Question Is minimising your tax bill "morally wrong"?

[rynnor]

Defence, law enforcement, education, basic health and social welfare. A certain amount of tax is necessary to give the bare minimum required for a functioning society. In reality there are other things the state has to do that simply wouldn't be economic for the private sector to supply (3/4 of the road network for example). Efficiency isn't the first or only requirement of a functioning society, so no, individuals couldn't completely decide what they do and don't want to pay for.

True but there's a certain innate tendency for governments to want to do everything (particularly new labour) which leads to high taxation. Its the classic big government/small government arguement but out of the usual inability to make real decisions the UK sits somewhere in the middle (though it has moved significantly towards the big end in the last 20 years or so).

 

[Wazzerphuk]

If I had the other half of my earnings I could pay for all of that - is it really an essential function of the state that my rubbish is collected or which dentists I use?

If you leave it to individuals its in their interests to get the best deal so its always going to be more effecient?

You must be on hella wedge if you can afford to build your own fucking roads.

 

[DaGaffer]

True but there's a certain innate tendency for governments to want to do everything (particularly new labour) which leads to high taxation. Its the classic big government/small government arguement but out of the usual inability to make real decisions the UK sits somewhere in the middle (though it has moved significantly towards the big end in the last 20 years or so).

Agreed, but what you were advocating was no government, which is a whole different argument. Once you've signed up to the principle of the state doing something, then taxes are inevitable; arguing about how much tax you should pay is valid, arguing you should pay none, isn't.

 

[rynnor]

You must be on hella wedge if you can afford to build your own fucking roads.

Dont you mean maintain since we already have a road network last time I looked out the window? Make it all toll roads and users can pay.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Where do you think the roads came from? If we had what you were proposing we wouldn't have any to maintain. And if you think they're cheap to maintain, you're very very wrong.

 

[Embattle]

I came here to say some similar but you've beaten me to it with a lucid and succinctly written post. I couldn't agree more.

It is Scouse so he has it lasered in to his brain as seen many times before and for obvious reasons.

I do find it morally questionable and always will, I think what makes it worse is the glass houses effect mention earlier with regard to Mr Carr but he isn't the first and certainly won't be the last.

Personally I think our tax system sucks, but then it does tend to fit how the government has evolved over time to be slow and generally sucky.

 

[Lamp]

If your accountant said I can dramatically cut down your tax liability and its 100% legal, would you do it? Of course. If its legal, its legal. Carr's committed no crime. Fuck morality. Sounds like the politics of envy to me. And last time I looked, the completely legal private tax arrangements of an individual are no one else's business.

 

[Tom]

Where do you think the roads came from? If we had what you were proposing we wouldn't have any to maintain. And if you think they're cheap to maintain, you're very very wrong.

Almost all the major trunk roads in and out of towns and cities were originally designed and built with private money. Pedestrians used turnpikes for nothing, horses + carts paid a fee.

It was the same with bridges, too. Some of the bridges between Manchester and Salford were funded by tolls.

 

[DaGaffer]

If your accountant said I can dramatically cut down your tax liability and its 100% legal, would you do it? Of course. If its legal, its legal. Carr's committed no crime. Fuck morality. Sounds like the politics of envy to me. And last time I looked, the completely legal private tax arrangements of an individual are no one else's business.

No, its the hypocracy of having a pop at Bankers' tax avoidance efforts on 8 out of 10 cats, when you're busily doing exactly the same thing.

 

[Lamp]

Do you normally volunteer to pay way more tax than you have to? So why should he?

 

[Scouse]

How can it be "morally wrong" for individuals, but correct and proper for organisations?

This is the crux of the problem. It can't be.

So, unless and until that is sorted out (fat chance) then any individual who avoids tax legally isn't bottom feeding scum using a "loophole"- it's a normal guy refusing to be an idiot.

Anyone who thinks they should volunteer their money to someone else is a sheep and a retard - it's an easily solvable problem (flat rate) - but the rich won't pay so the problem won't be solved.

Simple.

 

[Scouse]

Unlucky Scouse, you are a massive hypocrite.

I've always argued that no sane human cuts their nose off to spite their face.

You don't have to give your money away for free to hold an opinion - and for that opinion to be perfectly valid.

You seem to want humans to act, well, un-human.... Systemic change or no change...


You give me a vote that makes me pay, say, 50% tax for a "better society"* - along with everyone else - then I'll vote for it.

Otherwise any argument (i.e. yours) is retarded



*not the systemic change I'm after btw, but for the purposes of demostration...

 

[Raven]

Ah, good old "waiting for systematic change"

If everyone thought like that, nothing would ever change.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Almost all the major trunk roads in and out of towns and cities were originally designed and built with private money. Pedestrians used turnpikes for nothing, horses + carts paid a fee.

It was the same with bridges, too. Some of the bridges between Manchester and Salford were funded by tolls.

Yeah true but the times were very very different and aren't really as comparable now. Especially since the population boom.

 

[Job]

The problem is the tax system is so monumentally complicated and bloated that loopholes pop up everywhere and it has become that way because of the self interests of the financial services, get rid of the fucking lot of useless scroungers and tax everyone at 30& above a 20k threshold, no loopholes, no escape routes,just money in and out.

 

[Tom]

This is all a smokescreen. The government have been busily printing money for the last few years, to reduce our debt burden. Trouble is, that makes everything we buy more expensive and the savings we hold less valuable.

So lets have a pop at a few enterprising individuals for managing to keep their hard-earned cash, rather than the incompetent government that takes it and wastes most of it anyway.

The government recently congratulated itself on coming under-budget on the Olympics. Casually ignoring the fact that that budget was massively, hugely bigger than the original estimate. Cocks.

 

[Raven]

Isnt taxation itself immoral?

I mean its essentially demanding money with menaces by the state.

Personally Id rather spend my own money for all my families services than have to fund a system that takes it off me then squanders it on costly ineffecient services...

For a functioning society you need tax. However, imo the current tax system is rubbish.

"If I ran the country" I would abolish all tax except VAT and set that to 50% or something, along with making it applicable to every purchase/sale, including property, vehicles and whatnot. Easier to manage by the government, fair for everyone, the rich could continue to get paid obscene amounts of money but anything they spend it on would be taxed at the same rate as the guy who earns very little.

 

[rynnor]

The problem is the tax system is so monumentally complicated and bloated that loopholes pop up everywhere and it has become that way because of the self interests of the financial services, get rid of the fucking lot of useless scroungers and tax everyone at 30& above a 20k threshold, no loopholes, no escape routes,just money in and out.

Won't somebody think of the accountants!! If you make tax simple you would make all those lovely taxmen and tax accountants unemployed and upset all those tax havens!!!

 

[Litmus]

How do you sign up for this "tax avoiding scheme?"

 

[Raven]

You need to earn a fair enough chunk to be able to pay people to launder it for you. Set up a LTD company, give all your earnings to that. Pay yourself a small salary and "borrow" the rest from the company. Clean, tax free money!

 

[Tom]

For a functioning society you need tax. However, imo the current tax system is rubbish.

"If I ran the country" I would abolish all tax except VAT and set that to 50% or something, along with making it applicable to every purchase/sale, including property, vehicles and whatnot. Easier to manage by the government, fair for everyone, the rich could continue to get paid obscene amounts of money but anything they spend it on would be taxed at the same rate as the guy who earns very little.

I'm VAT registered. I'd instantly start putting a hell of a lot more items through my business.

 

[Raven]

You could but then there are rules and regulations to stop that. You can't buy any old shit and say "oh but I use it for my business" there was a discussion about it in one of the camera threads I believe.

 

[Ormorof]

is it amusing that now that the public have started clocking on how the rich are finding loopholes ministers suddenly dont want to reveal their taxes?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jun/21/jimmy-carr-ministers-tax-returns

 

[Scouse]

You need to earn a fair enough chunk to be able to pay people to launder it for you. Set up a LTD company, give all your earnings to that. Pay yourself a small salary and "borrow" the rest from the company. Clean, tax free money!

Showing yourself as knowing nothing there Raven.

It costs about 100 quid to set up aas a LTD. You can pay an accountant as little as £200/year. Everything is legal - not "laundered".

You just need some balls to go out and be in business on your own right.


Don't like it? I don't either. You need that systemic change I'm after. But I'm fucked if I'm going to pay like all the other mugs, take it in the ass whilst some corporation earns money off my back for fuck all financial reward and high tax.

So I'm going to use my intellect, my hard work and my freedom of choice to exploit the system, and I'm going to keep on doing it until the fat-and-dumb British public wake the fuck up and force the change. The alternative is too damn depressing to contemplate and I'm not going to turn into a bitter whinger saying "awwww they pay loads less tax than me" and do nothing about it - I'm going to take a piece of the action for myself.

 

[Raven]

I think these offshore accountants are charging a few quid more than "a couple of hundred"

 

[Scouse]

I think these offshore accountants are charging a few quid more than "a couple of hundred"

No doubt. But, like I said, I paid 10% last year and it didn't cost me a fortune. It wasn't a convoluted offshore scheme, it wasn't dodgy and I didn't claim loads of things through the company (a 2TB HDD and an SSD went through and that was it other than mileage).

Capitalism is bent.

 

[Chilly]

How do you sign up for this "tax avoiding scheme?"

The problem is that it doesnt work for the majority of people because we're not contractors. If you are on PAYE, it's extremely difficult to avoid your income tax. If you're a contractor, you have many, varied ways of making PAYE people pay more to make up what you avoid.

I do quite like the idea of everyone exploiting every possible loophole, forcing the govt to take serious action.

 

[Scouse]

The problem is that it doesnt work for the majority of people because we're not contractors.

Just prior to the turn of last century (late 1800's) 96% of Americans owned and ran their own businesses. Now 3% do.

It's the system...

 

[Ch3tan]

No, it's your moral duty to pay as little tax as legally possible.

 

[MYstIC G]

Also, Jimmy Carr is funny. By contrast, Vodaphone are as useless as a chocolate teapot and should be dismantled and the shareholders forced to pay their fucking tax dodge.