IRAQ vs USA/UK

[xane]

If the American revenge is racist, what the hell was bin Laden doing then ?

Al-Qaeda's motive is to "kill Americans" and nothing else, they settle for nothing less than the complete destruction of the American way of life, culture, politics, religion, everything, the Palestinian cause is an excuse, it's the same infidel hating doctrine that Iran had in the 1980's, and boils down to a fine example of modern genocide, you are putting people in fear of their very existance soley due to the fact they were born on the wrong bit of land somewhere, people who have big guns and nukes, smart move eh ?

The fact that the Arab world was reluctant to abhor this strategy finally put the nail in for them, America never had many friends in the ME to start with so why should it give a shit now, when they've effectively endorsed an open season on Americans ?

I'm by no means a fan of America, but genocidal attitude is way beyond what I consider critical of their actions. I'd shudder with the thought of even the harshish critic of the US to consider the outright elimination of every single one of them.

The combined weight of the Arab world will never, can never, defeat America, at best they represent a tiny proportion of the Islamic world, most other muslims have far greater respect for Americans (usually financially motivated) and a hatred for the Arab domination of their religion, so support is hardly going to be forthcoming.

After this war is over, the Arab nations will have to think long and hard, do they really want to support a genocidal war with the US ? Who do you think would really win if the Americans adopted the same attitude towards Arabic Islam, do you honestly think the Russians or Chinese, or any other nuclear power, or even other non-Arab Islamic nations such as Iran and Indonesia, would actually support Arabic Islam, consider how radical Arab-inspired factions have baited and confronted them also ?

People say America is losing world support, well, so have the Arabs, unless they can stand up and say things have gone to far, America may well start something nasty, and the rest of the world will actually stand back and watch.

 

[Gef]

Originally posted by xane
If the American revenge is racist, what the hell was bin Laden doing then ?

The thing is Bin Laden would openly admit it ..

 

[Munkey-]

I'm actually goning to say:

"The combined weight of the Arab world will never, can never, defeat America, at best they represent a tiny proportion of the Islamic world, most other muslims have far greater respect for Americans (usually financially motivated) and a hatred for the Arab domination of their religion, so support is hardly going to be forthcoming."

To the arab people in my school and see what they say.

On another note, violent protests down on the Corniche tonight! I saw riot squads with shotguns down there earlier and there seem to be more ambulances than normal racing past my compound. Friends were gonna join in the protest but when they realised it wasnt government organised they, wisely in my opinion, decided not to go.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by Gef
The thing is Bin Laden would openly admit it ..

Oh, sorry, thats okay then

 

[stu]

Originally posted by Embattle
Who exactly did you have in mind to remove him?

Exactly. And if having the military capability to remove a government you don't agree with is the requirement for doing so, then qed you support a dictatorial "rule by force" - the very opposite of the supposed democratic liberation of Iraq.

 

[Embattle]

Democracy by Gun/Bomb...love it

 

[stu]

Originally posted by xane
If the American revenge is racist, what the hell was bin Laden doing then ?

Al-Qaeda's motive is to "kill Americans"... etc

Slight flaw with your argument. Al Qaeda isn't a recognised army. Bin Laden is not a head of state. The whole point of terrorists is that they don't represent a country. There are certain obligations of legitimate governments that terrorists bypass. That's what separates terrorism from the "liberation" of a country.

You're mixing up fundamentalism, Islam, and the Arab world, and using them interchangably. Bin Laden is a fundamentalist. His views and actions are no more representative of Islam than the IRAs are of Christianity. Arabs in the Middle East have a perfectly legitimate reason to hate the United States - and if you think that Palestine is just an "excuse" for them, you should probably take a closer look at the history of the region. Yes, it's an excuse for Bin Laden et al, but like I said he's a terrorist, and a fundamentalist - he does not represent the Middle East. He was expelled from Saudi in the first place, and Afghanistan is 1) not an Arab country and 2) was also ruled by fundamentalists.

I fail to see how Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, etc have "endorsed" any genocidal act against the United States, do you have any evidence of that? The animosity for those countries comes directly from the US's limitless support of Israel. The irony of the situation of course being that Israel is the worst violator of UN Security Council resolutions, and that the United States frequently vetoes resolutions calling for an end to illegal activities on the part of Israel (settlement building in the West Bank, the use of torture to interrogate suspects, etc). The recent total abandonment of the "roadmap to peace" is just another example of this. If the United States actually took the Middle Eastern peace process seriously they'd find they had a lot more friends in the region.

 

[Ash!]

Originally posted by xane
Who do you think would really win if the Americans adopted the same attitude towards Arabic Islam, do you honestly think the Russians or Chinese, or any other nuclear power, or even other non-Arab Islamic nations such as Iran and Indonesia, would actually support Arabic Islam, consider how radical Arab-inspired factions have baited and confronted them also ?

XANE

Nobody wins in war. Regardless of the motive, intent or the outcome

Originally posted by xane
People say America is losing world support, well, so have the Arabs, unless they can stand up and say things have gone to far, America may well start something nasty, and the rest of the world will actually stand back and watch

Agreed the Arab world does have to stand up for itself and start taking responsibilities for its own future. Its no good everyone running round the streets with Guns and Rockets if the Children have no food or Medicine.

Its all well and good saying that America and/or the west is the great Satan and Muslim kids on the streets of Britain saying this is a war against Isalm. I would quite like to know who the western demonisers were supporting whilst the UN were stopping thousands upon thousands of muslims being Massacred in the former Yugoslavia.

That said America must stand up and take responsibilites for their own actions. Why are no Shi'ah(sp?) Muslims welcoming them on the streets of Umm Qasr. The reason being is that America shit on them in the last gulf war i.e. they lied/decieved them in the last Gulf war. Giving the impression to be their saviour from Saddam and then dumping them and letting the Baath party carry out Executions on them. America and Britain for that matter wouldnt do itself any harm to say that whilst Iraq is in breach of UN Resolutions so is Israel regarding their weapons of Mass destruction.

On the west bank this month 11 Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli policy. What did they do to deserve it ????????? Just because of the religion they were I suppose. Is their any condemnation from Bush or Blair on this ? Of course the answer is no. Look at it through the eyes of the Palestinians. A tank comes down the street and Kills your 4 your old son from an enemy that is being sponsored by America. Is it any wonder why the Arab world has a bitter taste for America ? As I have no great affinity with America or the Middle east but something has to be done to understand why their is so much bitter hate in the world

 

[Munkey-]

Thats right, everyone in the arab nations runs around naked with ak-47's and has no food or medicine. Even though they are some of the richest nations in the world.

Your argument has no real solid basis and you are merley jumping upon the Palestinian band wagon in order to gain support for your anti-american views.

Stu managed to construct a much better argument and rationally explains it.

 

[Embattle]

I tend to think of them as not being the richest nations in the world but more of a case of certain people/families being the richest in the world

 

[Munkey-]

and I tend to view what the USA are doing as an armed bank robbery on a weekend and the cops are on strike.

 

[stu]

Originally posted by Embattle
I tend to think of them as not being the richest nations in the world but more of a case of certain people/families being the richest in the world

If you removed the financial elite from any country, the remainder isn't particularly affluent. The effect is more pronounced in Middle Eastern countries, but that's largely because of the way that society has developed with a familial/tribal geographical influence. My maternal grandparent family, for instance, essentially 'owns' a medium-sized and fairly affluent town in Lebanon. However when you say 'family' in this context it's not the Western interpretation of immediate relations - it's hundreds, in some cases thousands, of family members. The family stays together throughout generations, and there is a very strong sense of belonging and contribution. Many cultures evolved this way (eg native americans) - the reason we didn't in the Western world is largely because we had less land mass, and more established travel methods. So when a Middle Eastern "family" is rich, it's often representative of an entire community.

 

[Embattle]

I'm more referring to the families such as the Saudi Royal Family.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by stu
You're mixing up fundamentalism, Islam, and the Arab world, and using them interchangably. Bin Laden is a fundamentalist. His views and actions are no more representative of Islam than the IRAs are of Christianity. Arabs in the Middle East have a perfectly legitimate reason to hate the United States - and if you think that Palestine is just an "excuse" for them, you should probably take a closer look at the history of the region. Yes, it's an excuse for Bin Laden et al, but like I said he's a terrorist, and a fundamentalist - he does not represent the Middle East. He was expelled from Saudi in the first place, and Afghanistan is 1) not an Arab country and 2) was also ruled by fundamentalists.

Bin Laden _does_ have a lot of sympathy within _Arab_ Islam, the fact that he opposes another oppressive regime in Saudi gives him even more credibility. Arab governments might denounce him, but his views still hold weight because they are based on long-held nationalistic beliefs that gave birth to the modern Arab movements.

That the Arab nations have failed to soundly renounce his genocidal views is an atrocity in itself. What would any western country do if it had a sizeable population supporting the genocidal elimination of any ethnic group, would it ignore it, having experienced the ugly spectre of genocide first hand, do you think the western nations would let it happen again ?

Bin Laden, and Arab Islam, has no real support from other Islamic countries, as they too have been victims of fundementalist policies, so attempts are made to expand the Arabic Islamic view into a general Islamic view encompassing every one of the billion plus muslims on the planet - guess what - it ain't gonna happen.

Arab Islamic views do not represent global Islamic views, any more than, as you say, the IRA and Christianity.

Afghanistan was a prime example of extremist Arabic Islam whipping up hatred, the traditional Islam of Afghanistan is not like that at all.

 

[TedTheDog]

Islamic Reform In Arabia offers a different slant on some of these issues if you're interested.

 

[Tom]

I find it amazing that so many people still link the current state of affairs in the ME to religion, particularly as not many people in the West give a shit about religion.

In my mind, Bin Laden is basically a nutter. Anybody who expresses satisfaction in the deaths of thousands of civilians, who openly encourages terrorism, doesn't deserve to live. Drawing parallels with US foreign policy, which some say causes even more deaths, is futile at best.

Israel might get some serious stick for ignoring UN resolutions, but you should all bear in mind that it was the Arab countries around Israel that 'started it'.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian Arab nation . . . Palestine is a name the Romans gave to Eretz Yisrael with the express purpose of infuriating the Jews . . . . Why should we use the spiteful name meant to humiliate us? "The British chose to call the land they mandated Palestine, and the Arabs picked it up as their nation's supposed ancient name, though they couldn't even pronounce it correctly and turned it into Falastin a fictional entity."
-- Golda Meir quoted by Sarah Honig,
Jerusalem Post, 25 November 1995

Palestine has never existed . . . as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians.

Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today . . . No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.
-- from "Myths of the Middle East", Joseph Farah,
Arab-American editor and journalist,
WorldNetDaily.Com, 11 October 2000

From the end of the Jewish state in antiquity to the beginning of British rule, the area now designated by the name Palestine was not a country and had no frontiers, only administrative boundaries..
-- Professor Bernard Lewis,
Commentary Magazine, January 1975

quotes taken from here

 

[maxi--]

Originally posted by TedTheDog
Islamic Reform In Arabia offers a different slant on some of these issues if you're interested.

Originally posted by Tom[SHOTTEH]
I find it amazing that so many people still link the current state of affairs in the ME to religion, particularly as not many people in the West give a shit about religion.

In my mind, Bin Laden is basically a nutter. Anybody who expresses satisfaction in the deaths of thousands of civilians, who openly encourages terrorism, doesn't deserve to live. Drawing parallels with US foreign policy, which some say causes even more deaths, is futile at best.

Israel might get some serious stick for ignoring UN resolutions, but you should all bear in mind that it was the Arab countries around Israel that 'started it'.



quotes taken from here

read: MIRA’s Response to “What we’re Fighting For”

 

[Daffeh]

Originally posted by Tom[SHOTTEH]
I find it amazing that so many people still link the current state of affairs in the ME to religion, particularly as not many people in the West give a shit about religion.

its everything to do with religion....99% of the worlds problems are due to religion

the Muslims think the 'infidels' (US/UK) are trying to kill them, so they praise Allah by killing people (us)

 

[nath]

Originally posted by Daffeh
its everything to do with religion....99% of the worlds problems are due to religion

the Muslims think the 'infidels' (US/UK) are trying to kill them, so they praise Allah by killing people (us)

Let me just be the first to say.. errrrrrr.

 

[Daffeh]

so u think these are rational people?


i sure as hell dont

 

[nath]

Sweet jesus :/

 

[Daffeh]

oh sorry, we're not in your perfect world are we Nath

the main opposition in the Arab nations are due to their religious beliefs

 

[Nos-]

Daffeh,

SHUT THE FUCK UP????

 

[Embattle]

Originally posted by nath
Sweet jesus :/

Wow you get to suck jesus off

 

[nath]

He taste so gud :|

 

[Daffeh]

right, so obviously religion has nothing to do with this at all

 

[nath]

Tbh, I'm not gunna begin to try and explain this to you Daffeh. You're far beyond that, and even if someone did you'd cling to your propaganda fueled belief system anyway.


p.s. By all means take this as meaning I can't prove you wrong, hence you're right. I know you will anyway.

 

[Daffeh]

and of course you're 100% free of propaganda arent u

 

[doh_boy]

Originally posted by Daffeh
oh sorry, we're not in your perfect world are we Nath

the main opposition in the Arab nations are due to their religious beliefs

IMHO the main opposition is the palpable unease (and the apparent unwillingness) of the west to live peacefully and respectfully with a 'more stringent' islamic regime. Add this to the fact that the last two 'wars' fought by the western countries have been against islamic regimes, the us' unwavering support(and the un's lack of action against their transgressions) of israel and , taking the meaning of infidel, the apparent lack of religious direction of most western countries(not saying this is true).

Its not a 'you're not muslim so I'll hate you' situation.

Also before people start, I was against starting the war but now we've started we have to 'do it properly'. When I hear from the americans that they may not invade bagdad(after sprinting there leaving the dirty work to the british) but leave it the iraqis I worry. Letting the iraqis die (well its their country so they should die for it) would not be a popular move.

 

[nath]

Originally posted by doh_boy
(well its their country so they should die for it)

No no no, you can't have it both ways. Either start a war and go the whole way, or leave it be and let the iraqis start an uprising themselves.

You can't just start a war that shitloads of iraqi's didn't want, and expect them to die in it because it's their country.