Iranians in Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!!!!

[Lamp]

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israeli killed in suicide bombing

 

[old.Tohtori]

Saddam or whatever on Leonidas' face.

DO IT.

What do i look like, some sort of bombardment ta...i mean...red cross? What's in it for me?

 

[old.Tohtori]

As requested by Sharma, you owe me now *grin*

 

[tierk]

........Look on a bigger scale, what has Israel done to provoke it's neighbours like: Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, countries who have the resources to develop the means to build a nuclear weaponry.

hahahahahah typical fucking typical!!! What have we done indeed!!!! How about illegal invasions of neighbours, constant over flying other countries airspaces. Bombing targets all there neighbours countries illegally. Extra judical killings of Palestinians. Illegal settlements. Illegal road blocks. Collective punishment. Human shields. Total disregard for civilians when carrying out extar judiacial killings. Using military weapons on civilian targets.

Oh and lamp you point out one jew killed but i cba to show how many Palestinians have been killed just in the last month by the ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES. Rest assured that like all things made in Israel its heavy handed and OTT.

 

[Hawkwind]

You seem to have the same mentality as many others, that if one "ahlamalaaaa!" country got a nuke, they'd just jump ad press the launch button.

Which probably isn't any closer then the UK or France nuking the US.

Now if some radicalists got nukes, then you'd have a problem.

Personally think your being unfair, the comment made was regarding Iran's constant spewing hatred towards the west and Israel. The whole reason people are concerened about Iran and its nuclear aspirations is because of the statement its leaders make. Statements like 'Israel should be wiped of the face of the planet', death to all jews painted on the side of rockets during televised marches etc.

If Amadinejihad would act like a statesmen and calm down some of the hatred he spews maybe people would be less concerened.

As for the rockets, instead of satelites maybe they should fire a few of the radical Mullahs up there.

 

[Hawkwind]

hahahahahah typical fucking typical!!! What have we done indeed!!!! How about illegal invasions of neighbours, constant over flying other countries airspaces. Bombing targets all there neighbours countries illegally. Extra judical killings of Palestinians. Illegal settlements. Illegal road blocks. Collective punishment. Human shields. Total disregard for civilians when carrying out extar judiacial killings. Using military weapons on civilian targets.

Oh and lamp you point out one jew killed but i cba to show how many Palestinians have been killed just in the last month by the ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES. Rest assured that like all things made in Israel its heavy handed and OTT.

Funny how any news story in this region breaks down to the Israel / Palestian situation. Neither side have been angels. From state sponsered terrorism of Israel to the Palestinian Hamas/Fatah terrorist bombing campaigns.

I still find it odd that two religions with such close idiology manage such hatred of each other.

 

[soze]

I They could do plenty, Israel wouldn't last 5 years without US money
But America has shown us time and time again that they don't really give a fuck what a government gets up to provided they play ball on the "important issues", i.e. those issues that directly impact their own interests.
They were quite happy to turn a blind eye, and even lend a hand through the "school of the americas" in central/south america in the 80's and help out our friends in saudi or good old Islam Karimov these days.

Thats why i said even if they wanted too And look at the shit the yanks got for going after Iran if they went after a countery who have not pledged not to build nukes they would get even more of a slagging off. But you are right America do not want to do anything.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Personally think your being unfair, the comment made was regarding Iran's constant spewing hatred towards the west and Israel.

Aye, as said, Platins answer was fair enough. Didn't say "i was being unfair", because i took the comment as it very much looked like. Misunderstandings are corrected and people move on, even on internetz. No harm i say.

About "jews" being a problem, well, there's been a few israel things here, but didn't mean those. I meant more in the same way, as christians and the crusades etc.

I have to contact a relative of mine, who actually has made some studies into this, os it takes a while. But if you peek at history, like with all nations, noone is "good" and everyone is "bad", in one way or more.

Mostly my comment was towards the fact that I personally just dislike, slightly, the fact that jews and israel SEEM to have this bubble against accusations.

See how problematic it's for me to even post something tha might possibly say that jews/israeli people have done wrong? That's the whole point i dislike.

 

[aika]

grats on being 50 years late.

 

[Hawkwind]

See how problematic it's for me to even post something tha might possibly say that jews/israeli people have done wrong? That's the whole point i dislike.

Granted, it is an issue that no one seems to be able to argue a case against Isreal without being labelled anti semitic. It's like you make any comment, regardless of how rational is seems, and suddenly your attacked like you were personally involved in the Nazi attrocities of WWII. They have lived along time with this 'can't touch us' attitude and about time they stopped playing that card.

For a people who had such attrocities against them you would think they would be the champions of peace, with cries of never again. Unfortunately survival seems to have taken them another route. It's a cruel world we live in.

Like someone once said, "Fighting for peace, is like fucking for virginity!"

 

[Chronictank]

Invading the west bank?


Look on a bigger scale, what has Israel done to provoke it's neighbours like: Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, countries who have the resources to develop the means to build a nuclear weaponry.

maybe Iran should just nuke Israel off the planet 'as a defensive manouver against terrorists'

What a retarded argument

Two countries both run by fanatics, both actively aggresive (ironically Iran to a lesser extent), both harbouring terrorism (one state sponsored, one underground)
i fail to see what the difference is between Israel owning nukes and Iran is, as they are as bad as each other

One just happens to be sponsored by a super power

And before the bs starts, i have nothing against Israelis, hell i went out with one for a while. But as a country it is nothing but a bad joke

 

[Dukat]

All of this over a news report about satellites?

Most of what has been said in here is old ground that seems to get repeated in every thread that goes within 50 miles of the whole "middle east thing".

I agree mostly with Hawkwind I think. Isreal seems to be playing a rather strange game, with America being rather hypocritical with the foreign policy we get to hear about.

I hope Iran shows that it can be a responsible world power by having a nuclear deterrant without using it. Hell, it might even help stability in the region, given the way things are going.

I think that GWB has inflamed the situation, which the media havent helped, by stating a while back that a nuclear strike on Iran cant be ruled out. Iran seems to enjoy courting ruin - whether by accident or on purpose - by antagonising the US, the US in turn acts like a spoilt child with a hand grenade.

I find it frustrating that Isreal enjoys such impunity for its arrogant actions, while at the same time I find the way the palestinians act to be making things just as bad. Both sides act like they're playing a game, while the rest of the region seems to be waiting for an excuse to jump in.

I worry about what will happen in the near-future, I believe the most probable outcome will be that the current situation stays more or less as it is, whether better or worse for short periods of time, I think the idea that something will trigger a shitstorm on a scale not yet seen is possible, but hopefully not all that likely with all involved parties knowing that it would probably lead to the annihilation(whether physically or politically) of the middle east as it stands currently.

Isreal-Iran will probably be the deciding factor though I think.

 

[Chronictank]

the US in turn acts like a spoilt child with a hand grenade.

quote of the week lol

 

[soze]

This is getting funny people say America should stop acting like world police and stop bullying Iran who signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty which gives america some power to act, yet the same people want America to crush Israel for doing the same. Makes your minds up are America World police and do that have impunity to attack Israel, Iran and anyone else for this or should America stop trying to get involved?

 

[Dukat]

Makes your minds up are America World police and do that have impunity to attack Israel, Iran and anyone else for this or should America stop trying to get involved?

Neither, in my opinion.

America, (as well as any other country in the NPT for that matter) have the right to lobby against Iran for its breaches of the NPT. Iran does have the right to develop nuclear technology for peaceful use though.

I dont know what the consequences are for breaking the NPT, I guess that is the root of the issue.

 

[Chronictank]

yet the same people want America to crush Israel for doing the same. Makes your minds up are America World police and do that have impunity to attack Israel?

Dont know where you derived that from,

should America stop trying to get involved?

Yes! they cant manage their own internal affairs, their economy is heading for recession what makes you think they will do any better in someone elses country

 

[tierk]

All of this over a news report about satellites?................

I did ask for people to leave their flame throwers at home but......

 

[Platin]

hahahahahah typical fucking typical!!! What have we done indeed!!!! How about illegal invasions of neighbours, constant over flying other countries airspaces. Bombing targets all there neighbours countries illegally. Extra judical killings of Palestinians. Illegal settlements. Illegal road blocks. Collective punishment. Human shields. Total disregard for civilians when carrying out extar judiacial killings. Using military weapons on civilian targets.

Where do I start...

"How about illegal invasions of neighbours, constant over flying other countries airspaces."

It's not like they're taking "joyrides", but 10 out of 10 cases are in response to actions conducted by terrorist-organizations (state sponsored terrorists).

"Bombing targets all there neighbours countries illegally"

"Extra judical killings of Palestinians"

It's not illegal to defend your own country from agression. Israel considers itself to be in a constant state of war against terrorist-organizations, so when they are hiding in Gaza, what are they suposed to do, ask them nicely to come inside Israel territory and THEN do something?

"Illegal road blocks."

Says who? Who says it is illegal to have a road block within your own borders or when you're in a state of war?

"Collective punishment."

Says you.

"Total disregard for civilians when carrying out extar judiacial killings. Using military weapons on civilian targets. "

Because terrorists or rather part of the palestinian state (Hamas) use civilians as human shields and cover, that makes it a hostile act by a state against another. They have EVERY right to respond to that agression.


Considering the history of Israel and past arab agressions, can anyone blame them for not trusting or believing in their neighbours. For example: the second intifada that has victimized the palestinians in western media. It started as a result of edit:Sharon visiting the templemountain. Arabs considered this as a good reason to start fighting again. But did anyone mention that Yassir Arafat APPROVED his visit to the templemountain? No, they didn't. Then we have the war of independance, Octoberwar, the Six day war. Since day one they have been attacked by arab states and organizations, so what it comes down to is: do they have the right to defend themselves, or rather do they have the right to exist?

 

[tierk]

.............America, (as well as any other country in the NPT for that matter) have the right to lobby against Iran for its breaches of the NPT. Iran does have the right to develop nuclear technology for peaceful use though.............

You see this is the problem, Iran is not in breach of the NPT and has not been now since 2003. The reason for its illegal behavoiur in the past was as a direct result of the actions of western countries that refused to sell nuclear technology in the 80's when Iran was seeking it.

This led them to taking matters into the black market and getting hooked up with all kinds of shadying dealings to try and get what they wanted /needed.

As to your question about the penalties for breaking the terms of the NPT i, like you dont know the full details of it but i would imagine that it would involve some sort of UN led action - sanctions and such. However, what i would say is that Iran, just like any other country, is entitled to rip up any treaty they see fit to just as the USA did with the Kyoto Treaty or the North Koreans did with the NPT.

 

[Platin]

maybe Iran should just nuke Israel off the planet 'as a defensive manouver against terrorists'

What a retarded argument

(yibberish...)

I'm sorry, but where did I say that. I will simplify and explain to you: Saudi Arabia would not consider getting nuclear weapons just because Israel has it, but if Iran AND Israel has them, what the fuck do you think will happen. Think please! Now, we have three nuclear-powers within a relatively small geographical area, that have almost non-existing relations. To me it makes the India-Pakistan situation look like paradise. On top of that we have Syria who most likely will get it once Iran has it. It's not only stupid, it's crazy.

 

[Chronictank]

I'm sorry, but where did I say that. I will simplify and explain to you: Saudi Arabia would not consider getting nuclear weapons just because Israel has it, but if Iran AND Israel has them, what the fuck do you think will happen. Think please! Now, we have three nuclear-powers within a relatively small geographical area, that have almost non-existing relations. To me it makes the India-Pakistan situation look like paradise. On top of that we have Syria who most likely will get it once Iran has it. It's not only stupid, it's crazy.

Firstly that is exactly what you said, they did all their military action into palestine under defencive pretense, if Iran regarded Israel as a threat under your rationale a pre-emptive attack is exactly what you are justifying

You're telling me to think when the reality is that Israel is bullying the region with American backing, maybe a heavy weight in the region is exactly what the region needs. Israel would not be so liberal in their military action if there was someone who would have the power to do something about it, that is a fact
The way it is currently is not working, and both sides are making things worse (palestine and israel). Maybe this is just what the region needs because the way it is going now sure as hell isnt working and a bit of balance may do a world of good

The inda pakistan situation was nothing more than that of the cold war, a show os strength that was blown out of proportion by the media

Were not talking about terrorists who blow up civilians, they are the scum of the earth in my eyes. We are talking about elected governments who Israel & America doesn't like so decide to try push around

 

[Dukat]

You see this is the problem, Iran is not in breach of the NPT and has not been now since 2003. The reason for its illegal behavoiur in the past was as a direct result of the actions of western countries that refused to sell nuclear technology in the 80's when Iran was seeking it.

This led them to taking matters into the black market and getting hooked up with all kinds of shadying dealings to try and get what they wanted /needed.

As to your question about the penalties for breaking the terms of the NPT i, like you dont know the full details of it but i would imagine that it would involve some sort of UN led action - sanctions and such. However, what i would say is that Iran, just like any other country, is entitled to rip up any treaty they see fit to just as the USA did with the Kyoto Treaty or the North Koreans did with the NPT.

This may well be true about thier not being in breach for a while, I only knew that there had been breaches in the last 10 years, wasnt really sure about the specific dates.

You're right about ripping up the treaty, they dont need to sign up to it, Isreal havent, and the fact that they are trying to make it work is the main reason I think that Iran becoming a nuclear power might actually help to stabilise the region, if they are responsible enough.

I just think it would be alot easier if there wasnt the odd skirmish with the west, like with the british sailors, the recent fiasco with the aborted/faked attack on the US ship. The US isnt exactly helping matters with its childish remarks and bullish statements though.

 

[Platin]

Firstly that is exactly what you said, they did all their military action into palestine under defencive pretense, if Iran regarded Israel as a threat under your rationale a pre-emptive attack is exactly what you are justifying

No I did not, you can quote me on where you interpreted that. Please do, I'm not justifying shit regarding pre-emptive strikes. I did however justify Israels past actions against terrorist groups and palestinian violence.

You're telling me to think when the reality is that Israel is bullying the region with American backing, maybe a heavy weight in the region is exactly what the region needs. Israel would not be so liberal in their military action if there was someone who would have the power to do something about it, that is a fact

Israel has been subjected to three wars, and thirty years of terrorist actions, it's self defense. Remember the last time Britain had to defend itself? It ended up in bombing a million, a couple of hundred of thousand after the war basically was over. Put it into perspective.

The way it is currently is not working, and both sides are making things worse (palestine and israel). Maybe this is just what the region needs because the way it is going now sure as hell isnt working and a bit of balance may do a world of good

That's brilliant, we all know how "well" the Cuba crisis ended. That will be the situation in the middle East every day, from the day Iran aquires the weapons til the day they loose them(one way or another).

You really have thought this through.

Actually it doesn't stop with Israel-Iran, you have Saudi-Arabia and Iraq too, Syria, Egypt. It won't be about picking sides if something goes down, it will be about picking up the pieces. Personally, I don't think Israel should have nuclear weapons, but they have, and it's impossible to do anything about it.

The inda pakistan situation was nothing more than that of the cold war, a show os strength that was blown out of proportion by the media

Were not talking about terrorists who blow up civilians, they are the scum of the earth in my eyes. We are talking about elected governments who Israel & America doesn't like so decide to try push around

I'm glad you have such expertise in the area.


Your reasons and arguements are nothing but infantile: "But he got an icecream, I want one too, booohooo".

 

[Chronictank]

No I did not, you can quote me on where you interpreted that. Please do, I'm not justifying shit regarding pre-emptive strikes. I did however justify Israels past actions against terrorist groups and palestinian violence.

Yes twist the words enough and it might actually sound like it is different
I can show you your justification in your own words

I did however justify Israels past actions against terrorist groups and palestinian violence.

Just because you word it differently doesnt make it any different, Israel should have worked with the palestinian authorities in the matter and/or got permission for the actions to take place. They didnt thus they are the agressors illegally enterings foreign soil to kill non-military combatents

Israel has been subjected to three wars, and thirty years of terrorist actions, it's self defense. Remember the last time Britain had to defend itself? It ended up in bombing a million, a couple of hundred of thousand after the war basically was over. Put it into perspective.

I could bring up a million situations for the other side, not only is it irrelevant to the current issue it is pointless.
You are seriously deluded if you think this was a one sided situation (if you dont then i dont see the relevance of the above quote)

That's brilliant, we all know how "well" the Cuba crisis ended. That will be the situation in the middle East every day, from the day Iran aquires the weapons til the day they loose them(one way or another).

You really have thought this through.

Actually it doesn't stop with Israel-Iran, you have Saudi-Arabia and Iraq too, Syria, Egypt. It won't be about picking sides if something goes down, it will be about picking up the pieces. Personally, I don't think Israel should have nuclear weapons, but they have, and it's impossible to do anything about it.

If that was going to happen it would have happened over Iraq, Afghanistan etc, etc etc...
but it hasn't.
Firstly Saudi-Arabia's aristrocracy has sided with the Americans and are known to have close contacts with them. How long that will last, who knows i guess until the oil runs dry. Americna Patrol operations in Iraq were run FROM saudi arabia (incidently which is why Bin Laden and his followers as deluded as they are say the Saudi powers that be are traitors).
They did nothing for Iraq, a member of the united arab league why would they get involved at all.

Likewise Egypt has no interest in the region until Iran sorts its act together, they publically stated this when 'the phonecall' became public. In addition Egypt has links with Israel, again they will lose regardless what side they choose.

The only volatile state in your argument is Syria, which in itself has little power to do anything without Iranian support.

I'm glad you have such expertise in the area.

Stop being a moron, if you want a civilised debate less of this. If you dont i cba with you
note: if this wasnt meant as a flame i apologise

Anyway im off, uni time

 

[Platin]

Yes twist the words enough and it might actually sound like it is different
I can show you your justification in your own words

Just because you word it differently doesnt make it any different, Israel should have worked with the palestinian authorities in the matter and/or got permission for the actions to take place. They didnt thus they are the agressors illegally enterings foreign soil to kill non-military combatents

Aaaah yes, they should "work" with palestinian authorities - smart! Why haven't someone thought of that before...Let's improve the Taiwan-China relations while we're at it.

I could bring up a million situations for the other side, not only is it irrelevant to the current issue it is pointless.
You are seriously deluded if you think this was a one sided situation (if you dont then i dont see the relevance of the above quote)

Of course you "could", but you didn't. Nor did I ever said it was a one sided situation, I explained how Israel considers it's own situation and views it. Because that is what actually matters from now on. To Clear out: I am not justifying a future "attack" on Iran (since you obviously have trouble reading).

If that was going to happen it would have happened over Iraq, Afghanistan etc, etc etc...
but it hasn't.
Firstly Saudi-Arabia's aristrocracy has sided with the Americans and are known to have close contacts with them. How long that will last, who knows i guess until the oil runs dry. Americna Patrol operations in Iraq were run FROM saudi arabia (incidently which is why Bin Laden and his followers as deluded as they are say the Saudi powers that be are traitors).
They did nothing for Iraq, a member of the united arab league why would they get involved at all.

Get involved? They are already involved. Who do you think are funding the sunni-groups in Iraq. The sunni-arabs in the Middle East are considering Irans(Shia) increasing power and influence as the biggest current threat. Same goes for Egypt.

And even if the tables were turned: let's say the Saudi Royal family would be overthrown and a unified Islamic world would stand against Israel, does that sound any better from a peaceful point of view(now think PLEASE).

Here is an interesting article on the subject:

PINR - Intelligence Brief: Tensions Increase Between Iran and Saudi Arabia

Likewise Egypt has no interest in the region until Iran sorts its act together, they publically stated this when 'the phonecall' became public. In addition Egypt has links with Israel, again they will lose regardless what side they choose.

Egypt doesn't have diplomatic relations with Iran, and they are one of the biggest sunni-actors

The only volatile state in your argument is Syria, which in itself has little power to do anything without Iranian support.

Read what I said.

Stop being a moron, if you want a civilised debate less of this. If you dont i cba with you
note: if this wasnt meant as a flame i apologise

Anyway im off, uni time

You're an idiot, you started getting personal and insulting me because you lack arguements.

Next you're probably going to "accuse" me of loving George Bush which I don't, nor do I support militairy action against Iran in any situation. I did not support the Iraq war. From start I've been trying to explain why Iran getting nuclear weapons is a bad bad thing, not because they are the "bad guys", but because it will start something.

 

[Dukat]

Next you're probably going to "accuse" me of loving George Bush

I heard it was the other way around Once you go plat you dont go back!!!

Happy days

Spoiler

 

[Azurus]

Until Israel accept the two state solution, as supported by pretty much EVERY country in the world except of course US and Israel there will still be problems in the area.

Noam Chomsky on Israel, Lebanon and Palestine

Platin i think you'll find this article interesting.

 

[soze]

Dont know where you derived that from,


Yes! they cant manage their own internal affairs, their economy is heading for recession what makes you think they will do any better in someone elses country

I was talking to the people saying things like America let Israel run around doing what they want if that was not you it was not aimed at you. And my point was they would not so i think people saying they should stop Israel are wrong.

 

[CorNokZ]

When I saw the title I was hoping for a Joor thread

 

[Raven]

where is Joor anyway? has he been silenced by the man?