Jews, & Adolf

[throdgrain]

Actually, it does come over like that.

 

[Gwadien]

I really don't think he thought out that kind of scenario in eradicating Zionism, because if anything, if he wanted to do that, he could have kept them just as he did, since they were spread across Europe in smaller pockets, they weren't exactly dominant in any part of Europe in terms of numbers.

It was more of a case that he wanted the Aryan race to be the dominant force in Europe, and he eradicated the threat of the financial wealth and high places in society that the Jews held - (Generals, Teachers, Politicians) because he realised if he embarked on this campaign, religion would bind them against Hitler.

The only reason that he acted in the way he did is because he couldn't directly remove Jews from their position of power, otherwise there would be a sharp resistance, instead, slowly degrading their position in society as a whole turned out a much more efficient technique.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Not being funny, but Scouse is pretty much a Jew-hater.

I disagree with that. Scouse hates Israel, but I cannot remember a hate post against Jews. Well some might come close but within context I always assumed it was about Israel. I might disagree with him on lots of things but to say that is way overboard. Israel and Jews are not always the same.

As for Hitler you mention Munich, this is incorrect it was Vienna he tried to get into an art study or sell art.
Theories that I was told was that a Jewish prostitute gave him syphilis and another that Jewish relatives did not want to give him (or his family) money.
I personally think it was more cynical he wanted power and would do anything to get it. Easiest way was to blame the Jews. Create an enemy that would always be there and not change their political mind (communist etc)
In Munich he had his first coupe attempt that failed and also there are some claims he was involved with the Bavarian Soviet Republic..
As for the WW1 part well Hitlers commander and the man who got him a reward that was normally for officers was of German and Jewish origin.

 

[Scouse]

Actually, it does come over like that.

That's only because we're conditioned not to say anything negative about jews ever. EVER.

On pain of being painted antisemitic.


I don't want to burn them - I'm no hitler - but I want their stupid ass religion and idiotic exclude-everyone-else ways to stop.

I also want catholics to stop being pious arseholes and muslims to stop blowing people to kingdom come and mistreating their women - and I can say that about these two idiot cults freely and people don't blink.

Say the same about the jews? Oh noes!

Fuck that. I'm not going to feel guilty for saying people are idiots for following stupid religions - especially not one that overtly looks down on everyone else and hoards wealth and power the way that's ingrained in that particular religion.

I've first-hand experience of being on the wrong end of their bullshit. As I have with christians and muslims.

They're not getting let off just because some kraut tried to exterminate them.

I disagree with that. Scouse hates Israel, but I cannot remember a hate post against Jews.

I'm glad you can make the distinction.

Hate the ideas. Hate the religion. Love the people.

Always.

 

[Bigmac]

I have been thinking about this for some time now. When and where in Adolfs life did he get the idea to exterminate those "filthy jews". There must have been an underlaying factor to this. How did he get everyone onboard this? Was there a concencus decision making or did the whole Nazi party just rise in their chars and all agreed they needed to go for the good of the country & world. Also, did it go hand in hand with his interest in creating a superpower and eventually taking over the world? Hmm. Also, did the whole Jew incident overshadow any other of Adolfs struggles?

No clue, for all we know he might have been bummed by a Jew and got jealous of his horse size penis.

 

[Job]

Hitlers ideas were not madness.in fact they were pretty wel mainstream at the time.he just actually decided to do it....as for the jews...that was easy...most people didnt like jews and you naive young uns will find out in your lifetime that the idea of a perfect race is still alive and well.

 

[Fafnir]

If Hitler was not mad then he became it thanks to his meds he got from the doctor.

Amphetamines, Belladonna, Atropine, Cocaine (via eye drops), Methamphetamine, Morphine, strychnine etc etc etc etc....

 

[Gwadien]

As for Hitler you mention Munich, this is incorrect it was Vienna he tried to get into an art study or sell art.

Are you sure?

I thought he went to Germany first, because he joined the Germany army, not the Austrian army.

 

[rynnor]

If Hitler was not mad then he became it thanks to his meds he got from the doctor.

In his final years he was suffering from something like Parkinsons disease - theres lots of debate as to what it actually was.

 

[Bahumat]

I was under the impression from the Lawrence Rees 'Nazi's, a warning from history' book that World War 1 ended prematurely for the Germans because of a lack of money. They simply could not afford to keep the war going.
The German people had a lot of pride and felt like they were let down for stopping it (I guess they thought they were going to win).

Due to the economic crisis the nation were upset and wanted someone to blame. Hitler said the people who made these decisions (or were advised) were Jewish and that it was their fault.

At that time in history the populace were pissed off and poor. They hated the government and the other main political party were Communists which is something they also wanted to avoid. The Nazi party were effectively the best of a bad bunch (remember, the end game plan to eradicate the jews was not exactly revealed on day 1 so they probably did not sound too crazy). Hitler was charismatic and kept saying "look what your government has done to Germany. Join the Nazi's and we will make German strong again".

 

[DaGaffer]

Churchill wrote a paper on zionism. He said it was a real problem. And it is.

That's hardly a recommendation. Churchill had some pretty dubious views about a lot of things. Great war leader, terrible bigot.

It's funny how history depicts 'great leaders', if Hitler is mad for what he did, you can pretty much call all 'Great Leaders' in history 'mad' for they all committed some sort of crime for what they saw as the greater good.

There's actually quite a bit of evidence that the most effective company CEOs are psychopaths. When talking about "madness" there's a such an enormous range of behaviours that it fairly meaningless to discuss it so long as the person concerned can function in society. I also think its very easy to play the whole "he was a nutter, wasn't he?" card because it diverts people from a far more disturbing truth; the Third Reich was not the work of a few madmen at the top, most of German society was actively complicit in all of the worst excesses of Nazism. There's been an ongoing attempt to play that down, but if you look at the actual evidence, the whole nation was "mad". (And before anyone has a pop at me about it, my personal experience of Germans has always been positive, I've not yet met a German I didn't like, which is more than I can say for the British!). What was it about Germany in particular that allowed this collective madness to take root? Because it didn't happen in other totalitarian countries (fascism was always a minority view in Italy for instance), or even in Russia (where the majority were repressed by a minority).

I was making the distinction that Judaism is a religion - like catholicism. I reserve the same contempt for Jews on their religious beliefs that I do catholics.

However, I don't hate the people - just their ideas.

Black people have no choice about the colour of their skin - that's what I meant...

I don't think its that simple. Its extremely difficult to separate Jewish identity into little boxes "culture", "religion", "ethnicity" etc. Its all bound together in a way that its simply not for Europeans, where religion and culture can be prised apart (not without difficulty in some cases, but it can be done) and ethnicity is fairly irrelevant (a slight north/south ethnic divide but its trivial really). While you may argue its different if you're black because you don't have a choice, I don't think its much different for a jew (certainly not historically), where Jews were identified as "other" as much by stereotypes about their physical appearance as anything else, and Ashkenazi Jews in particular are a very distinct ethnic group.

Now, do I think your point about hating their beliefs is wrong? Actually, no, because I'm not a big believer in cultural relativism, but at the same time I think its next to impossible to separate the Jew from the belief, which is probably where a lot of the historical problems come from (the ones that weren't of our own making anyway - "Christendom" has a lot to answer for when it comes to Jewish identity).

 

[Scouse]

I don't disagree with much of what you say there Gaff, but:

Jews were identified as "other" as much by stereotypes about their physical appearance as anything else, and Ashkenazi Jews in particular are a very distinct ethnic group.

This is, at the very basic level, down to a religion that makes it difficult for them to mix with non-Jews.

It's the religion that is, ultimately, causal here. And I don't give two shits if it's "difficult" to separate it out from their culture. When a culture is so heavily influenced by a religion that culture is a fair target.

There's actually quite a bit of evidence that the most effective company CEOs are psychopaths.

This is true - apart from the "most" bit - just "many" would suffice

 

[DaGaffer]

This is, at the very basic level, down to a religion that makes it difficult for them to mix with non-Jews.

It's the religion that is, ultimately, causal here. And I don't give two shits if it's "difficult" to separate it out from their culture. When a culture is so heavily influenced by a religion that culture is a fair target.

Yeah but there's a massive contradiction here. As Throd mentioned in his post; Jews were useful to Christian (and Moslem) nobles and traders because they had no prohibition on lending money at interest, but that same usefulness meant they had to be kept separate, and various perfidious rulers would scapegoat those self-same useful Jews when they didn't get what they want (which is why King John kicked them out of England for example).

Its difficult to criticise them for being insular when we've spent millenia reinforcing that separation. And for the record, Judaism is a far less damaging religion than Christianity or Islam. It doesn't proselytise, it doesn't want to expand; which is surely better than its two sister religions who've spent centuries expanding their reach with bullets, swords and missionaries. (Of course its very exclusiveness is what I think pisses people off; nothing like calling yourself God's Chosen People to get right up people's noses, especially back when that nonsense actually mattered).

I'm firmly of the belief that the behaviour of the Jews today, is a problem of our own making (both the Christian and Islamic world). Doesn't mean I like it, but I do understand it, and unlike say, our "responsibility" for the slave trade or other ills of the world, we've not really done much to atone for it, or even recognise that we're part of the problem.

 

[Scouse]

I won't disagree with you over the historical cultural issues. However, I still don't see that as a cause for going easy on Judaeism in a post-enlightenment era.

A society based on reason not on supersition, institutional "racism" and bat-shittery

 

[throdgrain]

That's only because we're conditioned not to say anything negative about jews ever. EVER.

On pain of being painted antisemitic.


I don't want to burn them - I'm no hitler - but I want their stupid ass religion and idiotic exclude-everyone-else ways to stop.

I also want catholics to stop being pious arseholes and muslims to stop blowing people to kingdom come and mistreating their women - and I can say that about these two idiot cults freely and people don't blink.

Say the same about the jews? Oh noes!

Fuck that. I'm not going to feel guilty for saying people are idiots for following stupid religions - especially not one that overtly looks down on everyone else and hoards wealth and power the way that's ingrained in that particular religion.

I've first-hand experience of being on the wrong end of their bullshit. As I have with christians and muslims.

They're not getting let off just because some kraut tried to exterminate them.




I'm glad you can make the distinction.

Hate the ideas. Hate the religion. Love the people.

Always.

I disagree actually, the internet appears to have condition all it's users to slag off jews, and make it seem alright, yet the same people go mad about any other race/religion, and call you a racist. I actually suspect South Park had sometihng to do with it!

 

[Scouse]

I disagree actually, the internet appears to have condition all it's users to slag off jews, and make it seem alright, yet the same people go mad about any other race/religion, and call you a racist. I actually suspect South Park had sometihng to do with it!

I can't disagree more strongly - but then maybe I simply don't frequent sites where I see it.

If we take the internet out of the argument - and talk "real life" - I can opine about christianity and islam in the pub all I like and people will either disagree or agree with me. If I open my mouth about jews, for any reason, I get people trying to move the conversation on, people figeting and looking embarrassed and people who plain outright make accusations of "anti-semitic".

The jews are some sort of sanctified protected cause since WWII. People have perfectly understandable sympathy over the holocaust (which the vast majority of jews alive today never experienced) but seem to get this confused when you're having a pop at their religion and culture.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Scouse may be anti-semitic, but he's an equal opportunity anti-semitic. He hates all religions, groups, races, ideas equally if he hates them.

Anti-semitic isn't abiut jews alone afterall, saying so would be...well...anti-semitic!

 

[DaGaffer]

I can't disagree more strongly - but then maybe I simply don't frequent sites where I see it.

If we take the internet out of the argument - and talk "real life" - I can opine about christianity and islam in the pub all I like and people will either disagree or agree with me. If I open my mouth about jews, for any reason, I get people trying to move the conversation on, people figeting and looking embarrassed and people who plain outright make accusations of "anti-semitic".

The jews are some sort of sanctified protected cause since WWII. People have perfectly understandable sympathy over the holocaust (which the vast majority of jews alive today never experienced) but seem to get this confused when you're having a pop at their religion and culture.

But that was my point above. If you were down the pub slagging off Judaism your analogy with Christianity and Islam would be valid, but people don't do that, they slag off the Jews, because its almost impossible to separate the two, and hence the discomfort.

 

[Scouse]

But that was my point above. If you were down the pub slagging off Judaism your analogy with Christianity and Islam would be valid, but people don't do that, they slag off the Jews, because its almost impossible to separate the two, and hence the discomfort.

Jews are practicers of judaeism - as christians are practicers of chrisitianity. Nobody blinks an eye when you slag off "christians" rather than "christianity" - so they shouldn't blink if you slag off the jews.

"The Jews" are not a race of people - they're people who practice a religion. Whether I choose to say "Judaeism" or "doity jews" shouldn't make any difference tbfh. Its a distinction that practicioners of that religion would like to keep - as it in some way makes them "special".

But they're not. They're just like any other idiot who practices <insert religion here> and deserve a good, intellectual, kicking for it

 

[DaGaffer]

"The Jews" are not a race of people - they're people who practice a religion.

Sorry, I disagree. That's too simplistic.

 

[Scouse]

Sorry, I disagree. That's too simplistic.

I think it's accurate. The root cause of everything about their culture is their religious belief.

So we're just going to disagree here I guess

 

[mr.Blacky]

Are you sure?

I thought he went to Germany first, because he joined the Germany army, not the Austrian army.

he did not join the Austrian army as it had too many nationalities at that time he was already a German nationalist. Before he joined up he lived in Vienna, he was born in Austria, trying to be an artist. He did not get in and was advised to become an architect.

 

[Talivar]

On the subject of being mad, didnt he also spend vast fortunes sending his soldiers all over the globe looking for supernatural artifacts. Aswell as the fact he beleived the germans descended from the german version of Atlantis and the mythical Aryan Race?. Or was that just indiana jones!

 

[opticle]

On the subject of being mad, didnt he also spend vast fortunes sending his soldiers all over the globe looking for supernatural artifacts. Aswell as the fact he beleived the germans descended from the german version of Atlantis and the mythical Aryan Race?. Or was that just indiana jones!

He went into the space between spaces.

 

[Talivar]

Hollow Earth or the Moon!

 

[fettoken]

Breivik obviously did not learn a thing. You can't go around killing people from the get go. You have to get really famous, powerful and in control, THEN.

 

[TdC]

I disagree actually, the internet appears to have condition all it's users to slag off jews, and make it seem alright, yet the same people go mad about any other race/religion, and call you a racist. I actually suspect South Park had sometihng to do with it!

tbh Throdbacon I am quite the SP fan, and Cartman's endless harping on is sometimes irritating as hell. that said, SP does expose Cartman to be a complete hypocrite...which is kind of the point of him I guess.

Jews are practicers of judaeism - as christians are practicers of chrisitianity. Nobody blinks an eye when you slag off "christians" rather than "christianity" - so they shouldn't blink if you slag off the jews.

I was originally wrongly informed: one CAN actually become a Jew by conversion (but they're not really easy about it imo.) Ok, so if you can convert then I would postulate saying someone is a Jew denotes that someone's religious belief system and not their ethnicity.

 

[Scouse]

I was originally wrongly informed: one CAN actually become a Jew by conversion (but they're not really easy about it imo.) Ok, so if you can convert then I would postulate saying someone is a Jew denotes that someone's religious belief system and not their ethnicity.

Yup. You can. The "ethnic group" lie is because it lends weight to their claim for a "homeland" - like they're a different ethnic group from a certain place rather than a bunch of sky-fairy worshippers.

The typical jewish phenotype is down to restricted breeding pool. Simple as that.

Have a look here about interfaith marriage and conversion. And to settle any doubt that it's a religion, not a race:

once the conversion procedure is complete, the convert is as much a Jew as anyone who is born to the religion

I can't see a black man converting to white, or vice versa, and them being "as much the other colour as anyone who was born it".


*refrains from Michael Jackson joke*

 

[Lamp]

We have Jewish friends. We go over to dinner. Proper home-made Jewish chicken soup is pure awesomeness. A load of pepper in it, and it will beat the flu.

Not all Jews have big noses, horns on their heads, are hand-rubbing curly-haired short-arsed money grabbers and control the media.

But Alan Sugar is still a cunt. No matter what religion he is. He might sit in the House of Lords and have a billion quid in the bank, but he's a cunt.

 

[DaGaffer]

I was originally wrongly informed: one CAN actually become a Jew by conversion (but they're not really easy about it imo.) Ok, so if you can convert then I would postulate saying someone is a Jew denotes that someone's religious belief system and not their ethnicity.

No one suggested that "jewishness" was an exclusively ethnic distinction; its clearly not, although there are degrees of ethnicity within the Jewish population (and Scouse it hardly matters if its due to inbreeding, you could make the same argument for loads of ethnic groups). This is my point, its not as simple as saying its their religion (there are more than a few Jewish atheists for a start); its an ethnic-cultural-religious soup that defies simplistic analysis despite the best efforts of certain people to portray it that way.