Justice done

[megadave]

Anyone know what they would have done to this lot in somewhere like Italy? Just curious,

 

[Aoami]

Its a very bad idea, not only is it against freedom of speech but its exactly what these people want.

Freedom of speech doesn't cover blowing people up in the name of religion. I don't understand why people don't get this. Islam4uk have proven links to Al-Muhajiroun who had known terrorists within their ranks before being banned. If you want to stand on your soapbox and preech your religious bollocks, fine, go ahead. If you want to kill innocent people because they have a different god to you, it is not fine.

Who gives a fuck if it's what these people want? It probably isn't anyway, it's just what they've said. There are nowhere near enough people who believe what they believe in this country for them to ever acheive anything, and this decision isn't going to get them much sympathy. If the media weren't so spineless and would post the facts rather than just post bullshit, none of this would be an issue.

The issue I have with it is that it probably wont acheive anything. Basically what the government is trying to do by doing what they have done is say 'terrorism won't be tolerated', but this is a given anyway. I think it is the right decision however, as you never know, it might be enough to disillusion some of their supporters and make them change their minds, probably not, but there is a chance.

edit - i've probably contradicted myself in this post, but i'm struggling to form a coherent argument and just arguing with myself for some reason.

 

[Mey]

Or make them feel more justified in preaching hate towards the UK ("look the govt. has banned us for having an opinion") and gaining followers amongst already disenfranchised young Muslim males.

 

[Mey]

Suprise Suprise: "well maybe i wont have a platform anymore I will just be a muslim so maybe the uk govt. will just ban muslims"

 

[Aoami]

Or make them feel more justified in preaching hate towards the UK ("look the govt. has banned us for having an opinion") and gaining followers amongst already disenfranchised young Muslim males.

I have enough faith in the human race to believe this wont happen. I'm sure the 99% of young muslims who aren't currently part of any extremist movement won't change their mind over an episode like this. I still believe the fact the media are too scared to report the facts (or just haven't researched the facts, or probably more likely just don't think the facts will sell as many papers) doesn't help though.

 

[Ch3tan]

This is being grossly mis-reported in the press. All the news coverage I have seen on it claims they have been banned as a result of planning the march in Wootton. Such lazy reporting, and it only helps Choudry's stance on being oppressed and silenced.

 

[Chronictank]

I have enough faith in the human race to believe this wont happen. I'm sure the 99% of young muslims who aren't currently part of any extremist movement won't change their mind over an episode like this. I still believe the fact the media are too scared to report the facts (or just haven't researched the facts, or probably more likely just don't think the facts will sell as many papers) doesn't help though.

It gives them even more ammo, and in this case very legitimate ammo to use to get them thinking, its just a matter of conditioning from there

That is the problem
End of the day the BNP has been allowed to tout their wares for years yet they are tolerated (who in the same manner preach bigotry and racism behind closed doors)

this is a very sad day for British democracy tbh

 

[kiliarien]

Other than the inflammatory actions of this group, could this picture from the article make them rethink their media image?? <with my edit ofc>

 

[Aoami]

It gives them even more ammo, and in this case very legitimate ammo to use to get them thinking, its just a matter of conditioning from there

That is the problem
End of the day the BNP has been allowed to tout their wares for years yet they are tolerated (who in the same manner preach bigotry and racism behind closed doors)

this is a very sad day for British democracy tbh

The BNP didn't plan 3 (albeit botched) terrorist attacks in England, and others in Israel.

Yes the BNP are ***** that beat people up, but so do UAF.

JIHAD MILKSHAKES - VBS News | VBS.TV

 

[Chronictank]

The BNP didn't plan 3 (albeit botched) terrorist attacks in England, and others in Israel.

erm, where is this from?
If he planned attacks botched or not he would be in jail wouldn't he?

Having a extreme political view does not make you a terrorist....

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

Other than the inflammatory actions of this group, could this picture from the article make them rethink their media image?? <with my edit ofc>

Isn't this exactly what makes democracy? Let them have their political party, and try to get sharia law in the UK. Democracy is exactly this. Everyone can make their own political party, and run for office. They just need a large portion of the people to agree with them, and that's exactly where I think they're going to have a problem. Besides, you still have something called a constitution banning a lot of the sharia law, and that's not something they can so easily deal with (although I must say Blair has done his job eroding the constitution aswell)
Let them spout their qur'an. It's their prerogative. I will respond exactly thesame to them though as I do to Jehovah's Witnesses, and ask them kindly to leave my premises.

 

[Aoami]

erm, where is this from?
If he planned attacks botched or not he would be in jail wouldn't he?

Having a extreme political view does not make you a terrorist....

BBC NEWS | UK | Fertiliser bomb plot: The story

attempting to kill people with bombs does though

"Some of the men were involved during this time with al-Muhajiroun, the now banned Islamist group formerly headed by self-styled cleric Omar Bakri Mohammed." Being the important bit.

 

[cHodAX]

Many on here seem to be ignoring those facts bud, this group have proven links to terrorists both as a support network and for recruitment purposes. They were terrorists in everything but name and now finally someone has seen good sense in banning the fuckers outright. I look forward to the forthcoming arrests, they have been getting away with it for 7 fucking years.

 

[Chronictank]

What the guy personally done is not of consequence, you are saying the group should be banned, not certain members but the group as a whole

Thats like saying if a member of the labour party posted a racist column in a newspaper the whole labour party should be dissolved, doesn't make sense does it?

The only reason to ban the party is because you do not like their views, in other words you are policing what people think and are against people airing their views if they do not conform to what you deem acceptable.
Not very democratic is it?

Surely you see the issue with that?

If individual members of the party are up to illegal activity, individual members should be procecuted

 

[Ch3tan]

What the guy personally done is not of consequence, you are saying the group should be banned, not certain members but the group as a whole

Thats like saying if a member of the labour party posted a racist column in a newspaper the whole labour party should be dissolved, doesn't make sense does it?

The only reason to ban the party is because you do not like their views, in other words you are policing what people think and are against people airing their views if they do not conform to what you deem acceptable.
Not very democratic is it?

Surely you see the issue with that?

If individual members of the party are up to illegal activity, individual members should be procecuted

No, you are missing the point. Islam4uk is just another front for an organisation with known terrorist links. It's not a political party. And also it's not one member, Omar Bakri and Anjem Choudry are the founders of al-Muhajiroun, under all it's various aliases. al-Muhajiroun is already banned, this simply stops them changing their name to avoid the ban by making sure it covers their other aliases.

They were NOT banned for the Wootton threat, that is just bad press reporting.

 

[Ch3tan]

Many on here seem to be ignoring those facts bud, this group have proven links to terrorists both as a support network and for recruitment purposes. They were terrorists in everything but name and now finally someone has seen good sense in banning the fuckers outright. I look forward to the forthcoming arrests, they have been getting away with it for 7 fucking years.

Not everyone is ignoring these points, it's simply awful timing and very very bad handling off the media and spin by the government. Choudry has got his way here, he has a lot of free publicity, and gets to justify the points he has been making about our selective democracy. You have to wonder why our idiot home office simply did not ban them when they were being quiet and not making the headlines?

 

[Ezteq]

Tbh democracy doesn't seem to have existed for a while in a lot of 'democratic' countries. I mean in this country for example, B2 was researching the hand gun laws and found that a surprising amount of peole were against banning them, then there's the whole can of worms regarding the punishment of criminals (which I shan't go into here but lets just say I know no one who is happy with the system). It seems we speak and get ignored.

Though, the more I think about it the less I am sure I actually want a democracy because of some of the truely shockingly ignorant, stupid or just plain mean things/beliefs that people support, I have to think to myself 'do I actually want people like that to have a say in how things are run??'

For my exam last year I had to do a lot of research on censorship and freedom of information and the more I read and researched the more I was conflicted. The first opinion I formed was that censorship was a good thing because it protects people, but then I saw it isn't actually a good thing because the people who enforce censorships will censor anything they personally do not agree with and then, ultimately, we would end up being complete mushrooms (kept in the dark and fed shit) even more than we are already.

Why is it allowable for one person to express beliefs peacefully and not attempting to force them on others when it is not OK for another person to do the same? 'I support fox hunting' is a controvercial belief that we can live with 'I would love to have sex with children' is one that we would not even allow to be expressed.

I think possibly the answer is that just saying you support hunting would not start a riot, which would probably result in massive property damage and danger to innocent passers by, saying you want to start a relationship with your 3yr old neighbour would not be accepted so lightly. Similarly the proposed march through wooton bassett would, in all probability cause a riot, the people holding the march in all honesty would probably not act violently but their intention to hold a march of that nature in that place would ensure that others did the job for them and it is very naieve to think that this is not what they would want.

They could have their march in another area but to have it there was strategically planned to be as provocative as possible while still allowing them to hold their hands up and feign wide eyed innocence with the old 'but it would be a peaceful march!' routine.

However, if this is the case (and just because I suspect it, doesn't make it true) that then means that we are not only censoring what people say and do but what they might say and do and what might happen as a result which (again, imo) is rather too minority report for my liking even though I can see sometimes it is necessary I can also see the dangers where all of a sudden no one is allowed to do anything for fear it might kick something off.



Essay over...you can wake up now.

 

[Aoami]

What the guy personally done is not of consequence, you are saying the group should be banned, not certain members but the group as a whole

Thats like saying if a member of the labour party posted a racist column in a newspaper the whole labour party should be dissolved, doesn't make sense does it?

The only reason to ban the party is because you do not like their views, in other words you are policing what people think and are against people airing their views if they do not conform to what you deem acceptable.
Not very democratic is it?

Surely you see the issue with that?

If individual members of the party are up to illegal activity, individual members should be procecuted

So what you're saying is that if the nazi party were to rise now, Hitler and Mengele should be prosocuted but the party should be allowed to live on? Tenuous i know, but it gets the point across.

Islam4uk, under whatever guise they come up with, are an organisation with very strong links to previous terrorist attacks. Choudary is a very clever bloke, and presents his case in a very calm manner, but he is just the visible side of the organisation. No one really knows what goes on behind the scenes. In that video i posted, he laughs about 'al-Qaeda training camps' saying such things don't exist, and while it's never been proven, there is pretty strong evidence to suggest they do.

When people say 'well you wouldn't ban the BNP for the same thing etc', I say 'no, I wouldn't'. As soon as the BNP start planning mass cullings of black and asian people they should be stopped, but you can't ban people for talking.

 

[Ch3tan]

?'
Similarly the proposed march through wooton bassett would, in all probability cause a riot, the people holding the march in all honesty would probably not act violently but their intention to hold a march of that nature in that place would ensure that others did the job for them and it is very naieve to think that this is not what they would want.

They could have their march in another area but to have it there was strategically planned to be as provocative as possible while still allowing them to hold their hands up and feign wide eyed innocence with the old 'but it would be a peaceful march!' routine

Here is the thing Ez, the proposed march was never banned or stopped from happening. It was a big publicity stunt that achieved it's aim. Islam4uk called the march off themselves on Sunday.

The fact you and others believe this ban is a ban on the march as well is really sad, shows that we still eat up everything we are told in unreliable news reports.

 

[Lethul]

OT:

Halal meat, why oh why do I see this in my store?

 

[Aoami]

What?

 

[Raven]

So that Muslims can buy it presumably

 

[Ch3tan]

OT:

Halal meat, why oh why do I see this in my store?

Does it actually worry you that your meat can also be eaten by muslims or jews? Wow.

 

[Chronictank]

So what you're saying is that if the nazi party were to rise now, Hitler and Mengele should be prosocuted but the party should be allowed to live on? Tenuous i know, but it gets the point across.

If the nazi leadership was prosecuted the party possibly would never have got off the ground

Islam4uk, under whatever guise they come up with, are an organization with very strong links to previous terrorist attacks. Choudary is a very clever bloke, and presents his case in a very calm manner, but he is just the visible side of the organisation. No one really knows what goes on behind the scenes. In that video i posted, he laughs about 'al-Qaeda training camps' saying such things don't exist, and while it's never been proven, there is pretty strong evidence to suggest they do.

As i said before, if there was real proof against him he would have been prosecuted..
And Islam4UK has no links to terrorist attacks, Mr Choudary's previous organisation may have

When people say 'well you wouldn't ban the BNP for the same thing etc', I say 'no, I wouldn't'. As soon as the BNP start planning mass cullings of black and asian people they should be stopped,

neither does Islam4UK, Mr Choudarys possibly (although he hasn't been prosecuted so again this is just guesswork and rumor) planned stuff but again this is his personal (and associates) actions not the action of the group as a whole...
Unless ofc the majority decided on the action, which i doubt

but you can't ban people for talking.

Which is exactly why you can't ban that group either, we are talking about Islam4UK not any of its affiliates, no doubt there are members of the group who had nothing to do with the previous Choudary parties you are silencing them too.

Why are people so willing to sleepwalk into a police state :S, this is exactly the knee-jerk reaction which got those ridiculous anti-terror laws passed

 

[Lethul]

Does it actually worry you that your meat can also be eaten by muslims or jews? Wow.

No, but I think the Halal way is animal cruelty

 

[noblok]

No, but I think the Halal way is animal cruelty

You're killing animals anyway, those few seconds of extra suffering are pretty insignificant.

Note: I'm a vegetarian, but I have no problem with halal food. My grandfather used to butcher his own sheep and that was probably more cruel than the halal way (he didn't go out of his way to make them experience as little stress as possible). I really never had a problem with that.

 

[Chronictank]

I agree with noblok, but bear in mind most Halal butchers nowadays stun the animals first (which causes controversy itself within the community)

 

[Ch3tan]

No, but I think the Halal way is animal cruelty

as meat eaters if we want to worry about animal cruelty we should be far more concerned with how the animals are farmed in the first place, the conditions they live in and what they are fed. It always makes me laugh when we talk about how we kill them instead.

 

[Lethul]

as meat eaters if we want to worry about animal cruelty we should be far more concerned with how the animals are farmed in the first place, the conditions they live in and what they are fed. It always makes me laugh when we talk about how we kill them instead.

I never said I didn't have other concerns about it tho?
I'm also a big hypocrite since I for example love sport fishing

But this is another topic and I'm sorry I derailed the thread, lets get it back on topic instead.

 

[Aoami]

As i said before, if there was real proof against him he would have been prosecuted..
And Islam4UK has no links to terrorist attacks, Mr Choudary's previous organisation may have

David Berkowitz didn't kill anyone in prison, but I wouldn't want him living next to me after he was released. Better safe than sorry imo. I'm struggling to see what the big issue is here. A group containing people with links to terrorist attacks has been banned. It's not like a load of people have been rounded up and lynched for being muslim.

Which is exactly why you can't ban that group either, we are talking about Islam4UK not any of its affiliates, no doubt there are members of the group who had nothing to do with the previous Choudary parties you are silencing them too.

What? Again, the government have banned a group, not stuffed gags down peoples throats. There are 58 organisations banned in the UK under the terrorist acts, Al-Qaeda amoung them. It has never been proven Al-Qaeda did 9/11, so they should be allowed to actively recruit in the UK, right?

Why are people so willing to sleepwalk into a police state :S, this is exactly the knee-jerk reaction which got those ridiculous anti-terror laws passed

Police State, aite. Attempting to curtail terrorism with pointless banning gestures, Police State.

People really don't know how good they've fucking got it.