Interesting discussion.

[old.Tohtori]

The problem is as someone like yourself who does not want or enjoy children you could not make a true statment about how much someone who has been trying for a child feels when they eventually discover they are going to get one.

Did i ever claim that?!

F*cks sake get your head out of your ass and stop trying to make it look like i'm attaking your parenting or kids.

No I said you can't 100% know you won't ever change your mind. I am saying I know 100% you cannot know how a wannabe parent feels when they discover they could be having one. Unless ofc you break your own rule and change your mind......

And how do you know that a 100% hmm? Or are you speculating? And what the f*ck does it have to do with anything?

THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHILDREN! IT WAS AN EXAMPLE! IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE QUESTION BESIDES SCALE!

Do you speak your own language assholes?

And surprise, Calaen can't answer one question.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Just a final effort to ask, so that i know what i did so horribly wrong;

Where did i claim anything against children? People having children? Where did i claim games are more important?

Where?

Or did you lovely parents assume a defensive and irrational stance the minute someone even had the incline of insiniuating that kid are not important?

Think about it.

Just take a look at the original post, read it with care and try to see if i really was the bad man trying to kill your kids.

 

[liloe]

That would make sense if all we were interested in were endorphins or 'pleasurable experiences'. I'm not. Certainly not in wanting to have children. Having children seems valuable in itself and that's the reason why I want it. I don't just want children for the pleasurable experience that come with it. I want them for themselves.

(Obviously the joy you get out of it isn't completely unimportant, but there is much more to it than that.)

I put in endorphins as placeholder for any objective thing you can measure with a test =) Now don't get me wrong if I say "what you feel is irrelevant", I just mean that in a scientific way =) I'm no expert when it comes to biology, so I'm not going to insist on my idea as well. All I wanted to say is that maybe there would be an objective way to measure "happiness" by the amount of any hormone or whatever in the human body =)

Nothing wrong with not wanting children at all, for the first 7 years of my relationship with my wife, we did not want to have any kids, so we could travel, and enjoy our own company before bringing something else into the relationship. The problem is as someone like yourself who does not want or enjoy children you could not make a true statment about how much someone who has been trying for a child feels when they eventually discover they are going to get one.

Of course you could have an opinion of what you feel someone would feel like, but if you then get 100% of the parents telling you that you are wrong and it is something even they cannot describe, you would probably realise it's a wasted exercise.

True. It's hard to imagine something you haven't felt yourself and even scaling is kinda hard (scaling as in: "I know I don't want to stab myself because I once cut my finger with a knife" or "Driving Formula 1 must be cool; I already drove go-cart"), because there is nothing comparable.

Feelings kinda fall into a philosophical area and therefore I don't even try to guess what other people feel when they are about to get the child they always wanted =) That's also the reason I'm not gonna discuss that ^^ Well at least neither seriously nor in public

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

Guess we now know why Toht doesn't want kids.... He's still a toddler himself. Stomping his feet and crying when people don't agree with him.

Toht, your comparison was way off from the get go. If you took a minute to think it through you would've seen it. What did you expect to get for replies here?
I'm not much of a child-fan myself either. As it currently stands I don't want any children myself either. I don't know what the future brings though so I don't know how I'll feel then, but for the moment, no thanks. I do however know, that no matter what you are anticipating on, the scale, importance and weight of the object or event you're waiting on is very much an effect on the level of anticipation, and since a game is a luxury item that you'll toss away after 3 months and a baby is a person, human being which you'll have to commit to for atleast the coming 18 years, PLUS is one of the most basic instincts of humans, you cannot seriously compare the anticipation towards either.

Also, check the maslow hierarchy of needs and when comparing two things, atleast pick two that are on the same level (and learn some basic psychology).

 

[noblok]

I put in endorphins as placeholder for any objective thing you can measure with a test =) Now don't get me wrong if I say "what you feel is irrelevant", I just mean that in a scientific way =) I'm no expert when it comes to biology, so I'm not going to insist on my idea as well. All I wanted to say is that maybe there would be an objective way to measure "happiness" by the amount of any hormone or whatever in the human body =)

Yeah, I just wanted to say that there are certain very important elements to it you can't put in objectively measurable variables. I'm not interested in living my life plugged into an experience machine*. I want real experiences, real things. The reason why I want these things is only partly the enjoyment I get out of it. I also want them for themselves, because they seem to have something valuable to them that can't be replaced by something else producing the same amount of endorphins (or utility, whatever objectively measurable variable you want).

Now, to return to old.Tohtori's original question: this is why I think one can say that some things are more valuable than other and why the strength of the desire/pleasure derived from it isn't the only important aspect. The desire itself seems to tell that it's not only about us, but also about something of importance in the actual thing itself. (This argument doesn't work for the few individuals who'd have no problems plugging into the experience machine, obviously.)


* Experience Machine

 

[liloe]

Yeah, I just wanted to say that there are certain very important elements to it you can't put in objectively measurable variables. I'm not interested in living my life plugged into an experience machine*. I want real experiences, real things. The reason why I want these things is only partly the enjoyment I get out of it. I also want them for themselves, because they seem to have something valuable to them that can't be replaced by something else producing the same amount of endorphins (or utility, whatever objectively measurable variable you want).

…

Nice link with the experience machine, but that's going in a really philosophical direction I guess discussing that could take forever =) Nonetheless very interesting, thank you =)

 

[CorNokZ]

Mass Effect 2 = Having children according to toht.. It all makes sense tbh

 

[Calaen]

And how do you know that a 100% hmm? Or are you speculating? And what the f*ck does it have to do with anything?

Because it's 100% fact, you can't tell me how a parent feels when they aer expecting a child because YOU don't know.

It's like you telling me that the experience of heroine isn't that good, when you have never taken it. You can't possibly comment , so I know 100% that your opinion on it is tosh.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Guess we now know why Toht doesn't want kids.... He's still a toddler himself. Stomping his feet and crying when people don't agree with him.

Yeah stopped reading right there, f*ck off.

I don't give two f*cks if you don't agree with me, what i do expect is people not taking potshots for something i didn't say!

Moronic fingerpointing and insulting where it's not even valid.

But hey, great that THOSE people get children.

Mass Effect 2 = Having children according to toht.. It all makes sense tbh

Never said that.

Good to know noone can show me where i said what is claimed, can ignore those.

Because it's 100% fact, you can't tell me how a parent feels when they aer expecting a child because YOU don't know.

It's excellent that you've read my life book then and know for a 100% that.

All you know for a fact is that i don't want my own children, that i want to adopt instead and that i don't have a kid now.

 

[mooSe_]

I think it is pretty obvious that the events in the example are incomparable. It also seems to me that 'importance' when talking about what an individual wants is entirely subjective, making any comparisons meaningless anyway. My verdict: pointless thread.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think it is pretty obvious that the events in the example are incomparable. It also seems to me that 'importance' when talking about what an individual wants is entirely subjective, making any comparisons meaningless anyway. My verdict: pointless thread.

That the whole basis.

If it's subjective to individuals, isn't saying "games are less then kids"(or vice versa or ANY item) in expectance value a false statement, if the individual has the equal desire for an object.

 

[soze]

Tohtori I'm sure you do this on purpose if you just want a discussion on if two different things can cause the same feeling and emotions you could have picked a different example. I reckon like most stuff you picked an example you knew would start a flame war because you enjoy it.

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

Yeah stopped reading right there, f*ck off.
<snip>

Why is it, that you're allowed to [post=3609712]call people assholes[/post], and shout etc it's okay and we have to take it, but if I call you a toddler, which in my opinion isn't even in the same realm of namecalling, it's suddenly moronic fingerpointing and insulting?

 

[mooSe_]

That the whole basis.

If it's subjective to individuals, isn't saying "games are less then kids"(or vice versa or ANY item) in expectance value a false statement, if the individual has the equal desire for an object.

Yeah I would agree that saying "games are less than kids" when talking about what is objectively the case rather than ones own preferences is a false statement.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Tohtori I'm sure you do this on purpose if you just want a discussion on if two different things can cause the same feeling and emotions you could have picked a different example. I reckon like most stuff you picked an example you knew would start a flame war because you enjoy it.

Explained already why i chose the child example, i expected people not to get personal with it and take a subjective stance on the discussion.

Games to kids, wide range.

The key element being that they are hypothetical, examples, not comparisons.

I never claimed one was better then other.

Why is it, that you're allowed to [post=3609712]call people assholes[/post], and shout etc it's okay and we have to take it, but if I call you a toddler, which in my opinion isn't even in the same realm of namecalling, it's suddenly moronic fingerpointing and insulting?

Didn't call you an asshole, i returned peoples potshots at me, since you decided to take one, i gave you a proper answer.

If you can't see why it might piss me off that people assume, lie and claim things about me when i've done no such thing or said no such thing, then you've got the issue here.

I can ask you too; where did i do what people accuse me of?

Yeah I would agree that saying "games are less than kids" when talking about what is objectively the case rather than ones own preferences is a false statement.

Thank you, that's what my opinion on it was too. You can only measure items worth and the desires validity on own preferences, and as such imposing those on other peoples worth and desire is false. (in my opinion,, don't know if you agree on that).

 

[Raven]

back peddle, change the subject, contradict, claim something meant something else, contradict, change the subject, back peddle.

Madness

 

[Jupitus]

Didn't call you an asshole<snip>

Really?

Did i ever claim that?!

F*cks sake get your head out of your ass and stop trying to make it look like i'm attaking your parenting or kids.



And how do you know that a 100% hmm? Or are you speculating? And what the f*ck does it have to do with anything?

THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHILDREN! IT WAS AN EXAMPLE! IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE QUESTION BESIDES SCALE!

Do you speak your own language assholes?

And surprise, Calaen can't answer one question.

Well...this post contained 2 quotes from Calaen, so you might argue that your 'assholes' reference was aimed at him, but then why would it be plural and why would you then refer to Calaen in the 3rd person rather than the 2nd person?

No - 'Do you speak your own language assholes?' implies you are referring to many people, and without qualification one would assume you mean anyone reading your comment.....

 

[Ch3tan]

lulz!

Ahh you guys, always feeding the animals.

 

[Thorwyn]

THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHILDREN! IT WAS AN EXAMPLE! IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE QUESTION BESIDES SCALE!

But if that´s the case, then why didn´t you drop the discussion about children as soon as it became obvious that it didn´t really help your point? You must admit that you nurtured (*g*) the thread for quite a long time, sticking to your initial example. A simple "oops, this example is maybe too emotional to illustrate my point, forget about the children... let´s replace it with YX"?!

It was rather clear that this topic would end the way it ended. It became a meta-discussion pretty early, because your opinion about kids is well known and has been discussed here before.

 

[TdC]

Madness

 

[old.Tohtori]

Actually no, let's just drop it.

 

[Golena]

To answer the very first question. They are equally important.

The question was clearly "Is someones dreams in life more important than someone elses's dreams in life?". In the same way That Calean said that Toht couldn't comment on having a kid, i'm sure he's never wanted a video game in the same way as the guy in Toht's first example so he can't comment on that either according to his logic so shouldn't be in the thread either!

More people in the world would say the kid is more important. That doesn't make that life view automatically correct. A 15 year old idiot can want and have a kid. I'd hardly say that qualifies them more to discuss what is clearly a philosophical point than someone who hasn't run around shagging every chav that moves.

A kid != to a computer game.
Person A's life dream == Person B's life dream (no matter what that is).

 

[russell]

Fair enough Golena -your explanation is clear and I get it.

Toht always pops in child references to provoke a reaction and in a 'i'm so original in my viewpoint -get me' way and it pisses me right off.

He likes to look at things from a different angle which can be interesting at times, but to ressurect the child issues again is just crass. Its like he wears his lack of humanity and compassion as a badge of honour and the rest of us are lacking or deemed inferior as we dont share his very intellectual viewpoint.

Well bah, I'm a human female, who is a mother so it is going to rile me.

 

[Calaen]

To answer the very first question. They are equally important.

The question was clearly "Is someones dreams in life more important than someone elses's dreams in life?". In the same way That Calean said that Toht couldn't comment on having a kid, i'm sure he's never wanted a video game in the same way as the guy in Toht's first example so he can't comment on that either according to his logic so shouldn't be in the thread either!

If you actually read my posts early on I have experienced, both.

I have waited for months/years for games that I really loved to get a sequel, I waited for a year for the Wii and I camped out to make sure I got it.

Buying said games and calling in sick at work/college because all I wanted to do was play the game I had been waiting for for so long!

When I ordered my first car it was 12 weeks of pure excitement waiting for it to arrive, and as I answered earlier I can't even compare anything like to what waiting for a child was, especially after my wife miscarrying twice.

So I am able to comment from both sides, however when the time comes when I am asked a question I don;t know nothing about you can be sure I won't be arguing about it.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Golena got it dead on, atleast someone did.

Fair enough Golena -your explanation is clear and I get it.

Toht always pops in child references to provoke a reaction and in a 'i'm so original in my viewpoint -get me' way and it pisses me right off.

He likes to look at things from a different angle which can be interesting at times, but to ressurect the child issues again is just crass. Its like he wears his lack of humanity and compassion as a badge of honour and the rest of us are lacking or deemed inferior as we dont share his very intellectual viewpoint.

Well bah, I'm a human female, who is a mother so it is going to rile me.

You know what pisses me right off? That. Claims that i do soemthign on purpose, that i "act inhuman", that i use child references to piss people off.

That is utter and complete bullcrap, yet because it's me, it pisses you off. I said the very same thing as Golena. Exactly. Why is ti different?

You can be angry at me for saying some thing in some point of time which you as a female hold against me for all eternity(as you do), but don't come into a thread i started to have a discussion about an issue i found interesting and spew lies and blames of things i havent' done.

You don't like child examples? Boo f*cking hoo, i don't like some things you do but you have the freedom to write about them WITHOUT inaccurate judging.

So how about YOU take a look at your own actions and stop the blame game.

AND FYI; What was so horrible about the example of the child? Can you answer what was so bad that i did? I used a child example? Is that a horrible crime now?

If you actually read my posts early on I have experienced, both.

I have waited for months/years for games that I really loved to get a sequel, I waited for a year for the Wii and I camped out to make sure I got it.

Buying said games and calling in sick at work/college because all I wanted to do was play the game I had been waiting for for so long!

When I ordered my first car it was 12 weeks of pure excitement waiting for it to arrive, and as I answered earlier I can't even compare anything like to what waiting for a child was, especially after my wife miscarrying twice.

So I am able to comment from both sides, however when the time comes when I am asked a question I don;t know nothing about you can be sure I won't be arguing about it.

Why didn't you offer that experience then? Why did you start with what you did? See what i mean that you might have fault there?

On the answer you gave now, that should've been pages ago;

Is your experience and anticipation exactly the same as everyone elses? Just because you've experienced and DO think that your experience was more powerful, there are people out there who don't feel as strongly about it.

It can be an opinion, but if someone doesn't share that feelset, would it be any less valid?

And Jupitus; assholes was clearly meant towards those people that bring in the bullshit claims and start with the insults no matter what the thread, just because i posted it.

To Thorwyn; evidently my opinion on kids isn't known, as is clearly seen on this thread.

 

[Calaen]

On the answer you gave now, that should've been pages ago;

What like this on page one?

I have a child that I wanted, but I also stay up all night to play on my mmo if I so wish, and get excited about a new car that I want, or a movie or book.

And the later things are not even comparable, wanting a child is not selfish, for most it's just the next phase in a growing relationship. Now if some female wants to get prgnant to trap their partner in a relationship that is selfish. Two people of similar mindsets creating a family, there is nothing selfish about it.

Is your experience and anticipation exactly the same as everyone elses? Just because you've experienced and DO think that your experience was more powerful, there are people out there who don't feel as strongly about it.

No my experience and anticipation won't be the same as everyone elses, but I would imagine anyone that actually wants a child they too would become so involved in it's soon to be existence that everything else seems somewhat insignificant. If you had of said someone was waiting for a book or a car, there would not have been a problem, but you can't just remove all of the other emotions you get/go through which increases the importance as the day gets closer.

That is my opinion as a father, I can't even begin to understand what my Wife or any other mother was going through, carrying it around, having her own emotions affected by the baby growing inside her.

 

[old.Tohtori]

What like this on page one?

No my experience and anticipation won't be the same as everyone elses, but I would imagine anyone that actually wants a child they too would become so involved in it's soon to be existence that everything else seems somewhat insignificant. If you had of said someone was waiting for a book or a car, there would not have been a problem, but you can't just remove all of the other emotions you get/go through which increases the importance as the day gets closer.

That is my opinion as a father, I can't even begin to understand what my Wife or any other mother was going through, carrying it around, having her own emotions affected by the baby growing inside her.

Meant more towards this on page 1;

And your suprised Considering who posted this, I'd say it's been a while since he caused an argument!!

Only he would compare the expectations dreams a couple has of wanting a child to some geek waiting for a computer game.

How do you think my attitude towards you is from that on? Was that realyl necessary? Was it even accurate?

No. So next time maybe just answer it and we can a bit more polite.

Now, you can assume "I would imagine anyone that actually wants a child they too would become so involved in it's soon to be existence that everything else seems somewhat insignificant.", but you also have to accept that not everyone would. That's why i asked and you seem to leaning towards "No, even with equal emotion, things aren't equal." which i find wrong.

Can correct me.

 

[Sparx]

i havent look at a single post here only the first one.

I bet this has turned nasty once again


im getting my coat and leaving this post toodlepip

 

[Calaen]

That's why i asked and you seem to leaning towards "No, even with equal emotion, things aren't equal." which i find wrong.

Can correct me.

No I stand firmly in the why compare a baby to a video game, and then try and remove eveything that makes it special just to get your desired answer camp!

 

[Bugz]

Toht this thread was doomed to failure when you asked two separate questions in your first post

'arent these equally important' <- which has caused everyone to disagree. Rightly so. The overall importance of a child greatly outclasses that of a video game.

'If something is dear to someone, is waited for a long time, does it matter what that thing is, if the anticipation and desire are equal to individual persons?' <- which a lot of us have agreed with.

What you have in fact done throughout this thread is moulded the two together when really a lot of us have taken them as separates.

You haven't tried to reinforce your question/explain it better/differentiate the two questions further at all during the 8-9 pages this thread has expanded into. Instead, you argue at the same level as the toht-bashers (which is always a recipe for disaster) & when someone finally comes along who says what you want, you make it out as though everyone else failed to see the point.

The fact is - you have offered no direction or stimulus to the thread, no reinforcement of the original two questions and that is why we are here now/.