Lag

[Daedalus]

Read the times posted, duh, yours at 11:26, mine at 11:27, we posted at almost the same time therefore i wouldnt even have time to read your long response + think of a suitable reply. Who's acting like the idiot now.

Okay, excuse me. I wasn't aware that you weren't replying to my reply.

 

[Jayce]

i dont have to be nice.
You on the other hand drives a buisness where u try to get customers to subscribe to a service. Have u tried to sell something to a person with saying he has an attitude even if he has? same rules applies online as in rl but some goa staff seems not to understood that. Sometimes you have to swallow the pride and its your jobb to do this not saying its "not our fault" or call the customers childish. Seems like some ppl need to get out some in irl and se how business really works.

Grow up. Idiot.

 

[Sendraks]

I'm getting a little confused with the lag now. I've now started taking pingplots at various times of day, in various zones and with DAoC down as well. I'll send em on to Requiel when I have a full set.

I've gotten used to the occasional lag spikes we've been having over the past month. Initially I thought a lot of these problems were with my BT connection, but I've upgraded the software drivers for that and the difficulties I've been having with it have ceased.

While the lag spikes continue, the latest latency over the past two nights is a lot more subtle. Its not even making the P or L indicators go yellow most of the time, they stay as green, yet the game for me is clearly lagging by half a second to a second. Which can be quite disasterous. I'd like to think it was something I can fix on my side, though I've no idea what or how to do that beyond what I've already tried and when a lot of people start experiencing the same problem at the same time, it leads me to believe that its probably not my P.C.

But if it is. Easy to understand instructions on fixing would be welcome.

So I've started taking pingplots, which in so far as I can understand, show problem at a bt router/server thing in London and an OT server/router in London. I think. I dunno, I'm new at this.

 

[Equendil]

In the business, there's bad support sometimes, but often enough it's bad customers ...

Customer: "I've got lag, your servers are shit, fix it now kthxbye"
Support: "Alright, let's check your network settings ?"
Customer : "Bullshit I are not stupid ! My computer is da Bomb ! Fix lag now ! My m8s have lag too !"
Support: "<sigh> Ok, it may be network infrastructure, we'd need a trace to be sure and so we can get it fixed"
Customer: "No, I are the client, I are right, fix it"
Support: "Look, we do not own the whole Internet network, if we can't pinpoint where the problem is, we can't get if fixed"
Customer: "No, it's your fault, now fix it or lose your job !!"
Support: <sigh>
Customer: "Support is shit !"
Support: "..."

 

[Chilly]

I think I'll say what Requiel and Xalin can't.

You dont like the lag? DO A FUCKING PINGPLOT AND SEND IT IN
The lag is not GOAs fault directly, they cannot fix it directly allthey can do is complain at OT, the more plots the complaint has the more likely OT are to give a fuck and actually increase a certain pipe/fix existing hub whatever the problem is. Secondly - Req and Xalin have sweet fuck all to do with the networking maintenence at GOA they are community managers - poor, poor chaps who have to keep the punters sweet by reading our endless QQ over rightnow and VOLUNTARILY READING the even more endless bullshit people post on FH, they dont have to post here, they probably had to convince their boss it was a good idea to spend a bit of time here to be able to at all. Give them some fucking slack, they are doing what they can do and without our help nothing will get done because they do not experience the lag from within Paris and it's suburbs.

Better yet, fuck off and stop playing if its so unbearable. I get EXACTLY the same lag as many people are getting, yeah its awful, but I now play in windowed mode with ping plotter running in the background plotting all the time, when a spike hits i grab a capture and save it in my goodie bag for Erivoss.

Cheers Erivoss, Requiel and Xalin for even giving a shit and puting up with such whiners.

 

[Firebirth]

Apparently the English and German (and probably the 'New' Italian servers) have/will be having probelms with latency, the english and german communities have been having problems with inocuous lag spikes for around 5 weeks before new frontiers launched. It was annoying to say the least and i can see how people using 56k or ISDN dual channel will be suffering badly, as it was poor on my 512 ASDL connection. With time the latency either seemed to die down somewhat or we got used to it to an extent that it didnt really bother us, (except on large scale raids with Mass link deads) Woth the launch of New Frontiers excaliber for instance wasfine, although there was some residual latency it was probably due to the large scale battles people were engaging in.

However, logging on last night, the latency had reared its ugly head again and we were geting lag spikes every 5 minutes on average. i find that level of latency unacceptable and its upto GOA to sort it.

Now i know you've been collecting pingplotter results for around 3 weeks now and you still want more, how many is enough ? 50 ? 100 ? 1,000 ? the community needs to know this kind of information otherwise we feel like were being shunned.

every person i talked to last night was having serious latency probelms, therefore its wholly unlikely the problem is related to network setups, additionally when the server was fine yesterday and my config hasnt changed in months.

I respect Requeil, Xalin and all the other English GM's, basically cos they stick their neck out and they've been the first GM's to really help when theres problems and communicate with the community when required.

At the end of the day the fault lies with Opentransit, your parent company GOA, as a provider of service you should do your uptmost to garentee a good level of service. The community is more than welcome to help with data, if you communicate with us on how much data you need to satisfy opentransit that work needs doing and how the problem, and hopefully its solution is progressing.

 

[cog]

These should encourage the GM's to do something else they are gonna lose a job!

[post=556795]Click me, tard[/post]

 

[Elitestoner]

chillz m8s

not their fault so stop the qq already.. sure the lag is annoying but at least the enemy gets it too so theyre just as fcked as u are..

 

[Megalodon]

It doesn't work.
The actual situation in your analogy is this:
You buy a car with free inbuilt service and repairs. The car runs smoothly but the roads you drive on are bumpy and as a result the ride of the car isn't as smooth as you'd like. You take it back to the dealer and the dealer says, we can't do anything about the state of the road. Perhaps if you tell us where the roads are bumpy, we can get the highways department to fix it. In the meantime have you tried firming up the suspension and inflating the tyres a little more?

But instead the customer tries out the new cars named Ford WoW or BMW E2 and by using those cars he dont HAVE to ride on the bumby roads ever again. Seems that Goa dont understand that concept. Ppls are so fed up with the problems that they stop driving your car.

 

[andree]

This is just a question and not a flame so if im wrong just correct me

But isnt pretty easy for goa themselves to connect to the different "reference" servers around europe and request or send a package similiar to the ones that daoc sends and by so gettin their own pingplots?

And by doin so they know exactly what they send, where they send it and when the problem occurs... or am i totally wrong?

And by doin this they eliminate the problem with the viability of second hand information or unspecified sources that might occour when u gather information the way goa does when they request pingplots from their users

 

[Svartmetall]

In the business, there's bad support sometimes, but often enough it's bad customers ...

Customer: "I've got lag, your servers are shit, fix it now kthxbye"
Support: "Alright, let's check your network settings ?"
Customer : "Bullshit I are not stupid ! My computer is da Bomb ! Fix lag now ! My m8s have lag too !"
Support: "<sigh> Ok, it may be network infrastructure, we'd need a trace to be sure and so we can get it fixed"
Customer: "No, I are the client, I are right, fix it"
Support: "Look, we do not own the whole Internet network, if we can't pinpoint where the problem is, we can't get it fixed"
Customer: "No, it's your fault, now fix it or lose your job !!"
Support: <sigh>
Customer: "Support is shit !"
Support: "..."

LOL

Think you hit the nail on the head there Equendil. Oboy is too busy whining to listen to anything that doesn't agree with this view of the universe.

People like Oboy: "I am the customer which means I'm right!"
Someone trying to help: "Actually...you might not be."
People like Oboy: "WTF? How dare you suggest that! That makes you shit support! WAAAAAAAA!"

...

 

[Tilda]

Ok, guys chill out.
Wert and Oboy specificly, if you can't reply nicley, then you may suddenly lose the ability to reply at all.

I appreciate you have lag, but the best, and practicly the only way you can get it sorted is by sending in ping plots, unless you want to move to Paris so you miss out on the OT routers.

Bitching at GM's does 2 things. 1) Pisses them off because they have to deal with your ill informed, ignorant whines. and 2) Pisses me off because you're acting like berks.
The GM's come here, out of their own free will, its not in their contract that they must reply to retards posting shit on FH. If people carry on flaming them, i can reasonably see them not posting so much, which would be to the detriment of the community, which, I think in general, appreciates the "personal" touch we get by having GM's post here. Thusly, you need to be nice to the GM's, or else you might find yourself slapped with a ban stick.

That is all.

Tilda

 

[Sendraks]

But instead the customer tries out the new cars named Ford WoW or BMW E2 and by using those cars he dont HAVE to ride on the bumby roads ever again.

How does the change of car make the roads less bumpy?

You're basically saying that a change to a different type of car stops the roads being less bumpy, which is wrong. I believe you're using this analogy to compare switching from DAoC to WoW. Which is not comparable to just changing car, its comparable to changing both the car and the roads you drive on.

Requiel's analogy about the road is correct. GoA manufacture the car, Open Transit maintain the roads. YOU drive the car. Therfore YOU are a the person best placed to give feedback on the state of the roads.

And if WoW comes out in Europe and Blizz/Vivendi decide to use Opentransit as well, for whatever reason, you'll be on a different car on the same bumpy roads.

And the roads will still be bumpy.

 

[Gilth]

a suggestion.... why doesn't GOA bring excalibur+prydwen+camlann servers to england where the most gameplayers are located? I mean i am from germany too but I am sick of lag spikes and lds also at excalibur. I guess that, it won't cost too much to just bring the hardware to england anywhere (or germany , just kiddin) . I really believe this will solve this problem. So you can say now that it will cost GOA too much, then charge us for 1 month 5 euro more then they will cover the costs in my opinion. I really believe this can work...

 

[Daedalus]

a suggestion.... why doesn't GOA bring excalibur+prydwen+camlann servers to england where the most gameplayers are located? I mean i am from germany too but I am sick of lag spikes and lds also at excalibur. I guess that, it won't cost too much to just bring the hardware to england anywhere (or germany , just kiddin) . I really believe this will solve this problem. So you can say now that it will cost GOA too much, then charge us for 1 month 5 euro more then they will cover the costs in my opinion. I really believe this can work...

England's connections are even worse, or so I heard.
No, they should move 'em to the netherlands. I believe that we have a faster backbone network than the French too, especially in/around Amsterdam.

Hey, lets host the english servers at SARA. Several 1gbit backbones to the internet, hoorah.

 

[Svartmetall]

a suggestion.... why doesn't GOA bring excalibur+prydwen+camlann servers to England

And the GMs, too, so they don't have to live in Paris and get charged £2 for a Coke

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

England's connections are even worse, or so I heard.
No, they should move 'em to the netherlands. I believe that we have a faster backbone network than the French too, especially in/around Amsterdam.

Hey, lets host the english servers at SARA. Several 1gbit backbones to the internet, hoorah.

Erm... I live in Groningen, and there is a very sweet backbone here about 1km north of where I live University uses it aswell, and we've got Astrophysics study here, and an astrophysics company and they send back and forth a tremendous amount of data between them and various observatory around the world, and never had any problems with it

 

[Gamah]

£2!!!!!!!!!oO

 

[Equendil]

a suggestion.... why doesn't GOA bring excalibur+prydwen+camlann servers to england where the most gameplayers are located? I mean i am from germany too but I am sick of lag spikes and lds also at excalibur. I guess that, it won't cost too much to just bring the hardware to england anywhere (or germany , just kiddin) . I really believe this will solve this problem. So you can say now that it will cost GOA too much, then charge us for 1 month 5 euro more then they will cover the costs in my opinion. I really believe this can work...

Probably wouldn't solve much of anything. I used to play Unreal Tournament semi-competitively before DAoC, and it was a nightmare to find servers that would please everyone when we had international matches because there was always bad routing, bottlenecked or broken links somewhere. Icelandic players were being routed through New York before reaching London, swedes invariably had silly packet loss on U.K. servers even though it was alright from U.K to Sweden servers, etc etc. About only thing that usually worked fine was U.K <-> Holland links.

Now that was a few years ago, and european links are probably a little better nowadays, but the point is, regardless where you put the servers, there will always be people experiencing network lag, packet loss, etc, especially if they are not in the same country, and let's face it, a lot of players on english servers are not from the U.K. You're not, I'm not, I don't even think the majority is. Granted, the majority definitively isn't french, so that would probably be better still on average.

Also, a lot of the lag people experience in DAoC is not due to the network at all in the first place, moving servers wouldn't solve that. When it's not the harddrive swapping crazy or loading textures or both (#1 reason for pseudo network lag I bet, see Daedalus post earlier in this thread), it's the client having too much to handle in the middle of a zerg (/effects self can help there), or the server being unusually loaded. Or it's the sister downloading stuff on another comp, some emailer automatically fetching mail in the background, windows update waking up, you name it.

Speaking about which, a good advice I can give to people using the ToA client on a computer that isn't top of the shelf, give a go to the 'fastest framerate' option at startup, or whatever it's called, you may find out that DAoC feels a lot less laggy, as it won't consume as much memory, load as many textures, it won't process reflective water etc. You can always reenable various graphical features as you see fit.

In any case, it's not just the servers that would have to move, but some of GOA staff too.

Edit: Actually, I agree with Daedalus, moving servers to Amsterdam would likely be a better option

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

ohw, and we've also got LOFAR in the making here...
and that network is soooo fecking sweet, it will have the fastest network in the world, capable of transmitting 600 dvd's per second!!!!

Nice clip of LOFAR:
http://www.lofar.nl/video/LOFAR_E010604.exe

Ohw, and ofcourse the LOFAR site:
http://www.lofar.org/

 

[Wazkyr]

Ill just say, i had insane lag last few days to, ONLY in daoc, yes i got a 3com netcard buts thats not the problem. Seems the lag is just getting more and more painfull since NF came. Got 5-15 sec lag evry 5 min, last few days, really unplayable. Im yet one of the players thinking about moving from DAoC, not only becous of lag but also becous of NF, but the lag kinda made the last tuch.

 

[Gorrion]

It doesn't work.
The actual situation in your analogy is this:
You buy a car with free inbuilt service and repairs. The car runs smoothly but the roads you drive on are bumpy and as a result the ride of the car isn't as smooth as you'd like. You take it back to the dealer and the dealer says, we can't do anything about the state of the road. Perhaps if you tell us where the roads are bumpy, we can get the highways department to fix it. In the meantime have you tried firming up the suspension and inflating the tyres a little more?

That is a closer analogy than the one you posted.
Our servers and network run fine. That is the only equipment we can fix directly as they're the only part of the chain we actually own and maintain. We don't own or maintain OT's hubs and switches. I play this game (from home - with a normal level 50 character) and I get 0 lag because my ISP doesn't route me through OT's kit as I'm in Paris and not connecting via the international hubs. This is why we can't see where it's coming from ourselves and also how we know the lag is outside our network.

Closer Analogy ???
Ill give you a fact!
1:Supscripers to Daoc pays a fee every month to be able to play Daoc every month.
2:Supscripers get devastatinig lag spikes all the time making Daoc impossible to play.
3:Supscripers 75% of witch has very littel understandings on pc's let alone routers and internet connections, blame GOA (their provider of Daoc)
4:GOA respond we cant do anything you have to send this and that to get the problem solved
5:Supscriper dont know much about this and that and try to play daoc with lag "for a while"
6: a month or so passes and the lag is still bad or even worse.
7: the supscriper ends his payment to GOA, atleast until problem is solved looking at the boards for information of the lag beeing fixed. in the meantime he/she plays another game.
8: The lag continues and GOA loses massive numbers of supscripers (current Time)
9: Another online game find's it way on the market and the canceled supscripers never return to Daoc.
10: Dark age of Camelot has seen The End.

 

[Sendraks]

Closer Analogy ???
Ill give you a fact!
1:Supscripers to Daoc pays a fee every month to be able to play Daoc every month.
2:Supscripers get devastatinig lag spikes all the time making Daoc impossible to play.
3:Supscripers 75% of witch has very littel understandings on pc's let alone routers and internet connections, blame GOA (their provider of Daoc)
4:GOA respond we cant do anything you have to send this and that to get the problem solved
5:Supscriper dont know much about this and that and try to play daoc with lag "for a while"
6: a month or so passes and the lag is still bad or even worse.
7: the supscriper ends his payment to GOA, atleast until problem is solved looking at the boards for information of the lag beeing fixed. in the meantime he/she plays another game.
8: The lag continues and GOA loses massive numbers of supscripers (current Time)
9: Another online game find's it way on the market and the canceled supscripers never return to Daoc.
10: Dark age of Camelot has seen The End.

You need to add an additional point between points 6 and 7.

6) Despite being asked by GOA GMs, player refuses to assist in helping to trace part of the problem instead prefering to whine and belittle GOA GMs instead.

At least we've been provided with a link to the tools necessary to gain the information to help GOA to put a case to OpenTransit about improving the service.

Hell, it took me less than a minute to get ping plotter running and start seeing the information that the GOA GMs want.

Or do some people just generally object to doing anything helpful, preferring to be spoonfed what they want for the rest of their natural lives?

 

[Comos]

You need to add an additional point between points 6 and 7.

6) Despite being asked by GOA GMs, player refuses to assist in helping to trace part of the problem instead prefering to whine and belittle GOA GMs instead.

At least we've been provided with a link to the tools necessary to gain the information to help GOA to put a case to OpenTransit about improving the service.

Hell, it took me less than a minute to get ping plotter running and start seeing the information that the GOA GMs want.

Or do some people just generally object to doing anything helpful, preferring to be spoonfed what they want for the rest of their natural lives?

ok, even though I can use that Pingplotter if I have to, and prolly most of players can if they do everything GOA says
but at the same time, as well as most of the players again I'm thinking this: "it's very annoying that we have to do this"
Most ppl think that, and why blame em? They want to play a game, for which they pay and that's ALL they want to do. Even though some will just send the pingplots they will think less good of the service of GOA cuz they have to do it anyways, while the lag may not be directly their fault.

If you go buy a television somewhere and it doesn't work after you got it home, you'll be mad at the store you bought it from and chances are you won't go there again even though the factory who made the TV was to blame for it.

I don't think it's that hard to understand then that ppl are upset with GOA for the lag?

 

[Gog]

If you go buy a television somewhere and it doesn't work after you got it home, you'll be mad at the store you bought it from and chances are you won't go there again even though the factory who made the TV was to blame for it.

I don't think it's that hard to understand then that ppl are upset with GOA for the lag?

Using the same example, if you bought a television and got home to find that your local transmitter had fallen down and you couldn't receive programs would you be mad at the store or the broadcasting company? Chances are that if you complained to the store they would do absolutely nothing, as they just provide equipment to receive transmissions on.
Its almost the same situation here. GOA are providing a service(the store), but the infrastructure in place to actually use this service is broken (the transmitter). They could just say "not our problem - complain to Opentransit", but they seem willing to assist in resolving the issue(though most likely this is because they realise that it is their service that is suffering as a result and they will have little to no recourse to be compensated for any loss of revenue resulting from intermitant problems".

 

[Daedalus]

Oh for god sake, can we please just drop those analogies? Stick to the facts people.

 

[Sendraks]

Oh for god sake, can we please just drop those analogies? Stick to the facts people.

No wait.

Imagine that you're a Gnu and have recently bought a DVD player........

 

[Oboy]

ever heard the expression "The customer is always right" ???
This apply to all business and a manager that dosnt know about this will soon loose their customers to someone that do.

So the right thing for a manager to do in this situation (the starter of the topic problems) is to give several concrete advice how to fix/help to fix the problem starting with the most possible one (lagg from ot). What the gm did in this case was giving a advice taken from above and having a "its not always ouer fault" attitude. Whit this attitude you get ZERO customers and most ppl realise this when there out of business
Nuff said.

 

[Helme]

ever heard the expression "The customer is always right" ???
This apply to all business and a manager that dosnt know about this will soon loose their customers to someone that do.

So the right thing for a manager to do in this situation (the starter of the topic problems) is to give several concrete advice how to fix/help to fix the problem starting with the most possible one (lagg from ot). What the gm did in this case was giving a advice taken from above and having a "its not always ouer fault" attitude. Whit this attitude you get ZERO customers and most ppl realise this when there out of business
Nuff said.

Send in the pingplots and get this fixed already goddamnit, they cant travel all around europe to get pingplots for opentransit while you sit on your ass and whine instead of doing it yourself understanded??

 

[Daedalus]

Send in the pingplots and get this fixed already goddamnit, they cant travel all around europe to get pingplots for opentransit while you sit on your ass and whine instead of doing it yourself understanded??

Or, even worse, go around Europe to find a lot of badly configured computers and evil internet providers.