Justice is served?!?!!

[old.Tohtori]

I remember clearly when i was 6 or 7 years old. I knew that it was not a good idéa to beat someone to death / shoot them or what not. I shot a few birds at that age too, and felt it was not the nicest thing to do.

Some peoples brains are just wired the wrong way. And circumstances are not irrelevant.

Some don't feel the "bad wibe" from shooting a bird, some grow up slower, etc etc. As i sid, hopefully it was made 100% sure they knew what they were doing, but with media/public pressure this would've caused, i'm leaning towards "no it wasn't".

Circumstances are irrelevant when it comes to pure murder. Person dies, this one did it, that's it.

 

[Thorwyn]

So a short answer; murder is murder, death is death, circumstances are irrelevant, yet do these kids -really- know it was murder?

Short answer: yes!

At the age of 10, you´re passt primary school and can go to advanced school. Kids at that age are well aware of the world they live in and about basic things like death and killing. Don´t tell me you never killed a fly, a bee or a worm when you were young. And I bet you could tell that the fly/worm/bee was dead when you were finished.
Ofcourse you can assume that these kids were lacking the intellectual background (i.e. they were indeed thick like bricks), but I still can´t imagine that they didn´t know what they were doing.

 

[Calaen]

Media at work *two thumbs up*

Not particulary aimed at you, but this is a funny reaction every time. Finding evil where evil needs to found really. People love if there's something to blame and panic if there's not, yet evil is as vague as a concept as god

So, the case(short answer last line);

Two kids, age 10, know f*ck all(as is this forums census), kill a 2 year old.

Life seems harsh as they are just kids, but i'd like to think they were given really thorough examinations by top dogs, who then decided that putting them in "Murderer kindergarden" or "Killer Highschool" would be the appropriate action. Note the tone, it's intentional. They knew, in any case, that this would turn them into bad individuals. Imagine if you had lived in prison for your pre-/teenage years.

Other options should've been there, but most likely a pressure of public hasted he things, which is often the case.

Also parenting should've taken a front seat in this case, not the kids alone. (don't know case, might have been)

If the event was; "10 year old finds dads gun, shoots 2 year old little brother." it wouldn't be as shocking, yet the result and action were same.

Or perhaps; "Little league kid swings bat, hits kid, 2 year old dead.", easily could've been seen as an accident even if it wasn't, same with the gun.

So a short answer; murder is murder, death is death, circumstances are irrelevant, yet do these kids -really- know it was murder?

Stop using your own examples which cannot even be compared to the actual fucking case while trying to say they are the same. Each case has to be viewed on it's own.

A kid swinging a bat and killing someone, is messed up, a kid finding a gun and pointing and shooting it out of curiosity is something totally different again. Two 10 year olds actually working together and torturing someone is not even in the same ball park as the two above examples, yes the end product is death but the later showed a process of thought that should not be entering any 10 year olds head.

 

[tierk]

Lets try and keep this on track and discuss this individual case and not muddy the waters by talking about car jacking etc. They are in no way comparable to cases like the ripper or the Bulger killing.

I just don't get why they would even consider letting anyone out of a mental hospital / prison, that has committed crimes as bad as this. In particular a person who is 100% confirmed as having psychological issues and required to take treatment for the rest of his life.

Its not like his illness has gone away, it is just being treated and he is only functional as normal member of society - if his crimes can ever allow him to be considered as normal - with the drugs in him. What happens if he stops taking his med's and then goes on to kill people?

Will those same people that deemed him fit to be let out into society again have to face any consequences? I think we all know the answer to that one. With even a .00005% risk of people that are locked away for murder, in particular mass murderers, of re-offending then life should be just that life.

Personally i don't think that people that commit crimes like these should be alive let alone to be given a choice or chance to get out of jail /mental hospital. But that is another issue and as someone rightly said earlier in the thread one that has had a number of threads discussing it.

*****Edit*****

Toh, seriously where in f**ks name do you come up with this rubbish? Some of your ideas of equivalent examples are just so far off base its laughable. Seriously dude if you dont know what you are talking about don't bother posting, you only make yourself look more and more ridiculous.

 

[Ch3tan]

Toht you are absolute tool. Maybe you should read the facts on the Bulger killing before making massive assumptions.

You are an absolute cock end when it comes to arguing a point you believe in, you refuse to see any other view and talk shit and make things up to simply further your own bullshit.

CAN YOU FUCKERS STOP QUOTING HIM. Please for the love of god, I chose not to read his dribble, but you keeping fucking quoting him!

 

[Calaen]

Sowwy but he infuriates me

 

[tierk]

To follow up on what others have already said regarding the James Bulger murder, can anyone please tell me how these two f**kers are still alive, let alone free??? They should have sterilized and locked up the parents for good measure.

I still firmly believe that the entire justice system needs to be overhauled and also believe that any sort of justice system, in particular sentencing, should allow for input from the victim or the relatives of victims, in cases that the actual victim is no longer around, of the crime committed.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, ignoring the flamebaits here, but the examples were to show the point i was making in the end result being the same.

It's an opinion on the matter, duely given as asked by Calaen.

But hey, you cling on to any possibility to throw silly insults at me *pats head*

If someone can show me what was so shocking about what i said, appreciated.

It's not like i said "Ah that event was nothing", simply giving examples that i would find equal when i personally look at the end result being the most important one.

Funny that i don't know about my opinions though, gosh, guess Calaen should post what I think.

 

[soze]

To follow up on what others have already said regarding the James Bulger murder, can anyone please tell me how these two f**kers are still alive, let alone free??? They should have sterilized and locked up the parents for good measure.

I still firmly believe that the entire justice system needs to be overhauled and also believe that any sort of justice system, in particular sentencing, should allow for input from the victim or the relatives of victims, in cases that the actual victim is no longer around, of the crime committed.

Because the government thinks ten years was enough to lock them up then it paid for them to get A Levels and a brand new identity and probably helped them into jobs. It is probably costing more for them to be free than it cost for them to be locked up. I remember reading the British Government spent £20k to stop a Spanish Magazine from printing the new identities. Sometimes our legal system makes me laugh.

 

[Calaen]

Well, ignoring the flamebaits here, but the examples were to show the point i was making in the end result being the same.

It's an opinion on the matter, duely given as asked by Calaen.

But hey, you cling on to any possibility to throw silly insults at me *pats head*

If someone can show me what was so shocking about what i said, appreciated.

It's not like i said "Ah that event was nothing", simply giving examples that i would find equal when i personally look at the end result being the most important one.

The journey is the most important part Toh not the end.

Being tortured cannot be realistically compared to someone shooting you in the back of the head with no knowledge that it was coming.

 

[old.Tohtori]

The journey is the most important part Toh not the end.

Being tortured cannot be realistically compared to someone shooting you in the back of the head with no knowledge that it was coming.

Well why didn't you start with that?

That's a difference in opinion, you think that the journey to the event matters, to me it doesn't. I look at the end result. It was, i think you can agree, what you were asking. Peoples opinion.

 

[Calaen]

Well why didn't you start with that?

That's a difference in opinion, you think that the journey to the event matters, to me it doesn't. I look at the end result. It was, i think you can agree, what you were asking. Peoples opinion.

No I asked for people to tell me how they feel when they think of those two kids, leading that two year old to his horrific death.

 

[old.Tohtori]

No I asked for people to tell me how they feel when they think of those two kids, leading that two year old to his horrific death.

Yes, and i answered that it's the same as any kid killing another kid, also addressed the case.

I didn't tell you that it's the same for everyone, i told that it's the same(as by result) to me.

Do i really have to plaster "in my opinion" on every post?

 

[soze]

In the context of people being released back in to public its not your opinion its a matter of public safety so there is a different between a cold blooded pre meditated murder and a crime of passion. So for this discussion your opinion means as little as mine its all a case of the likely hood of them doing it again.

 

[Calaen]

Yes, and i answered that it's the same as any kid killing another kid, also addressed the case.

I didn't tell you that it's the same for everyone, i told that it's the same(as by result) to me.

Do i really have to plaster "in my opinion" on every post?

YOU still have not told me how it makes you feel. Other than telling me it's the same as any other case, which I still can't compare it to because I don't know how you actually feel about the immaginary thing you are comparing it with.

The fact that you don't view or feel a human being being tortured is any different to them being killed out right without any knowledge tells me you are broken.

 

[old.Tohtori]

In the context of people being released back in to public its not your opinion its a matter of public safety so there is a different between a cold blooded pre meditated murder and a crime of passion. So for this discussion your opinion means as little as mine its all a case of the likely hood of them doing it again.

This discussion is nothing BUT personal opinions. If we discussed it without opinions, it would be as simple as;

The people in control decide, we don't matter.

I never claimed my opinion trumps yours, i think you'll find it the other way around regarding some individuals here.

YOU still have not told me how it makes you feel. Other than telling me it's the same as any other case, which I still can't compare it to because I don't know how you actually feel about the immaginary thing you are comparing it with.

The fact that you don't view or feel a human being being tortured is any different to them being killed out right without any knowledge tells me you are broken.

I may think different from you, but it's not "broken". Stop that baiting.

How i feel? If it's someone close to me or someone i know, i can't tell you as no one has been murdered in my vicinity. Otherwise i feel the same as towards the soldier getting shot in taiwan. I don't differentiate, and things that happen otuside my personal zone do not cause me to lose sleep.

What i found funny is that Ch3tan said something about me not listening to other peoples opinions, yet every time i give mine, it's pitchforks up no matter what

 

[Calaen]

I may think different from you, but it's not "broken". Stop that baiting.

I am not baiting you, and I appreciate your responses, but your still not really getting what I am after,

If you think about A) your mother being shot dead or B) your mother being kidnapped, tortured and beaten to death.

How does each scenario make you feel about her final moments, that is what I was after, because I myself explained how I felt when thinking of the child in this specific case being led to a very horrible death.

 

[Thorwyn]

You think that drinking too much and then shooting someone in the face and planning to kill someone, execute the plan, torture the victim and then dump him into the river is *the same* AND *should be treated the same*?

 

[old.Tohtori]

I am not baiting you, and I appreciate your responses, but your still not really getting what I am after,

If you think about A) your mother being shot dead or B) your mother being kidnapped, tortured and beaten to death.

How does each scenario make you feel about her final moments, that is what I was after, because I myself explained how I felt when thinking of the child in this specific case being led to a very horrible death.

Fair enough, just seemed like some fishing. Anyway;

If i had to imagine the situation, i would concentrate on her life ending and her being gone. Knowing she was tortured etc, would take a backseat. Would i want due payment for the crime? Ofcourse, but i wouldn't want the criminal to be tortured before sentenced to death.

Like taken, action punished, miss mother etc.

All hypothetical as i said, i don't know how i'd feel as no one has been killed in my vicinity.

The case you asked about though, i think i answered, as being irrelevant to my feelings as it's a stranger as much as any old man being beat in an alleyway. So a kid, teenager, soldier, etc, all register as same level of emotional response.

Hopefully that answers it.

You think that drinking too much and then shooting someone in the face and planning to kill someone, execute the plan, torture the victim and then dump him into the river is *the same* AND *should be treated the same*?

I think of a murder as murder, no matter the events leading to it. It's an opinion, not "what should be done".

 

[Thorwyn]

I think of a murder as murder, no matter the events leading to it. It's an opinion, not "what should be done".

Yeah, but drinking too much and shooting someone is homicide, not murder.
If all judges would share your opinion, our courts would save a hell of a lot of time.

(And btw...what´s the point of having an opinion if you don´t think that it should be done accordingly? Or are you saying: That´s my opinion, but you guys are doing just fine?)

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yeah, but drinking too much and shooting someone is homicide, not murder.
If all judges would share your opinion, our courts would save a hell of a lot of time.

(And btw...what´s the point of having an opinion if you don´t think that it should be done accordingly? Or are you saying: That´s my opinion, but you guys are doing just fine?)

Well we were talking about murder, not degrees of it. Ofcourse there's variation in manslaughter/homicide/murder etc

I don't think all deaths should be treated as murder.

I consider my opinion to be mine, which may be shared by others, or not. The majority of the opinions on any given subject will then be the deciding opinion and set the census of sorts.

"That's my opinion, but you guys are doing just fine" is apt, as long as those actions aren't harming other people who don't share the view.

Do what you do but don't cause others harm/force others.

 

[Bugz]

Well why didn't you start with that?

That's a difference in opinion, you think that the journey to the event matters, to me it doesn't. I look at the end result. It was, i think you can agree, what you were asking. Peoples opinion.

This is a very interesting way of looking at life and let's put it into reality.

I rob a man. Gain 50k and fuck off to a nice country. End result: I have 50k & I live by a beach.

I work hard for 10 years. Gain 50k and fuck off to a nice country. End result: I have 50k & I live by a beach.

The end result is the same - the journey is different. Since you ONLY look at the end result, no crime has been committed.

Let's look at another example.

Kid A punches me on tuesday and steals my wallet. I punch kid A on wednesday and retrieve my wallet. End result: I punched kid A and retrieved my own wallet. The problem? By taking your way of life, we have no idea how the wallet ended up on him. Second problem? Theoretically, based on the first problem, I should be arrested for theft & assault. The REAL situation? Judge would take into account the fact kid A stole my wallet and IF I did get a sentence, no doubt it would be less than if I had randomly punched the kid and took the wallet.

QED - fail.

P.S - what I'm saying is, you can get to an end result through different paths in all walks of life. It's not the journey itself, or the end result but the two combined that count.

P.P.S - If we analyze the view in terms of probability -> conditional probability simply would not exist & our whole system of risk assessment etc. would break down with it.

 

[mooSe_]

This is a very interesting way of looking at life and let's put it into reality.

I rob a man. Gain 50k and fuck off to a nice country. End result: I have 50k & I live by a beach.

I work hard for 10 years. Gain 50k and fuck off to a nice country. End result: I have 50k & I live by a beach.

The end result is the same - the journey is different. Since you ONLY look at the end result, no crime has been committed.

Let's look at another example.

Kid A punches me on tuesday and steals my wallet. I punch kid A on wednesday and retrieve my wallet. End result: I punched kid A and retrieved my own wallet. The problem? By taking your way of life, we have no idea how the wallet ended up on him. Second problem? Theoretically, based on the first problem, I should be arrested for theft & assault. The REAL situation? Judge would take into account the fact kid A stole my wallet and IF I did get a sentence, no doubt it would be less than if I had randomly punched the kid and took the wallet.

QED - fail.

Only looking at the consequences of actions does actual stand up as a moral theory a lot better than that.

You have to assess an action based on it's overall net benefit or harm and not just on the benefit/harm caused to one person.

The end result of your first example is not the same in both cases. The end result in case 1 is actually I have 50k and live on a beach and a man loses 50k and suffers the trauma of being robbed. In the second case the end result is I have 50k and live on a beach and have 10 years of valuable work experience. If you take all the consequences into account and not just half of them then you can see which actions are wrong: clearly the better one is to work hard because then you do not cause any harm to anyone else whilst also benefiting yourself.

In your second example, the end result is: you retrieve a wallet which belongs to you and kid A has a bruise or whatever from the punch. You could say that this action is justified because causing punching someone causes less pain to someone than retrieving your wallet causes benefit to you. Of course the action would be even better if you could retrieve the wallet without punching anybody.

 

[old.Tohtori]

This is a very interesting way of looking at life and let's put it into reality.

I rob a man. Gain 50k and fuck off to a nice country. End result: I have 50k & I live by a beach.

I work hard for 10 years. Gain 50k and fuck off to a nice country. End result: I have 50k & I live by a beach.

The end result is the same - the journey is different. Since you ONLY look at the end result, no crime has been committed.

Not the same end result.

The end result there is that you committed a crime, a man loses 50k.

Second example; End result is two people beaten, wallet returned. The wallet is back to original hands, end result good. You beating someone to get the wallet back, equals the end result to; kid stole your wallet.

You're as equally wrong in your action as the kid, resulting in same end result violence wise.

These two are not comparable to the event of sudden murder/torture murder and how that is equal in my opinion regarding end result.

Oh and FYI; I never said that the path to the result is moot, just that i regard end result as more important.

 

[Bugz]

True but in your cases, you're using the journey there to come to a valid conclusion about the end result.

If I simply brushed off all events that happened before point t, then I have 50k and I live on a beach. I can say in point t that the man is -50k but in doing so, I am looking at t-1 to make that conclusion.

But your right, not very good examples - I should have used conditional probability instead!

Edit - Toht -> to formulate the idea that person X has committed a crime, you have to look at t-1. So in fact, you are admitting you look at the journey to formulate a response to the end.

 

[Bugz]

Alright let's look at conditional probability to clear it up.

Let's say I have murderer one and murderer two. Given that murderer one has already murdered seven people (i.e. the journey) we can say that his probability of murdering again is 0.85.

Given that murderer two has murdered only one person, we can say the probability of him murdering again is 0.3.

If we ignore the journey, the probability of murderer one committing a murder is = to the probability of murderer two committing a murder.

In reality - this doesn't stand up.

 

[Bugz]

Oh and FYI; I never said that the path to the result is moot, just that i regard end result as more important.

you think that the journey to the event matters, to me it doesn't.

Nevermind guys. I've found the problem. Toht is changing his argument from 'journey doesnt matter' to 'i never said that the path to the result is moot.'

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yeah, you're trying to put maths in this isn't really working as you're taking things way too anally.

Not to mention you ignore anything said besides one line again.

If you read that line you quoted with sucha fine comb, ofcourse it reads as "journey isn't valid", but since we were talking about the end result being a murder and how that murder happened, the journey doesn't matter.

Do you get it? Me saying "Way a person is murdered doesn't matter to me" does not equal to a blanket statement of "The way things happen doesn't matter at all."

But to give you another chance(again); the probability of someone murdering does not change with amount, all that matters there is the cabability for murder.

 

[Bugz]

How can I argue with you seriously when I have just picked two lines from your argument, no more than a page apart, that completely and utterly contradict each other?

'the journey doesn't matter.'
'oh wait - i never said it doesnt matter entirely.'

I will leave my postings on this particular topic at this so people don't have to sift through loads of random shit to see yet another toht-fail (this time completely achieved be yourself).

 

[mooSe_]

Hmm after some thought and some typing of counter-arguments I think the idea bugz was was criticising isn't the same as the one I'm trying to defend which is why I was having trouble understanding