Interesting discussion.

[old.Tohtori]

Had this with a person(like ti matters who );

First;

Couple A waits for a kid for 2 years. Tries and tries, no go, and finally that one day they find out that she's pregnant. Kid is in the way and all the expectations, all the hopes and dreams are coming true.

Marvelous right?

Second;

A gamer is a huge fan of Megakill 2000. Greatest shooter ever. Can't get enough. He hears that in two years, "Megakill 3000 - Extra kill!" is coming out. He waits and waits, speculates, writes on forums, draws fan arts, and finally that day comes and he gets the game.

Good times.

Now, the question here is; aren't these two equally important?

Forget about what the kid can do, species lastivity etc.

If something is dear to someone, is waited for a long time, does it matter what that thing is, if the anticipation and desire are equal to individual persons?

 

[Overdriven]

I want to say both of them are about the same, but I can't. (Probably going to latch onto the next part) A kid takes a lot longer than a game to 'develop' and a new one won't be around every 2-3 years or so.. The people trying for the kid I think is actually more important. A child can't be cancelled, a child can't be sold to a better developer or given 25 expansions.

It's a bit odd to actually ask that, I mean, I've been waiting for things like Gran Turismo 5 for years now, really waiting.. But if I were trying for a kid for a year, I think the Kid would actually be better.. It really does depend on the person and how they prioritize things..

 

[Thorwyn]

Obviously you can isolate and scale down almost anything to "wait for it, get it, be happy", starting from ordering a beer to winning the lottery. The level of importance for the person in question might be the same (depending on the person of course). The level of importance of the event IMO is not.
There are a couple of differences...

A child means responsibility, a game doesn´t. If you don´t like the game, you can just toss it into the bin. Can´t do that with a kid. And consequently: if you lose the child for some reason, you can´t just replace it. If you lose the Megakill DVD, you can buy it again. The risk is higher, the relation of hope, fear and expectation is more important.

A child is something *you* produce, together with your partner. It´s a personal thing, like your first date, your first kiss, your first breakup. You don´t just share something with millions of other people, getting a copy of something that was made by someone else.

If we´re not talking about a very special kind of gamer, I assume that "Megakill 2000" was not the first game that this guy ever played. Chances are, that "Megakill 2000" is one of dozends or hundreds of games that he played and although "Megakill 3000 - extra kill" may be something he is really looking forward to, it still remains just one of many. I think it´s safe to say that giving birth to a child is something that happens a lot less in a normal person´s lifetime.

 

[DocWolfe]

A kid is a lot more responsibility that a game surely, so you can't compare the two. The person who wants the kid is embarking on a lifelong commitment, it's not just about whether or not they would like to have something.

The person who wants to play the game is purely selfish - they want to do something for their own personal enjoyment. The person who wants the kid might be being selfish for wanting one, but they are also bringing another life into this world, the nurturing and caring for this child will not be selfish.

In my opinion, the two aren't comparable and there shouldn't even be a discussion. You've got a one dimensional mind-set if you think that playing a video game is more important.

 

[Calaen]

In my opinion, the two aren't comparable and there shouldn't even be a discussion. You've got a one dimensional mind-set if you think that playing a video game is more important.

And your suprised Considering who posted this, I'd say it's been a while since he caused an argument!!

Only he would compare the expectations dreams a couple has of wanting a child to some geek waiting for a computer game.

 

[old.Tohtori]

People are concentrating too much on the "what is a kid" here. Those are examples, you should concentrate on the question... but fine;

Getting a kid is selfish, nothing more. You're getting a kid because you want to. It is a purely selfish act no matter how you turn it. You have to raise it, but that's your decicion. Like getting a dog. "Ooh cute puppy i wantrs it!" selfish, but effects may be seen as non.

You can cancel a kid, you can also give it away if you don't want it.

If you get bored of a kid, you can give it away. Rather easily too.

If you lose a kid, it takes around a year to replace it.

Cold? Yes, but true. If you get emotional about it, you're not thinking about the question, you're concentrating on the "what is kid?" part again and of your own desires.

A game can be a life long commitment too, take MMOs for example. Years and years, night staying up, strict time tables, emotional connections etc. Just as a kid.

Only diffference being that someone might have the opinion that a kid is more important.

You can only say that the kid is more important if you think that a kid IS more important to your life. If someone holds no value to a kid and doesn't care for one, a game, an education, a promotion, a new movie and so on is mroe important and can be a, note; object of anticipation and desire to an equal amount if not more.

What you want, what the object is, doesn't matter beyond own wants and needs and as such, since i'm guessing everyone agrees that everyone has the same rights to life, they are equal.

And your suprised Considering who posted this, I'd say it's been a while since he caused an argument!!

Only he would compare the expectations dreams a couple has of wanting a child to some geek waiting for a computer game.

F*ck off if that's all you can contribute.

Though Calaen is a perfect point for it; because he's such kid-person, anyones elses desires, needs, wants or dreams are geeky, stupid, non-relevant.

In other words; thinking they're mroe special due to community happening to think "kids is cute".

If you want to contirbute, answer why;

Why is waiting ad hoping for a kid more important?(not raising the kid, none of that, the waiting, hoping, enjoyment of getting one)

 

[Calaen]

hahah you fucking drop out, selfish has nothing to do with it.

I have a child that I wanted, but I also stay up all night to play on my mmo if I so wish, and get excited about a new car that I want, or a movie or book.

And the later things are not even comparable, wanting a child is not selfish, for most it's just the next phase in a growing relationship. Now if some female wants to get prgnant to trap their partner in a relationship that is selfish. Two people of similar mindsets creating a family, there is nothing selfish about it.

I do understand you though, your probably not going to meet anyone to make you happy, so you protect yourself from harms way by convincing yourself you are happy to be alone for the rest of your life.

 

[Calaen]

Why is waiting ad hoping for a kid more important?(not raising the kid, none of that, the waiting, hoping, enjoyment of getting one)

Because the fear of your child not being normal is something you can not get away from until it's bron and is safe/healthy.

The game can be released and be absolute dross, but that does not matter you can play the old version to get over it.

Your trying to compare the gift of life to a video game....

 

[old.Tohtori]

I do understand you though, your probably not going to meet anyone to make you happy, so you protect yourself from harms way by convincing yourself you are happy to be alone for the rest of your life.

Just get to f*ck out troll.

But just to be polite and tell you why the f*ck you're wrong; A; you know nothing about me, but doesn't stop you from guessing and judgin by your own little worldview. B; BIG ONE HERE, GET BIG BOY GLASSES; i'm not comparing the two, they are examples, they set the question and the parameters of how widespread it is!

And yes, getting a kid is selfish, there's nothign non-selfish about it. You want a kid, you get a kid, you want to get your relationship to next level, you want you want.

Raising the kid has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[noblok]

Getting a kid is selfish, nothing more. You're getting a kid because you want to. It is a purely selfish act no matter how you turn it. You have to raise it, but that's your decicion. Like getting a dog.

That's not how it works. At least not for me and I doubt many people who have a kid think about it the way you describe it. It's hard for me to express what exactly it is in my mother tongue, let alone in English, but it's nothing like you described.

Having a kid is not just 'something you want'. Obviously you do want to have a kid, but it's a very different from wanting video game X. This may be hard to understand if you don't share said experience, but it's another experience altogether. It's not just a matter of quantity (i.e. I want the kid more than I want video game X), but it's a qualitative difference. This is why your example doesn't really hold up: wanting a video game really bad isn't the same as wanting a kid. It's a different want.

 

[Calaen]

You created another thread to produce above results, I don't know what you expect. I am both of the people in your examples, as are many others on this forum. They have children and play games. And not one of them will tell you it's the same, because it's not.

 

[old.Tohtori]

This is why your example doesn't really hold up: wanting a video game really bad isn't the same as wanting a kid. It's a different want.

That's the thing, if you didn't care for a kid, if you had no desire for one, you wouldn't feel that it's important.

A game you could feel passionate about, but if you never want a kid, you can't feel pasionate about it.

As such, do you think that this person wanting a kid and that person wanting a game are different in anything else then the object they desire?

If so, what is the reason for putting one persons life and dreams above the others?

And Calaen, you might as well stop with that "you did..." thing, you fail every time.

Hoping someone in this forum can take a look outside the examples, see them only a ssuch, and answer the question.

Here's a repost of it, just to clear it up;

If something is dear to someone, is waited for a long time, does it matter what that thing is, if the anticipation and desire are equal to individual persons?

 

[Calaen]

If so, what is the reason for putting one persons life and dreams above the others?

And Calaen, you might as well stop with that "you did..." thing, you fail every time.

Hoping someone in this forum can take a look outside the examples, see them only a ssuch, and answer the question...

I don't have to put my dreams above yours they are already there.

Have fun with deathrace 10k in 10 years time, make sure you shave your palms before release.

 

[russell]

Bah. Not 'interesting discussion' at all-Just wrong (on so many levels).

Take it you are feeling a little pissy this morn Toht and wanted to remind us all that you just have no idea what being human is about.

Were you abducted by aliens at some point, or are you indeed actually alien?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Bah. Not 'interesting discussion' at all-Just wrong (on so many levels).

Take it you are feeling a little pissy this morn Toht and wanted to remind us all that you just have no idea what being human is about.

Were you abducted by aliens at some point, or are you indeed actually alien?

Only thing that would make me "pissy" this morning is people taking shots like that.

Did i anywhere say that a kid is not important to those who want it?

 

[noblok]

As such, do you think that this person wanting a kid and that person wanting a game are different in anything else then the object they desire?

Yes, I do think they are different in something else than the object they desire. I don't desire a kid in the same way I desire a video game. I repeat: this isn't just a case of how badly I want the kid/video game. It's not that I feel more passionately about the kid. I don't even know if I feel more passionately about the kid. The two desires are so different that it's hard to even compare them.

I'm not saying it has nothing to do with the object, though. Just that in this case the object of desire also transforms the experience of that desire. Or rather: that having a child cannot be desired in the same way as acquiring a video game. In having a child there's always some concern for the child itself. You don't just want a child for your own sake, but also partly for the child's sake. I realise that this sounds odd as the child isn't even born yet, but well: some things just are a bit odd .

edit: It is possible to want a child for selfish reasons, but that would be wrong, in my opinion.


More to the original point:

If something is dear to someone, is waited for a long time, does it matter what that thing is, if the anticipation and desire are equal to individual persons?

I think it does matter as I think it's sensible to call some desires petty or vain. Obviously this is somewhat dangerous as you run the risk of imposing your own opinions of what's important and what's not, but I think some more or less objective values can be found. I think that some desires can reasonably be called vain or petty and thus not really that important, even though they may be very strong desires. (On the other hand: the strength of the desire isn't completely unimportant either. It has some importance, but I don't think it's the only and ultimate factor in judging the value/importance of a desire.)

 

[Jupitus]

Getting a kid is selfish, nothing more. You're getting a kid because you want to. It is a purely selfish act no matter how you turn it. You have to raise it, but that's your decicion. Like getting a dog. "Ooh cute puppy i wantrs it!" selfish, but effects may be seen as non.

Is this missing an 'in my opinion' qualifier Toht? If so, that may be why people here are pretty much all thinking 'you stupid asshole' right now. If not then you stupid asshole.

 

[old.Tohtori]

More to the original point:

I think it does matter as I think it's sensible to call some desires petty or vain. Obviously this is somewhat dangerous as you run the risk of imposing your own opinions of what's important and what's not, but I think some more or less objective values can be found. I think that some desires can reasonably be called vain or petty and thus not really that important, even though they may be very strong desires. (On the other hand: the strength of the desire isn't completely unimportant either. It has some importance, but I don't think it's the only and ultimate factor in judging the value/importance of a desire.)

On your first part, interesting take on it; does the lasting effects change the value of the object?

I think they can effect the amount of desire, but not necessarily the value of your desire compared to others.

Second part; That's exactly what i was looking for, where do we draw the line on it though? Like you said, there's a risk of imposing ideas. Ofcourse someone wanting peas for dinner can't be as valuable as an education, but where can we draw the measuring tool for it when taking larger and larger itmes into play?

Is it social acceptance? Perhaps peer pressure?

Is this missing an 'in my opinion' qualifier Toht? If so, that may be why people here are pretty much all thinking 'you stupid asshole' right now. If not then you stupid asshole.

Ofcourse it's an opinion, personal desires, needs and wants can only be personal. And like i said, i never said kids aren't important to those who think they are.

 

[Thorwyn]

I`m not quite sure what you´re aiming at. If the essence of your statement is "happyness is happyness regardless where it comes from", then you´re right. But that´s not really a statement worth of a discussion.

I won´t go into the kids and selfishness part of the discussion, simply because the POV is completely absurd or too philosophical (depending on where you stand).

The one thing you seem to miss in my opinion is the fact that waiting for a kid comes with a while bunch of additional emotions, not just happyness. Wating for a game on the other hand comes with considerably less "side-emotions". Doesn´t change anything about the importance of the happyness factor, but certainly separates the two occasions from each other.

You can cancel a kid, you can also give it away if you don't want it.

If you get bored of a kid, you can give it away. Rather easily too.

If you lose a kid, it takes around a year to replace it.

Cold? Yes, but true.

Nope, not cold. You´re simply cynical here.
I don´t think I need to explain that you can´t *replace* a lost child. You know that you can´t.

 

[kiliarien]

If something is dear to someone, is waited for a long time, does it matter what that thing is, if the anticipation and desire are equal to individual persons?

You asked whether they were equally important.

Clearly most have said no. Surely the subjective notion of importance cannot be objectified?? You might (not that I'm saying you do) consider the anticipation of a game more important than the idea of having a child; just as I'm sure there's some nutcase out there who was more ecstatic when their football team was in the final of some major competition than when they were waiting for their first, second or whatever child.

You answered your question with the first post. It's individual to each person.

I wouldn't flatter yourself with the title of this thread Toht - it's not that interesting. :lol:

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Had this with a person(like ti matters who );

First;

Couple A waits for a kid for 2 years. Tries and tries, no go, and finally that one day they find out that she's pregnant. Kid is in the way and all the expectations, all the hopes and dreams are coming true.

Marvelous right?

Second;

A gamer is a huge fan of Megakill 2000. Greatest shooter ever. Can't get enough. He hears that in two years, "Megakill 3000 - Extra kill!" is coming out. He waits and waits, speculates, writes on forums, draws fan arts, and finally that day comes and he gets the game.

Good times.

Now, the question here is; aren't these two equally important?

Forget about what the kid can do, species lastivity etc.

If something is dear to someone, is waited for a long time, does it matter what that thing is, if the anticipation and desire are equal to individual persons?

Another bonkers topic from Teh Seel

Primarily... important to who? The gamer, the town, us as a species? The question is vague.

No need to red-line over this really.

To us as a society, the game is not as important. Unless he is emotionally retarded, the gamer would be unlikely to regard the impending game to be as important.

Certain emotions will be similar - excitement, etc.

The answer is very easy to get to and not really that interesting as a discussion. The comparisons are no comparison (entertainment vs procreation) and very artificial.

In my opinion, of course

 

[old.Tohtori]

You answered your question with the first post. It's individual to each person.

I wouldn't flatter yourself with the title of this thread - it's not that interesting. :lol:

Had an interesting discussion, missing from the topic but in the first post

Intersting = subjective

FYI; i aksed if it's equally important regarding individual needs, not if a kid is more important then a game in general.

I know that the importance is subjective to the person, to each their own and all that, but the question was if one could somehow scale and prioritize something that is a personal opinion?

If you think that everyones personal choice of life and opinions are equally important, seeing as they are as much human, wouldn't it make saying "geek waiting for game" rather imposing?

The answer is very easy to get to and not really that interesting as a discussion. The comparisons are no comparison (entertainment vs procreation) and very artificial.

That's only the example, people are concentrating on it too much.

If i had asked;

Which is more important, waiting for a game or waiting for a car?

or

Can we say going ot the gym is mroe important then playing games?

It wouldn't be this kind of discussion.

The reason i chose the child example is for the scale, i had to include every expectation and waiting scenario so one could answer if the wait is a wait and the subject of the wait is simply individual.

I was hoping people would take it as simply an example and NOT a comparison.

 

[Zenith.UK]

I started out not wanting kids. Somehow I ended up with 3.
None of them were "planned" in the traditional sense, but they're all wanted and loved. The anticipation before each child was a big build-up.

I was waiting more than a year to go see Avatar. On the premiere night, I was getting all excited about seeing something I'd been waiting to see. I'd bought my tickets a month before, I had my glasses, I had my daughter with me... ready to go.
I saw the film, thoroughly enjoyed it and was left wanting to see it again.

Right now I'm debating whether to go with a HTC HD2, Google Nexus1 or some other model of mobile phone. I know that when the day comes to order it I will be a little bag of excitement and literally sat chewing my nails waiting for it to be delivered.

There's no comparison IMO. There was WAY more anticipation before each child than before the film or the mobile. In my personal case, the film and the phone are more like candy sweets... nice and tasty but not satisfying in the longterm. Having the child is more like a good meal that satisfies and stops you being hungry for a longer time.

 

[fl3a]

i think the difference why the expectations cant be compared comes from the fact how deeply rooted in our minds is the 'kids are cute (as toht puts it)' mindset. in addition to 'kids are cute' i think it also includes all the expectations and commitments inclusive with having a baby. those ideas have been passed along both verbally (you see someone getting ready to have a baby and you think thats the right thing to do) and genetically (humanity must continue, if having babies didnt feel good why even do it). and the expectation of something else, something you might care a huge amount amount, be it a computer game, a great meal or even the solar eclipse, is a want/expectation coming from another part of your psyche. in more extreme cases, as the one discussed here imo, it might even be derivative of the want for kids, or a modified version of the want for kids for someone, who in essence has replaced the norm of wanting to have offspring with the extremity of wanting something completely difference.

i think that whats missing from the OP is the clarification if the people in the examples are 'normal' or 'different' people. society and most of its members would call the first example normal, and the second example twisted and cold if he said 'the game is as important to me as a kid to you, gtfo'. but a considerable amount of people throughout history have been in the second group, and while they might not have cared about computer games, they have still replaced the basic want of/caring about offspring with something different. those are the scientists, philosophers, inventors etc who concentrated on their work and didnt give a shit if they had kids, or if their kids turned out retarded.

to clarify and sum up: no, i dont think that the amount of happiness and expectation can be compared if they are both the same type of people (societys norm), but in some cases they can be the same feeling applied to different things.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Nice summary fl3a and yes agreed, it should've(evidently) been clearer in the OP that these examples are just examples and that they are of regular people wanting different things.

Assumed that people wouldn't think the one wanting a game would be "different".

 

[Fast]

I would swap one of my kids for Daoc2.

 

[soze]

Impossible to answer its completely personal. I have been more excited about games of Football than a lot of things including being engaged.

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

<snip>
Forget about what the kid can do, species lastivity etc.
<snip>

Here's where you're going wrong. In any comparison, you cannot simply remove part of the equation to suit your outcome. Here, the "inexchangable unique kid" part is an integral part of the problem. You simply cannot compare a game that gets old after 3 months of playing to something that'll last a lifetime, with all responsibilities etc.

The weight of the object in question is very much connected to the anticipation and emotions connected to it.

Let's for instance compare it to something that's atleast somewhat in thesame ballpark as the game.
Say you're buying a house or a game. Both have 2 years waiting time, but the game represents a few months of joy for the price of €40.- and the house represents safety, comfort, investment and joy for the price of €230 000.-
You could sell both in an instant if you don't actually like it, and you have no responsibilities to either since they're both inanimate objects, yet the home represents so much more than the game, and therefor the anticipation towards owning it is much higher.

 

[Bugz]

Speaking as an economist here I think Toht has a point. Each individual has a utility function for certain things. It just may be that the nerds' utility fuction for gaming produces the same level of utility as the man and woman having a baby.

However, utility as a base value & feelings, emotions etc. are hard to correlate towards one another. If I have a utility of 500 from winning the lottery & a utility of 500 from having a baby - I can't compare the emotional aspects of the two neatly, just the utility.

Toht speaks of 'anticipation and desire.' Again - a value we can somewhat formulate through some economic formulas. Again it's a numerical value - we can cross-compare but we can't look into the factors and then cross-compare those in such a neat way.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - it depends how you approach the subject. Are we comparing 'end values' or are we comparing each little variable against a variable in the other decision.

Just another stance on it.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Here's where you're going wrong. In any comparison, you cannot simply remove part of the equation to suit your outcome. Here, the "inexchangable unique kid" part is an integral part of the problem. You simply cannot compare a game that gets old after 3 months of playing to something that'll last a lifetime, with all responsibilities etc.

The weight of the object in question is very much connected to the anticipation and emotions connected to it.

I can't be going wrong with it as it's not part of the equation

Let me explain;

The whole initial post was about the anticipation, waiting and the pre-arrival state.

That's why i asked to remove the after effect, such as raising a kid etc.

In such case, if the emotional effect on a person is the same regarding a game, or a baby, aren't they equally valid as personal goals and as such, excempt from unwarranted judgement? Personal opinions fo what is valid is ofcourse a factor as we have personal taste, but talking about a census judgement.

Bugz; Good take on it, and i can answer that the end result for me in this instance was the recieving of item X.

Desire, build-up, gain. If those are on equal ground(seeing as personal taste varies on each person), i dare say that they are equally valid in a grand scheme of things.