Iraq

Ballard

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Anastasia said:
Religion is now, and always has been about exerting control over others. Its a refuge for the weak-minded, and the cause of suffering and intolerance for the entire history of "religious man".

I'm totally, 100% with Morch on this one. Religion is for losers.
See my post on the previous page (2) for my opinion on your post above. Your quote above is exactly the sort of rationale I refered to in my previous post. You are naive if you think religion is a 'refuge for the weak minded'. To insinuate this is to insinuate every aspect of modern society is a refuge for the weak minded.
 

sibanac

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Ballard said:
Religon may aid in the subjugation of many non-western people but likewise western society is happy in the suburban stupor with media being beamed into their homes 24/7.
Go spend a month or 2in the Bible belt,
You'll soon see that religion is used for the subjugation of people in the west aswell, only diffrence is in the west the preachers are telling the people what to do/think using the media
 

Anastasia

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Ballard said:
See my post on the previous page (2) for my opinion on your post above. Your quote above is exactly the sort of rationale I refered to in my previous post. You are naive if you think religion is a 'refuge for the weak minded'. To insinuate this is to insinuate every aspect of modern society is a refuge for the weak minded.
OK - not all religious people are weak minded - certainly religious leaders are anything but. They also tend not to exhibit many of the virtues of their chosen doctrine. I still think that people who are easily influenced and open to suggestion (a definition of a weak mind imo) are more likely to follow a religion than more independent people. Clearly a generalisation though, so don't take any of this as a personal attack.
 

Ballard

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sibanac said:
Go spend a month or 2in the Bible belt,
You'll soon see that religion is used for the subjugation of people in the west aswell, only diffrence is in the west the preachers are telling the people what to do/think using the media
I certainly did not infer anything different. And yes I have been to the 'bible belt'. Intolerance in the bible belt is not sourced from religion not matter what you may think. The very basis of human society is a hierachial categorisation.
Father, Mother , Workplace Boss , TV and religion they are all influencing your judgement. Dont get all high and mighty because one of the many 'liberals' has given you their ironicaly generic gospel that is repeated like a mantra 'religion stops people from thinking..' by all these psuedo intellectuals who think they have a unique perspective on how the world works.
 

Anastasia

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Ballard said:
I certainly did not infer anything different. And yes I have been to the 'bible belt'. Intolerance in the bible belt is not sourced from religion not matter what you may think. The very basis of human society is a hierachial categorisation.
Father, Mother , Workplace Boss , TV and religion they are all influencing your judgement. Dont get all high and mighty because one of the many 'liberals' has given you their ironicaly generic gospel that is repeated like a mantra 'religion stops people from thinking..' by all these psuedo intellectuals who think they have a unique perspective on how the world works.
I think you owned yourself here. This is the most pseudo intellectual post yet.
 

Ballard

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Anastasia said:
OK - not all religious people are weak minded - certainly religious leaders are anything but. They also tend not to exhibit many of the virtues of their chosen doctrine. I still think that people who are easily influenced and open to suggestion (a definition of a weak mind imo) are more likely to follow a religion than more independent people. Clearly a generalisation though, so don't take any of this as a personal attack.
I wouldnt agree with you there. Is that group of mall kids all decked out in 'gap' clothing easily influenced? Are those wannabe Football players easily influenced? Are those ten kids at your school who all dress in black and listen to death metal easily influenced? Anything repeated enough times starts to sound remarkably like dogma.
I am not a religous person myself but I have seen religious people who will sacrifice time and effort to work for charities and who dont care about whether the have the latest clothes or the biggest TV, Whether their DVD is multi zone or their PC is 3Ghz..
People are doing all these things because they like them, the familiarity and categorisation gives them comfort... When was the last time you met a religious person? Can you even tell a religious person from someone else without them telling you? Most religious people do not just blindly follow religious doctrine. Most of them havent ever read the whole bible (koran etc..)

I think perhaps we are gonna have to agree to disagree about this one. At least it was a spirited discussion.
 

Ballard

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Anastasia said:
I think you owned yourself here. This is the most pseudo intellectual post yet.
Except I never purported to be an 'intellectual' or have this wonderful mind free of influences like you seem to suggest that you have. So no I wouldnt say that. I am posting as much about myself as anyone else.
 

sibanac

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Ballard said:
I certainly did not infer anything different. And yes I have been to the 'bible belt'. Intolerance in the bible belt is not sourced from religion not matter what you may think. The very basis of human society is a hierachial categorisation.
Father, Mother , Workplace Boss , TV and religion they are all influencing your judgement. Dont get all high and mighty because one of the many 'liberals' has given you their ironicaly generic gospel that is repeated like a mantra 'religion stops people from thinking..' by all these psuedo intellectuals who think they have a unique perspective on how the world works.
Your post mentioned 'non-western' specificly, I just wanted to point out that its not only non-western ppl.

Religion might not generaly stop people from thinking, but its is/has been used to prevent people from thinking.
I've heard people say "cause the bible says so" as an explanation a fair few times while i was there (mostly georgia)
 

Ballard

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sibanac said:
Your post mentioned 'non-western' specificly, I just wanted to point out that its not only non-western ppl.

Religion might not generaly stop people from thinking, but its is/has been used to prevent people from thinking.
I've heard people say "cause the bible says so" as an explanation a fair few times while i was there (mostly georgia)

hehe not much work is getting done at work today..

I agree 100% with you on this as i did your previous post. Perhaps my reply was misworded such that the majority of it was aimed at you because it wasnt meant to be. Did you like georgia? Funny place but beautiful countryside.

Because they can identify what is telling them how to act does that mean they have less of a free mind?
 

sibanac

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Ballard said:
hehe not much work is getting done at work today..

I agree 100% with you on this as i did your previous post. Perhaps my reply was misworded such that the majority of it was aimed at you because it wasnt meant to be. Did you like georgia? Funny place but beautiful countryside.

Because they can identify what is telling them how to act does that mean they have less of a free mind?
Yeah had some good fun there, Alabama was sacry tbh, Louisiana (read mostly New Orleans) was way cool

not because they can identify, but because they seem to accept only one source without question (atleast that how it seemed to me)
 

Ballard

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Aye I think this is the crux of the argument. They only have limited influences into their life. This does not mean they are weak minded or gullible. I mean if I grew up and all I heard was the ranting of death metal bands I would be a screwed up kid. Being open to suggestion should never be seen as weak willed Cos we are all open to suggestion at some level. If you werent you wouldnt be able to learn.
 

Binky the Bomb

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Ormorof said:
actually its something to do with honour, going to heaven an 40 virgins or something :eek6:
Add some beer and that would be a cracking weekend for me. Something tells me that those guys, once there through, are now in hell with 40 women giving them ear-ache for the rest of eternity. Not the smartest decision they could have made methinks.
 

Job

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99% of people(who get religous) adopt the religion of their parents.

Of course in the west it's probably 99% of people reject the religion of their parents or any religion.

You can believe in a supreme being, feel free it won't make any difference, he won't hear your prayers, he won't be there when you die, he won't save your Granny from cancer, he will only exist in your head.

Remember death isn't bad, you've allready been dead for eternity, and you will remain dead for eternity after you stop working.
It doesn't hurt, it isn't boring, you don't get lonely or hungry, all of those emotions are simple mechanisms to ensure your body stays alive long enough to reproduce until wear and tear and disease shuts you down.

Let it go religous people, let it go.
 

Morchaoron

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Morchaoron said:
funniest thing is that most of these 'terrorists' arent even iraqis...
speaking of it (yes i quote myself), whats even funnier is that in total these 'foreign terrorists' killed more civilians then soldiers with their 'attacks'...
like when they fired a missile which killed 22 iraqi civilians at a market...
 

Hawkwind

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Zede said:
this "war" is all about oil, power, money and control - shit the west was doing this shit 700 years ago during the crusades - and its still happening. and we call ourselves civilised ?
Thought the second crusade was in 11 or 12th century. A lot jews actually fought along side the Muslims, ironic.
 

Zede

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"Religion is the opium of the masses"

Karl Marx
 

Ballard

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Zede said:
"Religion is the opium of the masses"

Karl Marx
That quote is often used completely out of context by people for their own purposes. Im not saying this is the case here because you havent said what you think this means. As a side note opium has never been a great evil... A lot of modern pain relief and drugs are based on opiate extract or opium.


From the rest of the text you can actually see that religion is not controlling man but man controls himself.

The foundation of irreligious criticism is this: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is indeed man's self-consciousness and self-awareness so long as he has not found himself or has already lost himself again. But, man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man -- state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, it enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
 

Bubble

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Talking about Religion always leads to Arguments ^^ its a taboo subject in the armed forces.

Its sad really if you think about iraq-

Saddam controlled his people by using fear and death(you kill one of my men, i'll kill your village,mass graves etc..).
If the US lead forces uses the same tactics they would straight away be compaired to Hitler style Dictator etc, the UN and the rest of the world would interveen. A situation that will just get worse(if the US pull out, the place will go into a Civil war and be ruled by someone like Saddam in the end, if they stay, more and more will Die)

No win :(
 

Binky the Bomb

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The main error with religons is that the final analysis of your deeds happens when your dead. You'll only find out when you snuff it if you did good or bad, and that is where religon fails us drastically. We only got the word of the top men that what your doing is in accordance with your faith. "Men" not the god of your faith I must stress.

And as we know, just because you have power, doesn't mean everything you do is for the best. Men are arrogant, greedy, manipulative and liars, so were realy not getting anything good from them.

Ill start beleiving in Catholocism again when god shows up and stops spoiling the congregation and starts throwning divine wrath about like he used too. Because if he's not showing an interest, why the fuck should we?

Besides, I got better things to do on Sunday mornings, like sleep in my nice warm bed.

Anyway, back on topic. Iraq has declared a state of emergency eh. Guess the last 12 months of bombs and military action must have tipped them off. Can't put anything past them.
 

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