Iran

[throdgrain]

Heres a jolly old BBC link showing the Iranain president now dismissing the holocaust as a myth.
What amazes me is that in this PC world (not the shop) that most people online have been brought up in ,they are appalled by racism of all kinds, except sometimes anti-semitism. Note for a start that guy on late BW, or was it early FH, (was his name cage?) and his anti-semitic posts. I know he eventually got banned, but it took ages. Would it have been the same if he had linked KKK pictures or similar? I doubt it
In online games I regularly see people with names like "kill Jews" , and who use the word Jew as an insult. Far, far more than the word "******" or similar.
Why is this? Do they think its ok? Or do they sympathise with the idiot in the link, the president of Iran?
Well. heres an opinion for you. Ive got nothing against Israel. And they are our nations friends. The Iranians et al, they are NOT our friends.

 

[ECA]

Whats wrong with iran? they dont follow the path of righteousness that is democracy? boofucking hoo, that makes us so superior, as to tell them what they can and cant do, because we like or dislike their religious beliefs? isnt that just a TAD hypocritical?

What about the fact we invaded them twice in the last century. installed a patsy dictator who brutalised and looted the country, maybe they wouldnt be so fucked up if it WASNT OUR FUCKING FAULT IN THE FIRST PLACE, and then have the temerity to set up a jewish state on their fucking doorstep not much later.

Yeah, they should FUCKING LOVE US AND USE OUR MODEL OF RUNNING A COUNTRY BECAUSE IT DID SO MUCH FOR THEM.

 

[Guest]

I dont agree one bit with what that Iranian guy said, as history has proved it DID happen, but you said they were (iran) our enemy, surely you are taking the same anti country/people stance as the iranian president (albeit far less blatantly) is.

History tells us that the west has constantly fucked the arab world over for their own gains and thats why countries like iran dont like the west, and the president possibly has an election (rigged or not) coming up.

Oh and didnt colin powell say that the iraquis had "lots of chemical weapons and missiles in trucks that could strike us in 20 minutes"( a blatant lie to justify war on iraq), that proved to be bullshit so i would think again about who you actually trust in this world, you may think you are not being watched or controlled by big brother but you probably are, he just speaks english and not arabic.

 

[throdgrain]

ok, some replies
1. They are enemy because they dont like us, not because we dont like them
2. The holocaust DID happen.
3. The land that is now Israel has been claimed by the Jews forever you could argue who was there first until you ran out of breath.
More replies please, preferably without imitation "shouting" in capital letters

 

[ECA]

Right, so they are the enemy, because they dont like us?

They are meant to like us, after two invasions and the installation of a patsy dictator who brutalised and looted the country, followed by the setting up of Isreal?

I mean what? they should love us for that?
Do you seriously believe that?

During the first world war, Britain and Russia fought over iran, and installed Reza Kahn as its leader, you can find more about his lovely reign on your own.

In 1941-46 we co-occupied it with the russians, and Kahns son took over, and was forced to introduce westernisation in the country, this lead to the religious backlash and revolution in 79.

We are directly responsible for the current state of Iran, its our fault.
And now because of our meddling they have a religious regime that intensely dislikes the western world, and they are now the enemy?

Seriously throd, get your head out of your arse ( and the trashy daily ragpapers ) and into a history book and you might see how we are largely responsible for the mess that is the middle east.

 

[throdgrain]

Thats irrelevant ECA. Seriously, if you want to use that word.
The history in regards to todays situation is irrelevant.
Iran are arming insurgents to shoot and blow up British soldiers , right now.
Iran has said that Israel should be "wiped off the planet".
Israel is our ally.
Iran is developing nuclear weapons.


We have nuclear weapons I hear you say, why shouldnt they?
I'll tell you why. Beacause they might blow us up with them, thats why.

 

[ECA]

So you poke a cat with a stick, electroshock it with a cattleprod, and then when you shoot it you get to say " BUT IT WANTED TO SCRATCH ME " like its some sort of valid excuse for your behaviour?

 

[throdgrain]

That doesnt make any sense Im afraid.

 

[Trem]

If the past is a reason to make excuses for countries then Germany hates us for winning the war, Japan hates us for blowing things up...etc.

Likewise the other way around, bringing up stuff from the past to justify countries like Iran wanting to explode us is not a valid reason imho.

We should plan to send people to Germany with bombs in their vests because they tried to invade us 60 years ago. We should plan to drop a bomb on Denmark because they DID invade us(or was it Norway).

Do you see my point?

 

[throdgrain]

Precisely Trem. Rambo 3 is most amusing , showing the all-american hero going to save the Afghans from the Russians.
20 years later the Yanks decide the Afghans are now our enemies (as indeed the Taliban are) and invade the country.
This is the point though, you cant look at what has happened, you have to look at what is happening now.

 

[Escape]

The USA and Israel may be best buddies, it doesn't excuse Israel's war on Palestine.

How many security forces in the world can shoot down children 'because they were throwing stones' and get away with it?

 

[Calaen]

THRODDY WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT FFS!!!!!!!!!
I MEAN REALLY YOUR OPINION COUNTS FOR NOTHING CAUSE YOU HAVE A DOG AND A GUN!!!!!!!!!!















Is that enough shouting?

 

[throdgrain]

War on Palestine? Explain please, Im confused.

edit, the The 1967 war between Israel and its neighbours perhaps?

 

[Tom]

The USA and Israel may be best buddies, it doesn't excuse Israel's war on Palestine.

How many security forces in the world can shoot down children 'because they were throwing stones' and get away with it?

Taken out of context you can make any situation questionable "OMG THOSE OFFICERS SHOT THAT MAN IT WAS ONLY A TABLE LEG WTF"



I'm with Throddy tbh. You can't keep looking to the past and using that as an excuse to direct your hatred. This country had a pretty sizeable empire that was effectively demolished by two world wars. Should we be slagging off Germany, Austria, Italy and Japan for this? Or should we just shrug our shoulders and get on with things?

Anyway I thought Islam forbade the worshipping of idols. Why they're so interested in a few dusty old walls and the odd temple is beyond me.

 

[throdgrain]

Its now that counts , not then. Like it or not, international politics etc make for strange bedfellows.



(fuck did I write that...)

 

[ECA]

Its now that counts, not then? tell that to the family of those murdered by stan tookie williams, with a straight face.

 

[throdgrain]

LoL thats truely clutching at straws . LMAO
So, it would have been better if they executed him much sooner would it?
(Thats my opinion by the way )
But what does it have to do with war and world politics, pray tell?

 

[Escape]

Taken out of context you can make any situation questionable "OMG THOSE OFFICERS SHOT THAT MAN IT WAS ONLY A TABLE LEG WTF"

With over 4000 Palestinians killed by Israel over the past few years, it's hardly going out of context.

Since when did the Israel/Palestine conflict become history? It's still happening. If after WW2, a group of Germans migrated to England and claimed it as their own. Then formed a state named Rheinland.

All English towns and villages are attacked and the population driven out of Rheinland(into Wales or Scotland). Rheinland becomes heavily developed by international funding, whilst the states of Wales and Scotland are nothing more than refugee camps.

Would you accept it?


It's easy to condemn the Palestinians for rebelling against Israel, but how many Europeans took in the Jewish refugees and offered their land for new settlements?

Much easier to let Palestine deal with it.

 

[Dommers]

To the original post about the "kill jew" thing.. Im jewish myself, i see alot of it online about kill jews etc. but tbh i just let it go past. people have their own opinions and if they want to share it up to them. i fucking hate oversensitive people who think they can stand up for other people and are not even that religion etc. what does it matter? kindly move on.

 

[throdgrain]

With over 4000 Palestinians killed by Israel over the past few years, it's hardly going out of context.

Since when did the Israel/Palestine conflict become history? It's still happening. If after WW2, a group of Germans migrated to England and claimed it as their own. Then formed a state named Rheinland.

All English towns and villages are attacked and the population driven out of Rheinland(into Wales or Scotland). Rheinland becomes heavily developed by international funding, whilst the states of Wales and Scotland are nothing more than refugee camps.

Would you accept it?


It's easy to condemn the Palestinians for rebelling against Israel, but how many Europeans took in the Jewish refugees and offered their land for new settlements?

Much easier to let Palestine deal with it.

The point is, that Israel was "given" to the Jews by the UN. They and the Arabs have been arguing over it for centuries, but before then it wasnt strictly speaking a state, but a province overseen by us the British. And before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire.
They didnt declare war on Palestine, and they only invaded the West bank after they were attacked by three Arab nations, that , by they way they defeated within 6 days. What would you do if you were jewish?
Strikes me that the Jews are doing more to promote the peace process inthat area than the Palastinians are, though Id admit its negligable

 

[Tom]

With over 4000 Palestinians killed by Israel over the past few years, it's hardly going out of context.

Well they should stop blowing themselves up in crowded markets then, killing women, children, and entire families - shouldn't they?

What I meant was that criticising a soldier for shooting a child armed with a rock is just plain silly. If you're a soldier, faced with an angry mob (including children) chucking big sharp stones at you, what are you going to do? Risk getting your head caved in, or shoot them? Its not like the Palestinians are chucking rocks for fun, is it? Do you think if they had weapons, they'd put them aside and pick up more rocks? Pull the other one tbh.

Its nothing to do with past British actions, or the UN, or the USA, or anybody. Its entirely to do with a minority of bigotted idiots in power who call upon the masses to carry out their instructions. If it wasn't for a few Arab nations attacking Israel and getting their arses handed to them, I doubt it would be a major issue today. The Iranian leader is just the latest fool to put his own aims and ambitions above those of ordinary peaceable men.

 

[Escape]

The point is, that Israel was "given" to the Jews by the UN.

What was the UN thinking:
"The Jews have just been through a catastrophe in Europe. Let's kick these Arabs out of Palestine and give it to the Jews"

As though it wouldn't cause any problems later?
What does the UN do apart from sit around when genocides are happening, then goes in to clean the shit.

Well they should stop blowing themselves up in crowded markets then, killing women, children, and entire families - shouldn't they?

...and the suicide bombers wouldn't kill Israelis if the Israelis didn't bulldoze their houses or demolish them in air strikes. It's a circular argument and if you want to say 'he started it first' you'll find yourself back at the point where Israeli soldiers were carrying out ethnic cleansing operations in 'New Israel'.

Israel has rightwing politicians with extreme views, Ariel Sharon is wanted for war crimes. How can there be peace, without justice?

 

[xane]

They are meant to like us, after two invasions and the installation of a patsy dictator who brutalised and looted the country, followed by the setting up of Isreal?

During the first world war, Britain and Russia fought over iran, and installed Reza Kahn as its leader, you can find more about his lovely reign on your own.

In 1941-46 we co-occupied it with the russians, and Kahns son took over, and was forced to introduce westernisation in the country, this lead to the religious backlash and revolution in 79.

We are directly responsible for the current state of Iran, its our fault.
And now because of our meddling they have a religious regime that intensely dislikes the western world, and they are now the enemy?.

Your argument warps the facts and seems to have started with the prejudgement of Britain. You have distorted British involvement in Iran and convieniently shortened its history to the last century or so.

As you well know, Iran/Persia, has been in existance far longer, pre-dating the British and Russian empires, even the rise of Islam, and Christianity, and the Romans. To think that Islamic Iran is some sort of "normality" is wrong, the true religion of Persia is Zoroastrianism.

You'd have more of a case blaming the Ottomans or Turks for the "religious backlash", as it was they who lost the Islamic Caliphate in the first place, prompting religious groups to try and re-establish it.

Your claim that Iran was "forced to introduced westernisation" is utter rubbish. Persian culture has always prided itself as leaders in technology and innovation throughout its history, in fact most of the "Arab" inventions that came to the West during the Dark Ages were of Persian origin.

Modernisation of Persia began in the 19th century, when the country was trapped between two expanding empires, the British in India and Tsarist Russia, both were technological superpowers and Persia caught on to avoid being totally ursuped, even installing a modern government. After WW1, Reza Kahn used oil money to invest in modernisation, industrialization, and building railways and universities, whilst he was certainly brutal, he did not "loot" the country.

As for British involvement, it was not all self-interest, and although the country became economically dependent on Europe, it was not "invaded" by Britain. Sure, the oil was a factor, but that has been in Persian/Iranian hands for a large part of its history. Britain's main interest was strategic, to stop oilfields getting into the hands of the enemy, be it the Communists, the Ottomans or the Nazis. In fact the reason Reza Kahn was disposed for fear of his Nazi sympathies.

And how Israel figures into this I certainly don't understand.

 

[Wij]

Right, so they are the enemy, because they dont like us?

They are meant to like us, after two invasions and the installation of a patsy dictator who brutalised and looted the country, followed by the setting up of Isreal?

I mean what? they should love us for that?
Do you seriously believe that?

During the first world war, Britain and Russia fought over iran, and installed Reza Kahn as its leader, you can find more about his lovely reign on your own.

In 1941-46 we co-occupied it with the russians, and Kahns son took over, and was forced to introduce westernisation in the country, this lead to the religious backlash and revolution in 79.

We are directly responsible for the current state of Iran, its our fault.
And now because of our meddling they have a religious regime that intensely dislikes the western world, and they are now the enemy?

Seriously throd, get your head out of your arse ( and the trashy daily ragpapers ) and into a history book and you might see how we are largely responsible for the mess that is the middle east.

I've met several Iranians who fled when the Shah was overthrown and am quite certain that Iranians were not universally glad to have a Dark-Age theocracy imposed on it.

I also fail to see your point. Throd wasn't arguing why the Iranian leaders hate us. It's just a fact at the moment. What are you trying to prove with your rhetoric ? Only your radical conscience as far as I can tell.

Also I'm surprised that an obviously educated British man would subsribe to such blatently racist propoganda. Just as Nazi leaders blamed Germany's ills on the Jews and the BNP blames Britain's ills on immigrants, Arab leaders use 'teh west !!!' in the same way. It simplifies the complex nature of international affairs to a good old-fashioned witch-hunt. It's a lot easier to blame every problem your country has on someone else than to sort them out and most people are happy with a simple answer. Whether they live in Europe or Asia people are just as happy to scapegoat.

Back to Iran. Forget all the history. The Holocaust did happen and to deny it is ridiculous.

 

[throdgrain]

Frankly Im fucking relieved that some people here can see my point.

 

[leggy]

Frankly Im fucking relieved that some people here can see my point.

I wish you would put it away tbh.

 

[Furr]

If only there was some possible way to remove our dependecy on oil, the rest of the world could then just leave the middle east. Then the Arabs would suddenly be back where they started.

Living in a hot, sandy area that no else cares about. We would be happy as there would be no need to be there, and the arabs would be happy because... well they'd probably end up killing each other, but it wouldn't be our problem.

The only reason that the place even features on the world stage is because of the oil, Also about the Iranian president, he's just trying to get his people united behind him and the best way to do that as Hitler and many other have found out is to blame a particular group of people. The Ayotollahs still completly control Iran and if the president pissed them off somehow he would dissapear.

Its a pitty that the area seems incapable to being able to embrace demoracy and human rights. Let Iran develop the nuclear bomb, they wouldn't be able to threaten us and if they ever used against another country they would be annilated by America ICBM's

 

[Trem]

Good post Furr.

Have a ciggie to celebrate.


I couldn't give up this week

 

[DaGaffer]

Don't have any affection for the Islamic states OR Isreal tbfh. But, to use an arab saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Israel isn't the first regime we've supported/propped up to counterbalance against enemies, and it won't be the last. Having said that, the US's inability to censure Israel over anything because of the power of the Jewish-American lobby is pretty depressing, and the Americans could do a lot to stem Anti-western feeling in the Middle East if they just gave Isreal a public slapping now and again (they do it behind closed doors, usually by cutting aid or weapons, but they can't be 'seen' to do it by the great American public).

As for all the ranting about "all the problems in the middle-east are our fault", probably, but so-fucking-what? All the problems everywhere are our fault if you take that stance; what we are supposed to do? Let every former colony or client state queue up to give us a kicking because of something our ancestors did? I don't think so.

 

[`mongoose]

Iranain president now dismissing the holocaust as a myth.

To quote a certain rap band, "Old son, your pm is a nutter"

it doesn't quite scan as well but it get's my sentiments accross nicely.

Doesn't any of his rehtoric alarm anyone else? We have an Imperialistic America atm united (apart from the liberal left who always get ignored over there) behind a Rambo President and whipped up by Media who are more blinkered than most pit donkeys.

Add to this some Iranian who's more or less standing out shouting "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough"

At what point will we stop invading countries that we don't agree with?

On the subject of his comments... well he's a muppet, frankly.

The whole Palestine situation is pretty grim however, whilst no minority has the right to bomb people left right and centre, it's on record that Israel have an equally poor record with atrocities on the palestinians. Now Israel might be our allies in this, but so are America and I don't see so many people defending them. Just because they're surrounded by enemies doesn't give their government the right to mow down civilians willy nilly and then call them all terrorists afterwards. Every mistake they make is food for the cause, sooner or later you have to stop shooting and start talking.

M