Infil vs SB

[Gesta]

reading tests on one subject doesn't make you a master of the entire deal with assassin mechanics asp, theres a lot more to it

What???? You mean I have to read more posts informing me how should I spec and what weapons I should choose and how I should be playing my stealther?

I just thank experienced people like smile... for pointing out other peoples data so I know where I am.

It's about this time I like to turn to Jesus and thank him for forums

 

[Lethul]

hahaha, you are so funny you honestly think im going to stand still near the only climbpoint in a keep at level 40?

you stod still at lvl 20!

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

hahaha, you are so funny you honestly think im going to stand still near the only climbpoint in a keep at level 40? i don't think so in reality its hard to get PA off, its something you can't learn by reading tests, only by experience

also, i didnt put a single guard down, i know Wyrd didn't do any tests on it, but you can trust me on this: you cant put more than 1 guard of the same type on the same wallpiece of a keep. most of the guards come with the keep itself the nightshade there was a bought guard, can only make one of them every ~30 (?) min

Oh i know about the guards - you just go round putting them on different keep pieces and set the NS to attack anyone. But that wall had 2 elds, 1 druid and I made around 30 gold at the keep base outside from killing bloody NS guards. And some git had set one of the elds to mez.

Don't even remember your ments name - but next time....

(oh go on - stand still more! Lots of other hibbie casters do )

 

[Flimgoblin]

with lower spec your growth rate will also be lower, i think you are kinda forgetting that. overtime dual shadows (0.8 gr at 50 spec) will do more overtime damage than garrote/achilles (0.75/1.03 at 44 spec) considering achilles will get evaded sometimes

next to the offhand hits. i remember from the calculations i did that a 1% increase in dw resulted in a direct 1% increase in damage. this is caused by the extra damage and haste effect (that effect is a bit less now, because weaponspeeds of legendaries are closer to each other than pre-toa crafted weapons). then again the procs now are better, and increased chance to proc debuff is very nice

Actual DW = 25+(DW skill * .68)

((Growth Rate * Weapon Spec) * Effective Speed) / Unstyled Damage Cap

Effective Speed = SPD * ( 1 - ( Quickness - 60 ) / 500) ) * ( 1 - Haste%)

feel free to calculate away. reading tests on one subject doesn't make you a master of the entire deal with assassin mechanics asp, theres a lot more to it

did you even know how the dw haste effect works?

Try reading a bit closer, think you musta skimmed my post there.

I pointed out the specs in the comment, and said "A lot of things that'd affect which is better there" one of which is the difference in spec on the style damage, and the other thing is how often you're missing.

By the formula above (assuming the middle one is damage) changing from 44 spec to 50 spec gives a comparative 50/44= 14% increase in styled damage (and is equivalent using a 0.91 growth rate with 44 spec)
If we say a 25% miss rate (miss/evade/whatever) then the expected growth rate of the DW spec (adjusted for spec) is 0.91*0.75= 0.68

Over 2 attacks the expected damage is:
(0.75*0.75+0.75*0.25*0.75+0.75*0.75*1.03)/2 = 1.2825/2=0.64
(first hit) (second hit after miss) (second hit after first hit)

So with a 25% miss rate and a 44 spec CS the frontal 50 DW style is better.
If you had 50 CS (e.g. if the infil specs 50 CS or you drop some utility elsewhere), you'd have 0.64 vs 0.6 and the CS styles would do more damage over time.

a 0% miss rate gives the (spec modified) Dual shadows a 0.91 expected, and the 44 CS a 0.89 expected. So even if you do land all your hits a 50 spec dual shadows spamming is better than a 44 spec chain... just....

One question: what effect does strafing around have on the miss rate? how often do you miss a Dual Shadows and land the backup anytime? any experienced mercfiltrators care to comment?

It's not a proper any time - position does matter, lag does matter. How often do you fluff up a frontal positional? If it's not very often then you can probably discount it - if it's every 3rd style then that expected growth rate is gonna plunge.

P.S. I have a 50 merc - I remember testing that the dw haste effect happens on mercs as well as zerkers back when we were considered ubergimps and telling people that slow offhand, fast mainhand = very bad

note also that I said a 8.5% chance to doublewield - not an 8.5% increase in damage:

with a 4.1 speed mainhand 3.2 speed offhand then on average your speed when styling with 29+16 dual compared to 50+16 dual.

Using your formula from above (this the latest one? been millions passed around over the years) the 29 dual gets 25+45*0.68=56% the 66 dual gets
70% to dual wield.

single hand swing speed: 4.1, double swing speed: 3.55
average swing speeds:
29+16 dual: 4.1*0.44+3.55*0.56 = 3.79
50+16 dual: 4.1*0.3+3.55*0.7=3.71
a massive 2% increase in swing speed.
(the extra offhand damage increase is probably far more significant here)

Other things to note:
for that 0.2 growth rate boost (and offhand damage increase) the infil does get a 7 point bleed but they don't have any snares on their enemy other than the poison, so they can flee if they resist or purge, they have no easy stun style and they have no DDs. Could well be right that a 50 DW infil has the highest damage output when fighting face on but by the styles it's really not by all that much (a 20% relic bonus however...)


ps. good discussion this

 

[Aussie]

do you actually think someone is gonna read that Flim

 

[Flimgoblin]

do you actually think someone is gonna read that Flim

nah I'm hoping someone quotes it and goes "hurhur infils pwn!! dood!" thus bringing peace and light to the world.

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

do you actually think someone is gonna read that Flim

I did.

 

[Vodkafairy]

well say the infil has 10% toa haste, 250 qui and using legendaries

3.9 spd weapon unstyled cap is 220
3.3 spd weapon unstyled cap is 183

effective mainhand swingspeed is 2.1762

this makes the stylecap for dual shadows (50+15 spec) - 333 (113 style damage)
this makes the stylecap for garrote (44+15 spec)- 316 (96 style damage)
this makes the stylecap for achilles heel (44+15 spec)- 352 (132 style damage)

garrote/achilles chain is 334 damage average

values above do not include toa style or dmg bonus

---

im not sure if the unstyled values are correct since the weapons might not have been 100% qual, but it sort of proves the point even without offhand hits dw spec > cs spec, considering you wont always land achilles

offhand damage will add ~10% to your total damage (when comparing CS to DW spec), might not seem like a lot, but you know how much 20% relic damage has done for infils.. to give a nice example

---

not in the mood to calculate the difference between infils and ns (spec af vs haste), but spec af does make a bigger impact, reducing all crits from the ns' side also. sb's have lower styledamage because of LA mechanics -and- spec AF, making infil values a lot higher most of the time, even tho sb's always have offhand hits, but they are easy to forget ;p

 

[Appollo]

Have you tried Wyrd77?;
31 Thrust
44 DW
50 CS
30 Stealth
30 Env

Using CS-Styles only.

Ask yourself, is it really worth to burn 779 points just to get dragonfang? With Wyrd77 your dps will raise and your pa will rip through my flesh like it was butter

fo im not talking 2 you anymore, but if i was, id say gimme a respec stone and ill try it!.

 

[Appollo]

well say the infil has 10% toa haste, 250 qui and using legendaries

3.9 spd weapon unstyled cap is 220
3.3 spd weapon unstyled cap is 183

effective mainhand swingspeed is 2.1762

this makes the stylecap for dual shadows (50+15 spec) - 333 (113 style damage)
this makes the stylecap for garrote (44+15 spec)- 316 (96 style damage)
this makes the stylecap for achilles heel (44+15 spec)- 352 (132 style damage)

garrote/achilles chain is 334 damage average

values above do not include toa style or dmg bonus

---

im not sure if the unstyled values are correct since the weapons might not have been 100% qual, but it sort of proves the point even without offhand hits dw spec > cs spec, considering you wont always land achilles

offhand damage will add ~10% to your total damage (when comparing CS to DW spec), might not seem like a lot, but you know how much 20% relic damage has done for infils.. to give a nice example

---

not in the mood to calculate the difference between infils and ns (spec af vs haste), but spec af does make a bigger impact, reducing all crits from the ns' side also. sb's have lower styledamage because of LA mechanics -and- spec AF, making infil values a lot higher most of the time, even tho sb's always have offhand hits, but they are easy to forget ;p

You need a blow job m8!

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

You need a blow job m8!

Is that an observation or an offer?

 

[Appollo]

Is that an observation or an offer?

Dont knock it till u tried it m8!

 

[Gesta]

Dont knock it till u tried it m8!

are you a giver or a taker and do you do reacharounds?

 

[Appollo]

are you a giver or a taker and do you do reacharounds?

Not with Northerner's kthx.

 

[Vodkafairy]

ooohhh a bj from elajt..

 

[ztyx]

and again


if he was sitting(im pretty damn fucking sure of this) then the "You perform your Asshat perfectly(+xxx) would have been (+xxxx)
same thing if he had been af-debuffed

Can't remember I was sitting and being hit a single time yesterday. Was hit for top 471 on dmg. Thought for sure all those 350+ hits was with a crit. This is just insane. I use AF charge 99% of the time and have +50AF on my template and 100% armour 100% con.