Loot rules on raids

[GReaper]

This is something I'd like to be sorted in advance of a raid.

Kalthorine's ML7 Raid tonight is an example of what I'm seeing more often. The raid leader decides that someone in the battlegroup should have first pick of any item they want. If you don't like the decision made and disagree with it, you can leave the battlegroup which you've helped with just as much as everyone else - and you'll be losing credit if you need it.

I remember this happening before on an ML3 raid. The person who got this special treatment didn't even do anything special on the raid - it was merely his birthday. My birthday is on the 26th May next year, can I reserve some loot on a raid please?

I'm quite disappointed in the leaders of raids who are doing this. The reward for people helping is either credit if they need the encounter, master level experience if they're helping others, and a fair chance at getting the loot which they may want. Your reward as a leader should be the knowledge that you've helped a load of people in the game with their master level.

I feel sorry for the people who are helping out on these raids. By bringing more people to the raid it increases the chances of your success, as well as reducing the to-hit so the raid goes faster overall.

I'm not a greedy person, I don't go to every raid trying to claim every piece of loot possible even though I won't use it. Could we please try and make loot rules fair on raids please? Please try and give the loot rules of your raid before you start (preferably in your forum post), so everyone knows what to expect.

Thanks.

 

[Invisibul]

damn @ ur sig lol, do u do anything else other than play daoc?

 

[willowywicca]

At the very least tell people in advance of the bloody raid.. we had a person in group who had only come along to roll for antyala shawl if it were to drop.. this decision that someone had first pick of loot for doing a simple task was only revealed 2 hours into the raid. So that person then logged, having wasted 2 hours of his life.

 

[Jenkz]

Raidleaders need to explicitly state the loot rules in the first post of the raid announcement thread. That way all is clear, and people (who dont require credit) can decide whether or not to go on the raid beforehand.

 

[Graendel]

Good point Greaper. I had this problem on my last ML7-raid. In order to move the bugged Katorii (no GM was on) we sent a suicide group with SoS in. Well, we succeeded and the full raid got past. However, two people on that suicide squad auto-released before we could rezz.

And so, I made the executive decision to let those two have first pick in lotto because there was no way we could (or would) get past Katorii again etc. And sorry, I wasn't coldhearted to say ' Sorry, you were stupid to follow my order and sui, better luck next time. '

I don't know if it was the right thing to do. When I've run ML raids the aim has always been to get credit for people. Therefore I honestly don't pay that much attention to the loot. I definitely think the situation is different if you announce a mere farm raid. Getting credit or not on such a thing would of course then be secondary.

Then again, how am I to know why people come along? And who am I to redo rules?

 

[starr]

As I understood it wasn't predetermined that the helper in question would be able to come or not.

As it happens he did and the raid leader felt he deserved something for his efforts, he didn't know he was getting anything and had come all that way just to help with one step. I'm sure if this had been planned in advance it would have been posted in advance.

I don't begrudge him this at all but then I'm not a greedy sob. If someone gives me a lift I give them petrol money.

If it's such a simple task then why do you never see farm raids for it? and secondly why don't you form one and preclaim the cloak?

The answer is it isn't a simple task at all and I've seen several raids fail at that point.

Tbh I heard all your arguments on the raid and they just sounded like "givf givf givf"

 

[willowywicca]

If it's such a simple task then why do you never see farm raids for it? and secondly why don't you form one and preclaim the cloak?

The answer is it isn't a simple task at all and I've seen several raids fail at that point.

Tbh I heard all your arguments on the raid and they just sounded like "givf givf givf"

Pulling katorii and her snakes is a separate task to that of killing typhon. typhon has massive AF, you need large numbers of people to be able to damage him at all ( or a silly amount of theurgs), katorii is easily farmable by a solid fg, just that she doesn't drop very much of value (a belt with dex cap which is sorta decent for scouts, but not that uber).. yes many raids have died there.. that is because it is hard for a zerg to avoid katorii, it is *not* as hard to do when solo

And actually I was mostly upset for my groupmate who left cos of it, I don't particularily need loot myself (don't even need the cloak at all anyway ) since I can easily afford buying any of it later from whoever wins the roll. s'not like money is tough to come by since toa

However it would be an easy matter for kalth to have mentioned it at the start of the raid rather than waiting 2 hours to say it.

 

[Kahland]

Besides after graendels ml7 raid where bikt got antalya shawl. If there's gonna be rewards like that in the future, i think ANYONE with common sense wouldnt give a shit for ml cred, better to go for a cloak worth 30p++ :>


.

<Raidleader> So, who's up for moving katorii today?
/me watches half of the raid jump into the maze

 

[Alan]

If the loot rules are pasted on the forums before the raid Great

If the loot rules are announced in the BG after the start time annoucned for the raid then Fair Enough as if you disagree you can just not bother starting

If the loot rules are changed during hte raid, then the raid leader should seek aproval from those on the raid and offer the chance to PM him/her in private - if any disagreements cant be resolved then the loot rules shouldnt change.

IMO of course

In the end if your unhappy with a raid leader - dont sign up to any of their riads.

 

[Case]

I seem to remember this happening before to someone I know very well..now who could that be..

Saying to people, say now if you don`t agree..but if you don`t agree you can leave raid is not an option IMO thats bullshit rules. So someone wasted 2 hours to get a chance at an item their friends complain you say ok everyone who disagree`s you can leave aswell wasting all their time also? What a pile of crap I`d expect more from the people making these raids.

One suggestion I`ve used before is a 250 mod for the person involved to any item he/she wishes untill they win something, it`s not perfect but a hell of a lot better than no chance at all for people who dedicated their time also to ensure your raid was successful.

 

[Bubble]

totaly agree with you greaper
If i wasn't out drinking and i attended the raid with a hope of rolling for the cloak(like alot of people) and it was given away i'd be pretty pissed off too. If the raid leader tells people at the begining of the raid this sort of thing would be avoided.
Funny thing was bikt selling the cloak almost asap on the trade forums...kinda took the piss

 

[Bloodhunter]

This is something I'd like to be sorted in advance of a raid.

Kalthorine's ML7 Raid tonight is an example of what I'm seeing more often. The raid leader decides that someone in the battlegroup should have first pick of any item they want. If you don't like the decision made and disagree with it, you can leave the battlegroup which you've helped with just as much as everyone else - and you'll be losing credit if you need it.

I remember this happening before on an ML3 raid. The person who got this special treatment didn't even do anything special on the raid - it was merely his birthday. My birthday is on the 26th May next year, can I reserve some loot on a raid please?

I'm quite disappointed in the leaders of raids who are doing this. The reward for people helping is either credit if they need the encounter, master level experience if they're helping others, and a fair chance at getting the loot which they may want. Your reward as a leader should be the knowledge that you've helped a load of people in the game with their master level.

I feel sorry for the people who are helping out on these raids. By bringing more people to the raid it increases the chances of your success, as well as reducing the to-hit so the raid goes faster overall.

I'm not a greedy person, I don't go to every raid trying to claim every piece of loot possible even though I won't use it. Could we please try and make loot rules fair on raids please? Please try and give the loot rules of your raid before you start (preferably in your forum post), so everyone knows what to expect.

Thanks.

whine...you came there for credit/mlxp...you got it, so shush nerd and be happy

 

[Kalthorine]

OK no excuses here because what is said on this thread is correct... the loot rules would have been mentioned at the start of the Raid if that is when they were decided. All I will do here is make it clear what happened, and my thinking behind it.

In the previous 2 of the 3 ML7 Raids I have been on, I have been in groups that got wiped by Katorii, and it is an encounter that I do not like and I knew in advance that I might need help with. Although I knew that the individual who I ended up granting a free drop to was on the Raid, it was not until the Katorii encounter itself that I found out they had come along purely to help with that encounter and for no promise of a reward of any sort. This was where I made what in hindsight was a bad judgement call regarding promising them first choice in the lotto, and after making that promise I forced myself into a corner from which I could not extricate myself. It was most certainly NOT something that had been decided beforehand, and I would CERTAINLY have said as such here on FH or before setting off if it had been my intention. I announced it to bg chat as soon as the decision had been made, and I didn't think for one minute that it would cause so much ill feeling as I had assumed that everyone was on the Raid for ML XP or ML Credit and that items were a secondary consideration. And I would never consider ever making decisions and rules that would benefit myself... after all, I led the Raid for no reason other than to give others a chance to get ML7 or ML XP - I did not need either of those. Sure it would have been nice to get a chance to roll for the Flowing Antalya Shawl, which is part of my paladin template, but getting as many people as possible to ML7 was the main aim.

The problem I had (and still do) is that I don't place much value on items in the game, and erroneously assume that others feel the same way. If you don't believe me, ask the individual on another Raid I led this week and who I gave an item worth 25+ platinum just because they had said that it was an item they liked. I guess I should be more willing to acknowledge that acquisition of items is something that a lot of people take very seriously, and I do realise that as a result of poor decision making I am in the position of having to apologise unreservedly for not recognising that as a driving factor for some people attending the Raid on Friday night.

Having said all of that, I do feel I need to say something else - and I know in advance that I am asking to be flamed for these views. Basically, I was personally rather disappointed by the "throwing the toys out of the pram" attitude of some who logged immediately after I made the announcement simply because the only reason they were on the Raid was to get a chance to roll for the best item in the lotto at the end. Firstly, I was totally unaware that anyone was on the Raid for purely materialistic reasons as no one had given their reasons as such either in the Raid thread or in bg chat at any point. And secondly, to log without even a pm to the Raid Leader to express their intention or even their displeasure strikes me as the height of rudeness, and is also unfair on others on the Raid who might be relying on their abilities. Thirdly, maybe I was naive in thinking that people would be sufficiently grateful to someone who gave up an entire evening to help out with absolutely no promise of any reward, rather than judge the success of the Raid based solely on their own desires.

So, do I regret upsetting people with my decision in hindsight? Of course I do, as I would never set out to deliberately cause distress to anyone in game. Did I dupe people onto the Raid under false pretences? No I did not - as I said, the decision to give something to the character who only came to help out was made as soon as I realised that was why they were there, and was announced in bg chat immediately. Might I make a similar decision again in the future? Well... I have to admit that I might, and people need to be aware of that if signing up to any more of my Raids. I am sorry that my decision ruined anyone's Raid experience, but I am not sorry that a character who in my opinion (as Raid Leader) deserved a reward for their own selfless actions actually got one. It is just a pity that on this occasion the way I went about rewarding them in a way that, in hindsight, was totally unfair to the rest of the Raid. Sorry guys and gals

 

[Ginius]

My respect to the person who left the raid cause of changed rule. Lot's moaned but all other stayed. I remember a Sidi raid where I got a free item with my Sorc cause I did the pulling job. One other said it's not ok, cause I did my job like (nearly) all othere did their. And he was right. So I rolled with him and he won and I gave him the Item (Sorcboots). That was my decission.

Today I was thinking about leaving or saying "leave that BG if you think that rule isn't ok, I make another BG for the rest of the raid". But that imo isn't fair for the raidleader who did all the work here and on first steps. And not fair to all other who can't roll for loot from first steps then. Pulling snakes from Katorii isn't realy hard. I lead ML 7 raid for myself. That thing with the 2 suiciders for the ML success plays in another league. That weights much higher and I think no one would have moaned today.

And all this bu//sh|t about make your own raid with own rules is crap. It was in the middle of the raid. And if you tell someone to join your raid but they can't roll for this or that item, you won't get much ppl to follow you. Then they will start a raid for themselves, cause they know it before they did half of the work.

The raidleader did a good job today, the raid was a full success. /bow to you. But please don't change rules in the middle of raid. You saw how people reacted.

 

[Kalthorine]

But please don't change rules in the middle of raid. You saw how people reacted.

Indeed Ginius. What I did was wrong... I made a bad call, and can only apologise to others who I upset because of it. There was no malice or unfairness intended, but lack of evil intent does not in itself excuse a thoughtless action. I have outlined my reasoning in my above post, which hopefully at least some people will appreciate, but the fact remains that I screwed up... badly. Sorry to all concerned.

 

[Ginius]

Nice that you answered here and gave your reasons. Perhaps some people will understand you better now. And I will be glad to join your next raids, cause you are a good leader.

 

[willowywicca]

And secondly, to log without even a pm to the Raid Leader to express their intention or even their displeasure strikes me as the height of rudeness, and is also unfair on others on the Raid who might be relying on their abilities.

Erm, how can you consider it the height of rudeness, when they just did exactly what you told them to do? You said if you don't like it, leave the BG (or words to that effect).. surely you weren't expecting people to leave the BG but continue helping on the raid anyway..? (since the lack of communication from leaving the BG would impair their performance in the raid, thus if they still truely wanted to help they would have to remain in the BG) The only thing they could do was log or suicide out. You never said "if you don't like it lets have a chat and sort things out", it was a simple "accept it or get out of here" instruction you gave. To look down on people who only did what you left them the option of doing is rather laughable.

 

[Ezeine]

whine...you came there for credit/mlxp...you got it, so shush nerd and be happy

Why aren't you a constructive git.

As for the topic, changing rules during the raid isn't very good choice imo. Even tho ML raids are for the credit, there's always a change someone is coming for just the items.

 

[Xeanor]

I've pulled Katorii mobs like 6 times now with different classes including a paladin.

Where's my reward?

Sounds like a kid getting a lollypop for its first 10 steps walk.

I've even led ML1-10.... think i got a star of destiny somewhere.

(PS: if you die on katorii, you deserved to die)

 

[SoulFly]

Sucky. Glad I didn't come. Wow rocked, you didn't.

 

[Circulous]

Wow rocked, you didn't.

Kalthorine leads lots of raids and always gives a helping hand on others when they need it even if he doesnt benefit from it. And he has the right to do mistakes, what he did yesterday from my point of view. But he admitted that it was a wrong decision giving that person the right for a preclaim and my respect for that - I know many ppl who would never admit that they did anything wrong.

I hate ppl who give stupid comments even they werent affected.

So stfu.

Sucky. Glad I didn't come.

We were glad too.


@Kalth

If u really want a bonus for ppl who doing a "special" job there are better ways. Maybe a little mod for lotto or something like that but preclaiming from all drops isnt fair. And announcing that in advance ofc

Personally i m very glad the Antalya Shawl didnt drop

 

[Circulous]

Little note.

Typhon respawnt after 10 mins when we just started lotto and there was a chance of quick 2nd kill with full ffa and no preclaim but from almost 50 ppl hardly 2fg stayed.

 

[Wazkyr]

Did he ever go down a 2. time?

 

[Kalthorine]

If u really want a bonus for ppl who doing a "special" job there are better ways. Maybe a little mod for lotto or something like that but preclaiming from all drops isnt fair. And announcing that in advance ofc

Agree 100%, as I indicated earlier. Stupid decision of mine that - and I just want to be absolutely sure that everyone knows I am happy to take full responsibility for making a bad judgement call during the Raid, but that the rule was not decided before the Raid started. Of course, making a decision like I did in the middle of the Raid was just as bad, if not worse, than having a "secret" rule to begin with and only admitting it later. Only so many times I can apologise, but I am happy to continue to do so until people realise that I am actually sorry for what happened.

 

[Kalthorine]

Did he ever go down a 2nd time?

Nope... there was a Call to Arms for the Excal Relic Raid just before we were to start attacking him again, so we had to call it a night

 

[Thadius]

I dont see why everyone is moaning. Kalthorine ran a nice raid, over in a few hours.

 

[Dahr]

The problem I had (and still do) is that I don't place much value on items in the game, and erroneously assume that others feel the same way. If you don't believe me, ask the individual on another Raid I led this week and who I gave an item worth 25+ platinum just because they had said that it was an item they liked. I guess I should be more willing to acknowledge that acquisition of items is something that a lot of people take very seriously, and I do realise that as a result of poor decision making I am in the position of having to apologise unreservedly for not recognising that as a driving factor for some people attending the Raid on Friday night.

Having said all of that, I do feel I need to say something else - and I know in advance that I am asking to be flamed for these views. Basically, I was personally rather disappointed by the "throwing the toys out of the pram" attitude of some who logged immediately after I made the announcement simply because the only reason they were on the Raid was to get a chance to roll for the best item in the lotto at the end. Firstly, I was totally unaware that anyone was on the Raid for purely materialistic reasons as no one had given their reasons as such either in the Raid thread or in bg chat at any point. And secondly, to log without even a pm to the Raid Leader to express their intention or even their displeasure strikes me as the height of rudeness, and is also unfair on others on the Raid who might be relying on their abilities. Thirdly, maybe I was naive in thinking that people would be sufficiently grateful to someone who gave up an entire evening to help out with absolutely no promise of any reward, rather than judge the success of the Raid based solely on their own desires.

I'm not here to whine, but more likely to give you a view on someone that logged (me in this case). Basically what you say there about being materialistic and wanting items on a raid is not the reason at all that I logged. You can ask lots of people that know me and they can all tell you that I'm maybe one of the most selfless people in this game and always help others out without gaining anything myself.

The thing just is, I went to your ml7 raid to tag along with some friends, help them out and keep them company with the bonus of having a go at any item that would drop for spending my time there (read from the raid rules before they started) and no other reward whatsoever. Now when you said for anyone who didn't agree to that rule change to leave the battlegroup, it was not greed that made me leave, it was the principle that made me leave. Hearing such a thing mid raid just isn't nice when you've come along just to help everyone out as well while not being promised anything in return, but a fair chance at rolling at any item that might drop.

This is just to give you a view that not all people just think out of greed. And last if I was rude to not PM you when I left to talk about something... Well you were clear enough to me and I made my choice. I'm not really one to make a fuss about things that happen ingame, because they happen and I move on to something else. So as it seemed you didn't want my help anymore, I went to do something in real life instead.

 

[Frozenheart]

I didn't go on this raid, had a pre-planned rvr guild night, altho i was tempted to go and help out seeing Kalthorine was leading it. He has always been a fair leader, and helped out on alot of raids. He admits to making one mistake, he never stole a camp, ran off with loot or basically fecked anyone over on purpose, he said sorry, surely that is enough?

I have seen alot worse ingame and alot less whine about it so we should maybe remember how good a leader he is, how many ppl he has helped and carry on with those thoughts rather than omg! kalth changed the rules in a raid!

Love Frosty

 

[SoulFly]

Kalthorine leads lots of raids and always gives a helping hand on others when they need it even if he doesnt benefit from it. And he has the right to do mistakes, what he did yesterday from my point of view. But he admitted that it was a wrong decision giving that person the right for a preclaim and my respect for that - I know many ppl who would never admit that they did anything wrong.

I hate ppl who give stupid comments even they werent affected.

So stfu.



We were glad too.


@Kalth

If u really want a bonus for ppl who doing a "special" job there are better ways. Maybe a little mod for lotto or something like that but preclaiming from all drops isnt fair. And announcing that in advance ofc

Personally i m very glad the Antalya Shawl didnt drop

I'm sorry, but some damn newbie doesn't tell me to shut up, tho if tried, fail miserably

I've lead countless raids and what I know from experience is that you DO NOT go and change the rules or give out drops without asking people on raid cg/bg.

A successfull raid isn't just achieving your goals, it's all about having _happy_ people when the raid's done (There will almost always be a lemon on the raid tho), not frustrated and angry. That's where you failed, I think.

 

[Darzil]

Did he ever go down a 2. time?

Yes.

I was on a raid with about 70-80 people on it. We took him down in about a minute or two, but one person missed it due to LD. He repopped during the lotto, so just about 3 groups stayed to try to get it for him. About an hour and a half of crazy fighting later, we took him down, getting the credit.

Darzil