needed a drop for my template or smth.

As a matter of principle I agree it was a mistake to change rules that late and giving a minor bonus to his roll would have been much more reasonable "surprise reward". Still after all Kalthorines intention was only good.

 

[Circulous]

I'm sorry, but some damn newbie doesn't tell me to shut up, tho if tried, fail miserably

"Damn newbie" - typical arrogant reply from a PE toon. Oh wait, i forgot that all players except PE and maybe FL and AoD are "damn newbies" for you wannabe elitest.

I've lead countless raids and what I know from experience is that you DO NOT go and change the rules or give out drops without asking people on raid cg/bg.

Maybe i m blind but Kalthorine leads lots of ffa raids and i have rarely seen u running some. And guild/ally raids doesnt count for me.

You re right that it was stupid to change the rules during the raid BUT he has admitted that this was a big mistake and he has my respect for that. Most ppl will never admit that.

 

[SoulFly]

"Damn newbie" - typical arrogant reply from a PE toon. Oh wait, i forgot that all players except PE and maybe FL and AoD are "damn newbies" for you wannabe elitest.

Maybe i m blind but Kalthorine leads lots of ffa raids and i have rarely seen u running some. And guild/ally raids doesnt count for me.

You re right that it was stupid to change the rules during the raid BUT he has admitted that this was a big mistake and he has my respect for that. Most ppl will never admit that.

Arrogance, nah, just the plain truth that you're far from being a fully learnt player ;( By the way, me being in the top alb RVR guild has dang all to do with this, thought you would spice your post up with that fact tho, as you've nothing else to back what you said, on ^^. I don't consider any guild elite at the moment, well NP gets pretty damn close (lickety lick ). There are good guilds yea, but none at the moment, on this server anyway, since every guild lacks something.

So what, yea I consider myself being Elite from some aspects, but I'm in no way an ELITIST, which are completely different things. If I wanted to be an elitist, I wouldn't even have to try to be one, since it wouldn't even prove out to be a challenge.

Only ran a few TOA raids, since the lack of interest in TOA. Pre-TOA, have ran and been on loads and loads of raids.

Btw, as to add to the first post I made to this thread:

I was muchly affected because I had friends on the raid, even if I wasn't:

 

[Dreami]

"Damn newbie" - typical arrogant reply from a PE toon. Oh wait, i forgot that all players except PE and maybe FL and AoD are "damn newbies" for you wannabe elitest.

Lewl

 

[Kalthorine]

I'm not here to whine, but more likely to give you a view on someone that logged (me in this case). Basically what you say there about being materialistic and wanting items on a raid is not the reason at all that I logged. You can ask lots of people that know me and they can all tell you that I'm maybe one of the most selfless people in this game and always help others out without gaining anything myself.

...

This is just to give you a view that not all people just think out of greed. And last if I was rude to not PM you when I left to talk about something... Well you were clear enough to me and I made my choice. I'm not really one to make a fuss about things that happen ingame, because they happen and I move on to something else. So as it seemed you didn't want my help anymore, I went to do something in real life instead.

Thanks for taking the time to post clearly, reasonably and rationally like this Dahr... I appreciate your reasons, and can't say that if I were in your position I might not have done exactly the same thing.

Aside from making the decision, my haste in posting "leave if you don't like the rule" was probably my SECOND biggest mistake. What I meant was that I would understand if anyone felt strongly enough that they wanted to leave, rather than hastily making it sound like some kind of ultimatum. I should also have taken time to make it clearer that I would have expected to be informed if they chose (as you did) to do so. Because I didn't make it clear that I would have liked people to inform me, I really cannot complain that they did. Lotsa lessons to learn from this for me, I think

Time to start building a few fences I think... Typhon FFA Loot Raid imminent!

 

[Escape]

A common mistake on FFA raids is the raid leader(s) assuming the loot belongs to them. In principle, it belongs to everyone on the raid until the lotto. Sure, the raid leader puts in alot of work and has a stressfull evening... but it's still a public raid. Exotic loot distribution should only be used for private raids.

If someone on the raid needs to be rewarded, that prize should come from the raid leader's pocket - not from the raid's loot which he's been entrusted to carry. To give from there without consulting the raid is theft, imo.

 

[Lotheric]

"Maybe i m blind but Kalthorine leads lots of ffa raids and i have rarely seen u running some. And guild/ally raids doesnt count for me.

Pfft. SF was teh king of Sidi when he took over the raids back then. He did not just lead many of them, he lead em very good too!

 

[Derric]

Bubbles!! Biiiiiiiiig shiny bubbles!

 

[Linnet]

A common mistake on FFA raids is the raid leader(s) assuming the loot belongs to them.

I think the more common mistake is a raid leader assuming that their main and sole responsibility is zerg wrangling everyone through the raid for credit and that the loot is an incidental issue.

As anyone who does it will find out (probably sooner than later) the raid leader's job absolutely does include sorting out loot distribution. So my advice is be prepared to put as much effort and thought into that as into the rest of the raid -- don't think it is something you can deal with offhand, even if loot isn't your primary goal.

The raid ain't over until the lotto is done and the fat lady sings. Oh and make sure to assign at least 5 possible loot carriers for ML9

(Don't worry Kal, it's a learning experience.)

 

[Revz]

I was totally unaware that anyone was on the Raid for purely materialistic reasons

:worthy:

 

[Xeanor]

:worthy:

Agree.

Stupidity at its best.

 

[toxii]

server has been up and running for more than 6 months than some people play here really , so if i was you i'd actually get a clue about who soulfly is and then start saying totally mindless bs about him really

 

[Noyia]

Pfft. SF was teh king of Sidi when he took over the raids back then. He did not just lead many of them, he lead em very good too!

i ve been on countless sidi raids and tbh i think SF was TEH sidi-raid leader
not once wiped (at least on the ones i ve been)

cheers SF

to the point now .. I ve been on that ML7 raid.. was so pissed off when rules changed didnt log tho since i needed credit and didnt actually "need" the cloak (would of sold it if i won it on lotto). : As for u Kalthorine apologies totally accepted. Was naive thinkin in the way u did imho, but I apreciate u posting that on the forums since as some1 above said (cba goin back to /quote it) most ppl wouldnt bother doin so.

 

[Esselinithia]

Kalthorine: I think your decision is clear, and even, if the special role of the people would be just "birthday" I would agree with you and would be a bit angry at GReaper, why?

The items and plats in the game are purely virtual things, the only thing that isn't virtual and has any real value in the game are friends you make. If you have friends and fellow players you show you care for them. At birthdays you tend to have parties and tends to give gifts right? I think the same goes for most daoc friends. Would you give an expensive item for birthday? Would you help buying house for birthday? would you do anything like that on birthday? I think you wouldn't. For many reason: You would try to keep gifts at a sane level and leave out all possible competition. But if you make a raid as birthday present, and people join the raid to help as their birthday present you all still have fun together, and you spent a few hours having fun to celbrate someones birthday, you haven't lost anything, and you have won something in terms of friendship. In a such scenario would you roll at lotto at all? Would you say "I came to your birthday party to get a fair share of gifts and presents"? I highly doubt it, and it is how adults should think about it.

Yet you get XP, possibly ML XP, and even if a raid is designed as a birthday presesent (where every item would be a present for the friend) no friend would take every item so you would still have a chance to get some loot, which would be more important than any Flowing Antalya Shawl because it came from a such party, and it should have more value.

I rather go to ten raids without getting loot with people I enjoy playing with and I know as nice people, than get to a raid full of offensive kids who have no respect and don't care for anyones fun but for their purely virtual profit. Something which they will lose quickly anyway.

 

[Esselinithia]

The person who got this special treatment didn't even do anything special on the raid - it was merely his birthday. As I seethis quote conflicts with the explanation, and I think GPreaper never said sorry, when he found the real reason and knew he hurt someone wrongly on his birthday. And with knowing what happened I think Kalthorine made the best possible decision by changing loot rules. Some people lost their fair chances credit, ML xp, etc. for helping, saying they shouldn't have some compensation for helping is selfish, and I think Kalthorine was right to expect most grown up persons will accept that.

You whine "I wasted my stuff on just other loot, ML XP, possible credits, having fun with time" and they shouldn't get an item for helping us and wasting their time to get NO ML XP, no possible credits, they had no chance to stay with their friends, for YOU.

Also some say. Why don't just give a mod? As you see the lotto was done at Typhoon, where it was possible to redo Typhoon, right? How they would get back at lotto after they got the suicide group role to help YOU? Oh, so they can't be on lotto so mods for them are useless. You either move lotto and ruin the whole raids chance to kill Typhoon again and again for more loot and they lose far more than a single item or say the raid lasts as long as there is enough people to kill Typhoon or till you get wiped... Others who can't stay lose everything. Or give out a single item they might like.

To be fair with the ones who helped and made a sacrifice Kalthorine had to make a change, and had to make a change with the least impact.

 

[frogster]

Esselinithia:

Eh? Why are you going on about Birthdays for? The birthday remark was refering to an ML3 raid? Oo

You can preach on with your holier than thou hippy share the wealth attitude all you like.
You are either incredibly stupid, 12, or just very naive if you think the world is such a happy do-goody place, and that anyone to the contrary is "an offensive kid". People went on that raid purely for materialistic reasons, and in doing so spread little bundles of joy to the world, by helping those who went purely for their selfish 'arrogant child' ml credit ways!!!

Wake up and smell what you are shoveling....

 

[GReaper]

I have to agree with Mr frogster and say...

EH!?

 

[Ilum]

omg its teh nee

 

[willowywicca]

The person who got this special treatment didn't even do anything special on the raid - it was merely his birthday. As I seethis quote conflicts with the explanation, and I think GPreaper never said sorry, when he found the real reason and knew he hurt someone wrongly on his birthday. And with knowing what happened I think Kalthorine made the best possible decision by changing loot rules. Some people lost their fair chances credit, ML xp, etc. for helping, saying they shouldn't have some compensation for helping is selfish, and I think Kalthorine was right to expect most grown up persons will accept that.

...

Oh, so they can't be on lotto so mods for them are useless.

The birthday incident and the sacrificing to move katorii incident are separate. one was on ml3, the other was a previous ml7 raid.

As for a mod being useless.. the person can just ask someone to roll on their behalf using their mod bonus (or the raidleader can do it etc..)

Anyway, the one where 2 people ended up missing credit (through no fault of their own) for helping the ml7 raid when katorii was at Flames, they did deserve some reward yes as they had sacrificed their own credit so that the rest of the raid could progress.. the more recent case of someone performing the task of pulling katorii (a task which no one else was even given the chance of performing, and which is not particularily difficult if you know how to pan your camera and are patient) was wrong to reward by giving an item (even giving a small mod bonus would be wrong imo since I still maintain that it's easy to do, might as well reward people for taunting mobs properly off healers too or something ^^ ), as kalthorine has admitted, and well, hopefully he and others won't make similar mistakes again

 

[Esselinithia]

Esselinithia:

Eh? Why are you going on about Birthdays for? The birthday remark was refering to an ML3 raid? Oo

You can preach on with your holier than thou hippy share the wealth attitude all you like.
You are either incredibly stupid, 12, or just very naive if you think the world is such a happy do-goody place, and that anyone to the contrary is "an offensive kid". People went on that raid purely for materialistic reasons, and in doing so spread little bundles of joy to the world, by helping those who went purely for their selfish 'arrogant child' ml credit ways!!!

Wake up and smell what you are shoveling....

It is refering to the incident here. I think if someone is stupid 12 that is you. I think if you want to have any friends you care for them, and go and see other games and on a few other servers, and not one raiding community has raids as birthday presents. Of course they are announced in time, and they are surprisingly popular. Why? Because people know it is just a game. If you have a new artifact? Will that make you a "bigger kid on the block"? No it wont. If you make 2 new friends who will stay with you even outside of the game and help when you need it, will that make a change? Yes it will. Start growing up, and instead of chasing virtual treasture that has NO wealth start to get friends and other real wealth. Most people doesn't have to compesate for their minority complex with "bigger loot they have on their characters".

Not announcing the purpose of a raid an lotto rules in time is a possible problem. Being rude and not caring for others is another problem. And the later is much worse. If you are playing because you think artifacts will make you a bigger kid, and going to the newest MMORPG and "winning" makes you bigger kid, you better grow up. If you play to have fun, spend time with friends earn new friends, these chances at "winning" becomes highly unimportant.

The moment you play not because you enjoy it, but to make you bigger is the time when you forgot what games are about. If you don't play for fun, don't belong to a community to have friends, but think you want to be bigger with virtual artifacts which you will lose when you move with trend, or when you "have to roll a new character" because you don't like changes in a patch makes you look even less than you were without your arti.

If you seen community on a few other servers even in USA, etc. you see that some communities have raids at all birthdays, and when people cancell other raids to go to birthday events of their friends, that shows how it should work. Not because going to others raid is holy or a good deed: But because it makes the community work, and it makes fun.

 

[Esselinithia]

The birthday incident and the sacrificing to move katorii incident are separate. one was on ml3, the other was a previous ml7 raid.

I see, question on the birthday event was it announced in time? Or that was a surprise? The pulling and losing credit incident is something you can or can't agree to, but it depends on the situation. The other event: I think if the birthday is announced at the start of the raid, that is better. If it is announced when the raid got announced first: It is even better. Yet many people would simply ignore that

Announcing later is a problem (I agree on it: Things should be announced in time so people can decide if they want to come or not), but I think if we have a birthday raid for a friend and it is announced in time that should be ok. Why? Everyone can ask about lotto rules when they join the raid, and if they like the person having the raid it is a nice birthday event. Not because of the loot, but because you see a whole zerg coming to celebrate your birthday and it is a very nice sight Of course birthday raids are best on Gaheris from USA edition.

 

[Corran]

I see, question on the birthday event was it announced in time? Or that was a surprise? The pulling and losing credit incident is something you can or can't agree to, but it depends on the situation. The other event: I think if the birthday is announced at the start of the raid, that is better. If it is announced when the raid got announced first: It is even better. Yet many people would simply ignore that

Announcing later is a problem (I agree on it: Things should be announced in time so people can decide if they want to come or not), but I think if we have a birthday raid for a friend and it is announced in time that should be ok. Why? Everyone can ask about lotto rules when they join the raid, and if they like the person having the raid it is a nice birthday event. Not because of the loot, but because you see a whole zerg coming to celebrate your birthday and it is a very nice sight Of course birthday raids are best on Gaheris from USA edition.

You completely missing the point.. All this thread is really about is that you set lotto rules BEFORE the raid begins. Not 2hours in and then decide you want to change them. People didnt go on a raid to help someone get a bday present, they didnt go on raid expecting to have loot they went to try get just handed away for no reason after spending 2hrs on a raid helping because they were told they could roll for anything that dropped.


If you want a bday raid for someone to get them gifts sure. Just say when you getting people "this is so can get person x a good item. this will not be rolled for"

If you want to rewards someone help in raid just say at START "person x will pick item they want and not roll for it"

If something comes to light in the middle/end of raid you DO NOT change the rules. If you feel you should reward someone then you ASK the rest of the BG. Any complaints about it and the rules stay the same. If ALL agree then go ahead and change them. You got to remember, you dont own the loot as a raid leader. You merely holding onto it for the bg whom as a group own it till lotto is done and then ownership goes to the particular person that won it. Till then no single person in the bg has right to claim it as their own without fair chance for others.

 

[GReaper]

As Corran pointed out, the main reason for this thread was due to a raid leader changing the rules in the middle of a raid and giving an ultimatum - if you don't like it then leave.

However there was another point, that allowing people to preselect loot in such a raid is bad as well. Everyone is a part of the raid, all those who attend are important. Anyone on the raid should have a fair chance at getting the loot they want, a raid leader should not select the best loot for himself just because he has lead the raid - nor should he allow someone else to do so either.

You make it sound as if the ML3 raid was organised for someones birthday, it was not. It is a typical example of a leader deciding to allow someone to preselect loot over everyone else, even though he had done very little to deserve it. I felt the same thing happened on the ML7 raid, someone does a trivial job and gets to preselect loot.

Is it fair? I certainly think not.

 

[Esselinithia]

GReaper: You say there are 2 point.

1st: To me the raid rules should be announced before raid starts is a rule I agree with, except if there is an unexpected event, and the group can agree with it. I think preselects in the mentioned case (ML7 one) can be done in a different way: If they came to help without interest they can have a choice from the less important items, Something they can keep as a small token of gratitude but doesn't hurt the raid people. I think if they came to help without demands for such they listen to the group and make a wise choice that isn't abusive, after the raid it can be discussed. So they get something for their work, but it remains acceptable. The main items should be lottoed as normal. Some good way to have a solution for unexpected events: Say, the best ROGs or some smaller items are in a pool the Raid leader can distribute without Lotto, the rest of the items (including named items, scrolls, remains, artis) are up for lotto / other loot rules can determine their place.

Your 2nd point: No preselect. I think preselects are normal in MANY cases, including times when you start a raid to help someone or a birthday present, so going out against this practice is bad. If raid rules are known before start of raid and everyone can make an intelligent decision, prselection rights are good. In many raids held as birthday presents tends to have a bit different rules: The raid with all the items are birthday present, yet if the player doesn't want all the items what he doesn't wants get lottoed normally. And noone complains?

Why: Because it isn't important to know what you get, it is important to be treated fairly and have a chance to make intelligent decisions, where you know how the raid will work. Why? Because it is about respecting friends. If raid leader decides for a birthday present, you can speak with him, but posting the incident hurts the recipient, and that isn't the best. It is this easy. You are grown up and can decide, if you have information. If you don't have a chance to know how the raid / lotto will work that is a different problem.