News Islamification of Britain

[Krazeh]

Krazeh, ignoring the fluff, did you see the post I made regarding Rynnors points?

Yeah but I don't agree with your assessment of his statements. I agree that not all scientific theories are right or can be/have been proven and I don't think I stated anything to the contrary in my posts. The problem I had with Rynnor's statements was that, to me, they seemed to be implying that a) scientists just made stuff up with no basis in order to fill in "gaps" in our understanding and b) that having a belief in an unproven theory was no different than a belief in god despite the fact that theories are based on the results of previous experimentation, mathematical models, observational data etc which gives us a rational basis for believing the theory is correct to the best of our knowledge.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Ignoring the grumpy pants;

I agree that there's some similarity of belief with an unproven theory and something that hasn't been proven to exist. Essentially, neither of those are really proven to an extent like, errr...well...penissilin

And sometimes it DOES feel like scientists are making sh*t up, can't deny that feeling.

Then there's ofcourse the whole feelings thing(like love) which isn't really proven(i think?), but exists.

 

[DaGaffer]

Glad to see when you say "off-topic" you mean it; this thread has gone right off the reservation.

Getting back on-topic; the number of islamic converts is pretty much entirely down to women "marrying in" and having to convert. Doesn't mean they necessarily believe a word of it; and you have that nice little Islamic rule that means once you've joined the club, you're never off the rolls; no room for apostasy in islam. And 100K people out 60M is fuck all anyway.

I wonder how many so-called moslems go to the mosque every week (or every day)?

 

[megadave]

What about Muslims that convert to Christianity or become agnostic/atheist ? I knew a few guys in college who did didn't believe, although sometimes they had to sort of keep going with it because of intense family pressure.

 

[Lamp]

feelings thing(like love) which isn't really proven(i think?), but exists.

*cough* oxytocin *cough*

 

[old.Tohtori]

*cough* oxytocin *cough*

When i say "i think?", it usually means "Do say if it has been proven".

Going a-holeishly *cough*blaaa*cough* doesn't really explain it now does it

 

[rynnor]

Dark matter isn't just some fudge they came up with to fill in the gaps, it's a theory that's come about from seeing that what we observe doesn't match up with what were current mathematical models on how things should look. We can infer from what we can see that there should be more mass out there than there appears to be, there needs to be a reason for that. What would you suggest we do instead of coming up with new theories to explain the errors in existing theories/mathematical models?

If the theory doesnt match the data then the theory is wrong - you dont usually invent invisible fudge to fix the theory - occams razor applies. If its not a fudge then can you please show me where anyone has actually observed dark matter or to some definition of what its composed of

And you know that none of this is based on existing proven frameworks? And is just a bunch of stuff made up by scientists to fill in the gaps? Or is it just that you, and I and most other people, don't actually understand things like quantum mechanics or the vast amount of mathematics and experimental work it's based on?

Your faith is touching but tbh quantum physics hasnt really moved on from 60 years ago. We have found lots of applications for the formulae but we still dont understand what these things describe. We dont even know what an electron really is - we can describe it in terms of spin, charge etc but whats going on inside there is a black box.

The problem with quantum physics is that from some relatively basic experiments crazy towers of thought have been built - like observers effecting the results or the alternate realities theory.

 

[Turamber]

the way Islam targets young people does not sit well with me at all.

Its young people who are mostly drawn to religion or politics. They are young, the world is new to them and they're exploring their place in it. Young people tend to be more fanatical about most things - just look at the way they embrace new music, new ideas, new fashions.

Older people have a lifetime of experience and a lifetime of thinking in the same way they always have. They tend to be set in their ways and less likely to change the habits of their past.

In short I don't think any religion is targetting young people, they are just much more likely to make changes in their life.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Rynnor the problem here is, that while science types like to say the old "Problem with religion is that it can't be touched", saying soemthing like "A theory with holes is not a proper theory" doesn't go down that well

It's quite interesting to see the similarity in denial on the subject of any persons choice, because it's not the topic that is immune to criticism, it's the person

For example, i for one was wrong(after personal checking up) on the earth creating a force around earth that pushes, as i misunderstood what someone was talking about as they meant the einstein theory thingy - think it as part that "sometimes space and other sh*t push" etc.

But making such a statement, of being wrong none the less, is not in the books of avid fans of anything.

 

[Ch3tan]

Its young people who are mostly drawn to religion or politics. They are young, the world is new to them and they're exploring their place in it. Young people tend to be more fanatical about most things - just look at the way they embrace new music, new ideas, new fashions.

Older people have a lifetime of experience and a lifetime of thinking in the same way they always have. They tend to be set in their ways and less likely to change the habits of their past.

In short I don't think any religion is targetting young people, they are just much more likely to make changes in their life.

Yes true, just in my experience in south London I see active recruitment. I have no problem with people exploring their options, but the way I've seen it done is insidious and aggressive.

What really makes me laugh are the amount of gang members that are muslim. So they rob, deal drugs, fight etc. But they worship Allah. Lulz. Celebrity converts make me laugh too. Like when Wu Tang Clan went Islam... their lyrics hardly fit the religion.

 

[Krazeh]

If the theory doesnt match the data then the theory is wrong - you dont usually invent invisible fudge to fix the theory - occams razor applies. If its not a fudge then can you please show me where anyone has actually observed dark matter or to some definition of what its composed of

They haven't invented an invisible fudge to fix the theory; they've said there's something out there that is creating more mass than we can visibly account for, we shall call this thing 'dark matter' and work towards figuring out exactly what dark matter is. Which is why scientists are spending years of their lives coming up with hypotheses, theories and experiments to both describe and detect dark matter. You seem to be under the impression that dark matter was simply thought up because someone got some maths wrong somewhere and it didn't match up with what we saw, it's a lot more complex than that and there are things we can see and infer from that lead us to the conclusion that there is an awful lot of mass out there that for some reason we can't see.

Your faith is touching but tbh quantum physics hasnt really moved on from 60 years ago. We have found lots of applications for the formulae but we still dont understand what these things describe. We dont even know what an electron really is - we can describe it in terms of spin, charge etc but whats going on inside there is a black box.

The problem with quantum physics is that from some relatively basic experiments crazy towers of thought have been built - like observers effecting the results or the alternate realities theory.

Oh, I didn't realise you were an expert in quantum mechanics or particle physics, perhaps you can go tell all the people working with particle accelerators or in the field of quantum mechanics that they can all pack up and go home because it's all made up and that we don't really have a clue what's going on. Or perhaps, just perhaps, they do know more than you and they actually do have a clue as to what is going on and what it all means even if you don't?

 

[old.Tohtori]

What kind of recruitment? If you don't mind me asking?

America style military recruit offices? People with pamflets?(people actually stop for those?! )

Because i would assume, that teenagers wouldn't gie two f*cks about anything else outside their friends/twatter/facebleh.

 

[Krazeh]

Rynnor the problem here is, that while science types like to say the old "Problem with religion is that it can't be touched", saying soemthing like "A theory with holes is not a proper theory" doesn't go down that well

It depends on what the holes are and whether they are actually holes or a misunderstanding by the person viewing the theory.

For example, i for one was wrong(after personal checking up) on the earth creating a force around earth that pushes, as i misunderstood what someone was talking about as they meant the einstein theory thingy - think it as part that "sometimes space and other sh*t push" etc.

But making such a statement, of being wrong none the less, is not in the books of avid fans of anything.

No, you can make such a statement, just be expected to be called out on it and to have to back up your claims.

 

[rynnor]

I keep hearing stories about the prisons being fertile recruiting grounds for islam and people converting for protection - anyone else heard that?

 

[ECA]

The more muslims the better, less demand for bacon = cheaper bacon.

 

[old.Tohtori]

It depends on what the holes are and whether they are actually holes or a misunderstanding by the person viewing the theory.

No, you can make such a statement, just be expected to be called out on it and to have to back up your claims.

I'd say it depends on the person presenting the theory. Some are avid in defense, some are more open, but you can see it here very often that the words "i was wrong" don't apply

By the statement bit; i meant that making a statement "I'm wrong" is a rare sight.

 

[Billargh]

YouTube - Brendon Burns So I Suppose THIS Is Offensive Now Part 2

"I'm trying to convert Britain to Islam"

"Ahahahah! Britain, a predominately white nation that is yet to convert to Christianity. Britain, a country that is yet to convert to the fucking metric system"

Skip to about 2:10.

 

[rynnor]

Oh, I didn't realise you were an expert in quantum mechanics or particle physics, perhaps you can go tell all the people working with particle accelerators or in the field of quantum mechanics that they can all pack up and go home because it's all made up and that we don't really have a clue what's going on. Or perhaps, just perhaps, they do know more than you and they actually do have a clue as to what is going on and what it all means even if you don't?

I had a feeling you would go down this path but its fruitless to argue over which of us knows the most quantum theory. I didnt say they were just making it up but if you build a theory from observing an experiment theres no inherent barrier to prevent you from making up a nonsense theory especially if no-one can prove it either way.

If they 'had a clue' as you put it you would expect things to have moved on in 60 years no?

 

[fettoken]

The thing is, the "harm of religion" is cooked up by the anti-religion, it's in most cases not even real.

Also a big weapon is generalising all religion and religious people in the same form, which is complete douchebaaggery bullcrap again.

Like your claim that religion is devolving people, nothing to back that up except the thought that "i'm better then you 'cause i don't have religion in my life, thus i is smarter".

No fact in it, just highhorsing on a toyhorse none the less.

So, who would you call most harmful then? An avarage europee or a religious extremist?

 

[rynnor]

You seem to be under the impression that dark matter was simply thought up because someone got some maths wrong somewhere and it didn't match up with what we saw

That isnt what I'm saying - it was figured that there was not enough mass in the visible universe to explain the universes rate of expansion. Now at this point you have two choices -A: infer a bunch of invisible mass so that it all works out again or B: figure your missing something fundamental and go back to the drawing board and come up with a new theory.

A seems to have been the popular choice but it doesnt pass the Occams razor test - imagine if every time data didnt match theories we made up invisible pixie dust to make it work - do you think thats a good scientific basis then?

 

[old.Tohtori]

So, who would you call most harmful then? An avarage europee or a religious extremist?

That's really a non question really, an extremist(usually, not always) is more harmful.

But i've stated my stance on extremists(of any lifestyle) before

What's your point thar?

 

[Job]

Trust me people , this is not even an issue.
Islam is under threat from western culture and secularism.
In fact all religous belief is in freefall, waking up and smelling the roses
will destroy all the old cults.
Of course these brainless pillocks only invent new ones, but that's a whole new story.
Money ,power ,greed, started al the great religions and will bring them down too.

 

[Raven]

Actually, I think they were started in an effort to explain things that people didn't understand. Its only in the last thousand years or so that they have made it a business.

 

[Job]

1sy day: Here's what I believe and I want you to believe it too.
2nd day: Here's a list of rules.
3rd day: It's a quid to be in the club.

 

[Lamp]

that Brendon Burns gig is brilliant - worth watching the whole thing

 

[cHodAX]

and who knows what other religions will have popped up by then, maybe we will or be scientologists... or apathists "you know, whatever..."

The real gods shall return, the Goa'uld will crush all heretics! Fear the power of the System Lords!

 

[Krazeh]

That isnt what I'm saying - it was figured that there was not enough mass in the visible universe to explain the universes rate of expansion. Now at this point you have two choices -A: infer a bunch of invisible mass so that it all works out again or B: figure your missing something fundamental and go back to the drawing board and come up with a new theory.

A seems to have been the popular choice but it doesnt pass the Occams razor test - imagine if every time data didnt match theories we made up invisible pixie dust to make it work - do you think thats a good scientific basis then?

Except that's not why dark matter was postulated. It was postulated because calculating the mass of a cluster of galaxies based on the number of galaxies and it's total brightness was far far far lower than the mass calculated by using the motion of galaxies at the edge of the cluster. The kinetic energy in the cluster was far higher than it could be based on the amount of visible mass. So either a proven theorem turns out to be wrong when applied to the calculation of the mass of cluster of galaxies or there's additional mass hidden away somewhere that we can't see. Now seeing we have proof for the theorem it doesn't seem to me that the simplest explanation is in fact that it's wrong. Altho i'm sure that when the results came through they were checked, double checked and triple checked before they looked at other things it could be like, I dunno, mass that we were currently unable to detect.

And no, I don't think making up invisible fairy dust to match data to theories would be a good scientific basis but that's not what happened with regards to dark matter and I don't think it's something that happens in any other reputable scientific work.

 

[Madmaxx]

YouTube - Brendon Burns So I Suppose THIS Is Offensive Now Part 2

"I'm trying to convert Britain to Islam"

"Ahahahah! Britain, a predominately white nation that is yet to convert to Christianity. Britain, a country that is yet to convert to the fucking metric system"

Skip to about 2:10.

lol i didnt read the thread, but this is good.

 

[BloodOmen]

you can take the fatties and chavs thats fine teach them the ways of thy peaceful religion *cough*

 

[fettoken]

That's really a non question really, an extremist(usually, not always) is more harmful.

But i've stated my stance on extremists(of any lifestyle) before

What's your point thar?

My point is that any person that is a threat to free living should be considered harmful.