Internet lawyers in the house?

[Danya]

Saying you've left it too late is bullshit. Under the Distance Selling Regulations you have 28 days to return a product under any circumstance, so how can they say 'case closed' anyway?

7 working days actually. Which for an alleged delivery on 31st dec is 12th Jan. Also you don't have to return the product unless their contract stipulates that, if they don't stipulate that you have to return it, you merely have to make it available for them to collect.

BTW if you're having real problems getting any action you probably want the office of fair trading or your local trading standards, not OFCOM. The OFT covers distance selling and general issues with shops being dodgy.
A handy link: UK Distance Selling Act.

EDIT just found this on the OFT's page:
"If the date for delivery has passed and you haven't received anything, treat it as though you had never placed the order. If you have already paid, demand a full refund."
Sounds like it applies to you. Assuming I'm reading that correctly, no matter how long you have left it, you can demand a full refund if the goods have not been delivered - it's their responsibilty to ensure you get them after all, not yours.

 

[DaGaffer]

7 working days actually. Which for an alleged delivery on 31st dec is 12th Jan. Also you don't have to return the product unless their contract stipulates that, if they don't stipulate that you have to return it, you merely have to make it available for them to collect.

BTW if you're having real problems getting any action you probably want the office of fair trading or your local trading standards, not OFCOM. The OFT covers distance selling and general issues with shops being dodgy.
A handy link: UK Distance Selling Act.

EDIT just found this on the OFT's page:
"If the date for delivery has passed and you haven't received anything, treat it as though you had never placed the order. If you have already paid, demand a full refund."
Sounds like it applies to you. Assuming I'm reading that correctly, no matter how long you have left it, you can demand a full refund if the goods have not been delivered - it's their responsibilty to ensure you get them after all, not yours.

Depends what you're talking about - there's actually up to 30 days available for returns.

 

[Murray]

I'd forget it ever happened, it's most likely a lost cause.

Besides, the camera isn't THAT good!

 

[Utini]

Im gonna sit outside Murrays house and collect lots of £400 stuff he doesnt worry about.

 

[Murray]

Only things worth £400 that come through my front door are my kidneys. Anyone know a buyer?

I'll be selling off my daughters too when they're old enough, but that'll be in a few more years damnit.

 

[Utini]

Yeah think theres an old irish dude by the name of Best who might be interested.

 

[Chilly]

Yeah think theres an old irish dude by the name of Best who might be interested.

nah, hes in the market for a liver or two - kidneys are no problem

 

[Ch3tan]

LOL Ut

 

[Clown]

Help me write a letter.

Dear Manager,

I'm writing regarding an order I placed on the 30th December 2004. This package was put out for delivery on the 30th December 2004. To this date, I still have not received this package. I have been following the order status on the Citylink website since I received the confirmation email. I tried phoning my local Citylink depot (Wimbledon branch) several times during the week ending 7th January, but after listening to the 'Please Hold' music for almost 45 minutes each time, I hanged up. During all this time, the order status remained as "These goods are out for delivery". On the 10th January 2005 the status changed to "These goods have successfully been delivered".

On reading this, I phoned Internet Cameras Direct customer services. I was told by a male member of staff that it is the couriers who are liable for the package to be delivered to me, and I should contact them.

I then spent 30 minutes on hold to my local depot before I tried calling the Citylink head offices. They put me through to customer services, who told me to talk to the local depot. After over an hour on hold to the Wimbledon Citylink depot, I managed to get through. Apparently, these goods have been delivered to my address, and someone called Murray has signed for them. There is nobody at this address with that name. They advised me to call the senders, in this case the Internet Cameras Direct shop, who should contact their local depot (Bradford, I think it was), and put in a 'claim'.

So I called Internet Cameras Direct customer services for the second time that day, and got through to a female member of staff. I informed her of the situation, and told her about the order status only recently changing. She insisted that this was impossible. Was she trying to say that I couldn't read or that I was a liar? She also said that I took too long to report the delay of the delivery of my goods. Remember the earlier customer services representative who referred me back to the courier service? A bit of conflicting advice there. The lady went on to say that she would put in a claim to her manager, and it could take 7 days before it was considered. When asked what would happen if my claim was rejected, the reply was that “we would cross that bridge when we got there”. Not very helpful, but okay.

Now, I need to find out where I stand. I have no camera, and around £400 has been taken from my account. There is a camera out there that the delivery has been signed by a random member of public. If it was delivered to a neighbour, then is it not standard practise to leave a card saying so? If it has been delivered to my house, then I'm sure the signature that signed for it will not match anyone at this household. How could we get a copy of the proof of delivery?

I have no doubt that the blame lies almost entirely with the courier company, as I've had problems with Citylink coming to my home before (with another company). But I also believe that you have the responsibility of getting the goods to me, as ordered, on time, to the correct person and address. I shouldn't have to chase up the whereabouts of my parcel, wasting time on hold and listening to rubbish music.

Blah blah blah...

I'm so shit at this, considering I haven't had to do it before.

 

[nath]

The bit at the end about you having problems with citylink delivering to you - personally I'd remove it. It changes the focus of blame from them to (at least a bit) you. You could get the same point across (citylink are shit) by saying that you know of several people who've had similar problems with them, without the possibility of them turning it round and saying you're at fault because of where you live or whatever.

Granted this is probably being overly pedantic and chances are they'd not jump to that conclusion anyway, but I'd do it anyway. Otherwise, I think it seems pretty good. Maybe finish the letter with what you want done - i.e. to be refunded or have another camera sent out to you by a different courier. It's their problem to deal with finding the existing one out there.

 

[Cask]

Citylink do deliveries too? I thought they just manufactured failed delivery notes.

 

[Clown]

Would I bring the long distance selling regulations up? They are meant to have 30 days to send me my goods or provide a service, and when that time is up, they have 30 days to refund my money.

 

[nath]

I Imagine the e-mail as it stands will do the job and reminding them of long distance selling regulations probably isn't necessary right away. Can't hurt though.

 

[Danya]

After hearing all this, I'm definitely going to use my CC for all internet purchases.

 

[Nos]

but after listening to the 'Please Hold' music for almost 45 minutes each time, I hanged up

HUNG up.

 

[Xavier]

Definately mention the OFT and the distance selling act - it can't hurt for them to know you're not daft, and the sooner they realise they're liable (and you know it) the matter will get the proper attention it requires. If they get all defensive when it's mentioned, simply point out they've kept you in the dark for long enough that you've been forced to research your legal rights... If they were dealing with this properly to begin with you'd have a camera and they'd have notched up one more happy customer.

Personally I'd pursue the official line without any deviation, request a refund as soon as you're eligible - they've failed to provide any goods. If they want to claim against citylink that's their perogative - in the eyes of the law any action taken on their side to retrieve their goods (they're not yours until you take receipt of them) cannot interfere with your rights as a customer, nor their responsability as the seller.

You might even want to go so far as to include a reasonable deadline for resolution, no more than 7 days imho - which is more than ample for them to take the half hour out needed to get a copy of the courier paperwork faxed across and either arrange for a new camera to be sent (with some kind of token compensation - a free memory card?) or a refund in full.

If/when they don't comply you've got them by the short and curlies to lodge a proper complaint, but if they've any sense at all they won't let it get that far.

Oh, and nath is spot on - the citylink comment turns the focus of blame from them to you and the courier, it's as much their responsability to get the goods to you as initial/citylink and they choose to use them as a courier, noone is holding a gun to their heads. You know they're shit, we all know it - but they're still being paid to provide a service which thus far you haven't recieved.

You may feel like a bit uneasy getting on the offensive with the above, but once these guys have gotten your situation sorted they'll neither remember nor care, so you might as well get it done as quickly as possible and with the best possible outcome for yourself...

 

[Tilda]

Start with "To whom it may concern" or "Dear Sir or Madam" rather than the dear Manager.

I'd remove the retorical questions, like "Was she trying to say that I couldn't read or that I was a liar?"

"I hanged up" hung!!

I'd change "How could we get a copy of the proof of delivery?" to, can you supply me with a proof of delivery, or, do you have a proof of delivery.

I wouldn't ask them where you stand, it makes you look in a weak position and they may just fire back a "not our fault sorry" letter. You know where you stand, they have to sort your cash out.

I'd finish off with a breif summary instead of the last two paragraphs I think, perhaps finishing off with a statement of what you would like to happen next. Inlude a date for them to reply to you by letter(or atleast make some sort of contact), and a date for when you'd like to see your new camera (+ extra memory card ofc) or a reasonable sum of money (camera + interest + postage costs + reasonable phone costs).

Its not a badly written letter imo, good job

Tilda

 

[Danya]

You won't get interest, but you're well within your rights to demand the refund of cost of goods and any postage. Not sure on phone costs either.

 

[Clown]

Hello

I am currently trying to investigate your missing parcel and have now submitted a claim to the courier service.

Unfortunately I am currently awaiting a response as obviously the parcel has been signed for and they must perform a full investigation and interviews with the driver concerned.

I would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused by this delay but will contact you once a decision has been reach.

Yours Sincerely

Well, they're getting on with it without me even having to check up on them. At least they do what they say. Would I wait for these enquiries to go through before I send them a letter, or should I demand the 30 day limit for goods?

 

[nath]

Why should you wait for then to refund you/send you another camera while they work out what happened with the couriers? This may be a tough shit situation, but it seems that they should be dealing with you at the same time as the couriers. I'm not sure if you'd have a leg to stand on if you took this stance with them though.

 

[Clown]

Is this Distance Selling Regulation a real law, and can I refer them to that website above (and their own T&Cs)?

 

[Tom]

When you ordered it, you most likely ticked a box stating you'd read their T&C. Try and get a copy of that T&C and post it all here.

 

[Tilda]

Is this Distance Selling Regulation a real law, and can I refer them to that website above (and their own T&Cs)?

As its a Regulation, its likley to come from the EU. Therefore its directly applicable under UK law thanks to the European Communities Act 1972.
So although its not a "law*" it is applicable and enforcable in the UK.

I'd be tempted to hold off on the letter for now, see what they say after the search. Look at it from their perspective, for all you know, you could have got a friend to sign for it and then could be trying to get a free camera off them. I'd give them a chance to do their investigation and get back to you before firing off a letter.

Tilda

*law being a statue passed by parliament.

 

[Danya]

While the distance selling act is enforcable, you'll likely have to go to the small claims court for this sort of thing. The OFT will only act against a company to prevent it from mistreating other consumers, they don't support individual cases.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Latest result: Last letter of complaint to the HSBC has returned a refund on the telephone calls made, plus a further £20 for the time wasted.

 

[venus]

I would still make a complaint because no matter what the outcome, somewhere along the line someone has made a mistake, and unless you complain they won’t do anything about it. At the end of the day whether they sort it out or not, this has caused you some inconvenience and unnecessary stress. I would personally wait and see what happens at the moment, but in the meantime start to build your complaint. Send the complaint as soon as the situation is resolved.

When writing the complaint try to stick solely to the facts, try not to include too much of your own personal opinion as they will not appreciate it. They will not be able to argue with the facts. Try to make the complaint look as professional as possible and you’re more likely to get a positive response. List any financial cost this has caused you e.g. cost of phone calls etc including copies of phone bills. Also mention the amount of time you have had to spend trying to sort out their mess. Make sure you get it triple checked by some of the guys on here before sending anything.

In future when speaking to any member of their company on the phone take note of their first name (they do not have to give you their full name but they should be happy to give you their first name) and include it in your complaint, also log the times and dates of your calls. This will give them a trail to track back the problem but will also show that you are not trying to pull a fast one. Be aware of your legal rights before sending any form of complaint or speaking to them, if you appear to know what you are doing they will be less inclined to argue with you.


Hope this helps and if it is any comfort to you then this worked for me in a similar situation. I ended up getting £90 compensation for the cost of my calls to a particular company and a bit extra chucked on top for my inconvenience, which under the circumstances of my situation wasn’t bad.

Hope this gets sorted out for you

 

[Clown]

Hello


I have received contact back from our courier today and unfortunately they have declined our claim.

They have confirmed that the parcel was delivered to

<My address>

They have also confirmed that the parcel was signed for at this address on 31st December 2005.

I can now only suggest that this be taken up with Initial City Link directly as they may be able to offer more detailed information to yourself and if we can be of any assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us again.

Yours Sincerely

Time to die mother fuckers. I'll post an updated version of my letter when I get home. Then you lot can tear it apart and help me win the internet.

 

[venus]

Time to declare WAR

 

[Padwah]

Time to die mother fuckers. I'll post an updated version of my letter when I get home. Then you lot can tear it apart and help me win the internet.

Bastards! The supremely annoying thing is htat City Link won't be interested intalking to you as you don't actually have a contract with them, only the shop that you placed the order with. Have you had a word with your bank to see if there's any thing they can do?

 

[Clown]

Dear Ms. Walsh,

I'm writing regarding the order I placed on the 29th December 2004. This package was put out for delivery on the 30th December 2004. To this date, I still have not received this package. I have been following the order status on the Citylink website since I received the confirmation email. I tried phoning my local Citylink depot (Wimbledon branch) several times during the week ending 7th January, but after listening to the 'Please Hold' music for almost 45 minutes each time, I hung up. During all this time, the order status remained as "These goods are out for delivery". On the 10th January 2005 the status changed to "These goods have successfully been delivered".

Upon reading this, I phoned Internet Cameras Direct customer services. I was told by a male member of staff that it is the couriers who are liable for the package to be delivered to me, and I should contact them.

I then spent 30 minutes on hold to my local depot before I gave up, and tried calling the Citylink head offices. They put me through to customer services, who told me to talk to the local depot. After over an hour on hold to the Wimbledon Citylink depot, I managed to get through. Apparently, these goods have been delivered to my address, and someone called 'Murray' has signed for it. There is nobody at this address with that name. They advised me to call the senders, in this case the Internet Cameras Direct shop, who should contact their local depot (Bradford, I think it was), and put in a 'claim'.

So I called Internet Cameras Direct customer services for the second time that day, and got through to a female member of staff. I informed her of the situation, and told her about the order status only recently changing. She insisted that this was impossible. Is is not impossible. The order status had definitely only just updated that day. She also said that I took too long to report the delay of the delivery of my goods. Remember the earlier customer services representative who referred me back to the courier service? A bit of conflicting advice there. The lady went on to say that she would put in a claim to her manager, and it could take 7 days before it was considered. When asked what would happen if my claim was rejected, the reply was that “we would cross that bridge when we got there”. Not very helpful, but okay for the moment.

The situation right now - I have no camera, just under £400 has been taken from my account, and I've spent time that I should not have had to spend chasing up this problem. There is a camera out there that the delivery has been signed by a random member of public. If it was delivered to a neighbour, then is it not standard practice to leave a card saying so? If it has been delivered to my house, then I'm sure the signature that signed for it will not match anyone at this household.
Now I've read about problems with this courer company on the internet, and have personal friends who have had a lot of bother with them. But I also believe that you have the responsibility of getting the goods to me, as ordered, on time, to the correct person and address. I agreed to your terms and conditions as stated on your website, that comply with the Distance Selling Regulations. Under these regulations I expected my order to reach me within 30 days. Since the goods have still not arrived here, I want to cancel the contract and arrange a full refund.

I look forward to your reply within 14 days, and hope this matter can be sorted out quickly.

Yours sincerely,

Andrew Burton

Including the addresses at the top and space for me to sign, this letter takes up 1 and 1/4 pages. Is this letter okay? Anything else I should change?

It's addressed to the lady who sent in the claim to CityLink, the Call Centre Manager. I tried phoning today, but the lady is on holidays. Should I address the letter to her or a manager above her? Should I forward the letter to anyone else? Should I try calling the Citizen's Advice Bureau now?