Infil vs SB

[Ketinna]

Are healers and clerics equal? no.

Are Armsmen and Warrior equal? No

Are wizards and runemasters equal? No

Are infils and SBs equal? They are comparable, and far more closely matched than any other class grouping. Are they identical? No - but its realms, not classes that are balanced. And the difference between NS>infil>Sb is measured in milimetres not miles (which more than be said of the other 3 examples....)

to bad only inf gets more points than SB / NS,

but clerics gets as much as speccpoints as healer

RM gets just as many as wizards

so to bad there little rr4 inf, wrong again

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

as i said, sb's in the right hands with right equip/ra's > all

he means proper amount high rr of SB's is dangerous for a rr4- infil duo, so basically he means that if SB's should do what albs has done since release.... if u cant get fair fights due to class imbalance you should outnumber the enemy so hard in every encounter that it seems like we are teh wicked assassins

seriously, a high rr SB is dangerous, but compared to an infil at same rr provided both have the same nice items the infil outdamage SB on any target.
assassins are about the most identical classes in all the three realms so why the hell should it be so dam hard for anyone to see that SB is by far the weakest?
and it really beats me why mythic finds it so hard to balance assassins better also ^^

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

And did you also know that by relying on a single stat SBs can overcap in a temp far more easily, and boost that stat significantly through a single RA purchase thus giving them more damage?

it doesent matter that we can have +25 str cap when the debuff removes that effect and lots more, dont drag potions and charges into the discussion, if so mention that infils can get a pretty decent haste the same way.
its the class imbalance thats the main problem, the accessories are something we all accept as Clerics, Druids and Shaman's get different bonuses... shammy being the best PvE and lack one "rvr" buff for soloers compared to the others.

no theories, whatever they are can prove something better than ingame experiense, you demand proof that we are weaker than infils etc. but your theories to prove us wrong or quotes dont prove anything more than "you read far too many forums and trust them blindly" imo.

and one other thing, it might be that the str/con debuff isnt the real problem as slash infils like Forb wipe the floor with most SB's even when both are debuffed... so the spec pts or something else has to be the biggest problem as most SB's need to crit on every hit to be anywhere near the regular infils damage wise.
DW/CD main hand hits harder than LA main hand and DW/CD offhand hits harder than LA offhand and if you consider that even tho if LA offhand swings every round doesent mean it hits every round... offhand has a missrate making it hit just as much to maybe make up for hitting weaker than DW/CD offhand but it aint something ive tested, but is also a reason that reaction styles are easier to get off on LA users as offhand gets evaded, blocked and parried more often than DW/CD offhand.
if any assassin should have 2.5 spec pts per level it should be SB as we are the only class that lose dps on both hands on low dual wielding specs and need to lower assassin unique lines in order to make up for it.

Berserker was supposed to be the meanest melee dmg dealer in the game and was so until LA nerf, SB's was supposed to hit harder than our counterparts wich we did at the time before the nerf, LA nerf made SB the weakest assassin and made berserkers a dependable dmg dealer but nothing out of the ordinary as Mercs and BM's are just as good if not better.
i dont care if they called LA bugged or whatever, according to the booklet that came with the game it was working as intended and that's not the case now as SB hits weakest of the three assassins and zerker is only maybe #3 or #4 melee dmg dealer.

ps.
and one other thing, it doesent prove anything as camlann and RvR servers cant be compared etc. but my lvl26 infil outdamage any orange NS/SB ive met so far and even a few red ones being specced 20Thrust 21CS 12enven 20stealth 15DW.

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

Oh? so how experienced a player do you have to be to understand mathematics and mechanics? or how experienced a view would you like? How about the guy who did a lot of the work on how styles and growth rates work? Or how LA mechanics function? You know - the one whos just been appointed zerker Tl and blown virtually all of the misconceived whiny crap that SBs have been posting for 10 patches out of the water?

RPs do not equal intelligence. They do not equal understanding of mechanics. They do not make you right. They do possibly make you a sad individual for spending too much time in an imaginary world were your self importance is determined by a number on a screen.

he probably means that inexperiensed assassin players like you manage to lose vs. opponents you should easily beat, and that may be why you defend infils so hard in this discussion.
give Apollo a toa opted rr4 infil and a spec he decides and he will wipe the floor with rr8 SB's in many fights.
Give Salamurhaaja Cleric buffs and dex based weapons on his little kobold and i assure you that you wouldnt "smilewhenyoureleasedallthetime"
we just want to be able to compete on equal grounds as we pay the same money as you do and basically picked the same class but with a different name.

ive played SB since release and believe me, i've noticed HUGE difference when it comes to infil opponents.
Infil has grown stronger and stronger while SB has gone in the opposite direction, NS's ive really got no clue about as i havent really fought so many of them until lately.

 

[Cracked]

as i said, sb's in the right hands with right equip/ra's > all

Now give that guy a Infiltrator and see a god in action.

I will post a few screenys i did last night just to show you how balanced it really is.

 

[rvn]

no not all classes are equal, i can agree that healers are supperior to clerics and druids for example, and that savages before toa were above the other 3 light tanks, however, just becase i play that class or have played (yes i played zerk when it was pre nerf) but i never ever said it was not overpowerd.

the post you made about clerics not being equal to healers etc, you basicly agreed on that infs > sb's as you wouldn't have brought up other class differances.

however the impact on a class being better than another is alot bigger when it is 1on1 and not 8vs8, because alb has other classes (especially now in nf), that make up for cleric low "util".

 

[Appollo]

Must be me then, everytime i meet Jox i might aswell sit, same used to be for salamurhakekeke. All it takes is for the SB to have arrogance up and im 50/50 fucked. Fighting Indriid the other night was harsh, but then he has 23xx hp's and used arrogance.

The question that bugs me the most is:

Why should stealthers be balanced?

 

[Appollo]

Well no offence Elajt, you are by far the hardest Inf out there, pre NF or post NF.

You usually are quite non biased but now you are just talking bollocks.

Im saying it from my side, thats different from how most alb stealthers would see it.

 

[Appollo]

Oh and SB's like Creep spamming Garrote and nothing else dont do you SB's any favours.

Ty.

 

[Whisperess]

Sir, may I say that you are total smeee...
smeee...
smeee...
Oh forget it Sir.

<Lie mode on>

Sir, you are totally correct. How I haven't seen it before. Now it makes perfect sense.

Kryten > all.

 

[Runolas]

Oh and SB's like Creep spamming Garrote and nothing else dont do you SB's any favours.

Ty.

Isn't Creep sold?

 

[AtomicBattleHamster]

i Couldnt say it better myself about the young stupid easy mode part, and if you dont think that is true well then i geuss youre one of them, but correct me if im wrong...

and if "older" means you want a challenge from the game, then im geuss im older with the rest of the people who enjoy game but taking on challenges and then might in the end "win"

and one more thing, when you were younger didnt you cheat on warcraft, or quake singleplayer when it was to hard? i did, and i enjoyed it anyway. didnt really think about it might be more fun if i struggle for something and get it or if i just get it.

From my point of view, in daoc, infiltraitors, they have it more easy with LA mechanics, 2 kind of dmg from weapons, more kind of artifacts because of it. more specc points, and you could therefore say they have alot of diffrent specc possiblity, but they accually have so many specc points they can specc for it all, they dont even have to sacrifices anything. they also get the ability to choose 100% WS lose from SB poison or 50% WS lose, where SB only can choose 100%. so when you play a class that has the upperhand, im having it a hard time believing they do it because of the challenge especielly when they seems to like teaming up, not that all the Stealthers dont at times but inf just as the rest team up sometimes, even though they are overpowered.

thats why it seems to me that they arent really that mature, they dont understand that they are overpowered, or they just want easy mode.

Im still at the part of the road where you should correct me if im wrong..

It's amusing that your post supports 90% of what I've said in my quoted post, only to still try and bait me into some form of argument by suggesting or hinting at what I failed to mention.

I really don't have the time, nor inclination to correct you on what I mean, you have the basic grasp of it and the other parts you seem to want to discuss isn't based on fact, only your opinion and we both know that it's going to probably differ....opinions tend to do that.......

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

to bad only inf gets more points than SB / NS,

but clerics gets as much as speccpoints as healer

RM gets just as many as wizards

so to bad there little rr4 inf, wrong again

Except the spec points are balanced and have no significant impact. Don't forget your 150hps>Saracan there.

Really - all this whine about 2.5 blah blah is pure idiocy - you have TLs telling you its not a problem and I guess they have the ear of the devs a lot more than you.

A suggestion. You could try:

1. Reading the latest tests and trying it out (as a lot of your high rr SBs have done - maybe thats a clue for you)

2. Constantly whining for 10 patches and being put on perma /ignore by the development team.

Heres a clue - number 2 doesn't work.

 

[Runolas]

Must be me then, everytime i meet Jox i might aswell sit, same used to be for salamurhakekeke. All it takes is for the SB to have arrogance up and im 50/50 fucked. Fighting Indriid the other night was harsh, but then he has 23xx hp's and used arrogance.

The question that bugs me the most is:

Why should stealthers be balanced?

Arrogance is nice, but it's nothing that balance SB vs INf, cuz what is stopping you from using it too?

What did you feel when SB had overpowered LA - didn't you "vote" for more balance then. During that time I felt the dmgoutput from LA was justified cuz of Dragon Fang and the Str/Con debuff, but the problem was that Zerkers vs BM/Merc's was way to overpowered.

Imho - the 3 assassins and 3 archer classes should be different, but balanced. In a fg you can balance the weakness of one class with the strength of another, that is not possible in a 1 vs 1 situation.

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

no not all classes are equal, i can agree that healers are supperior to clerics and druids for example, and that savages before toa were above the other 3 light tanks, however, just becase i play that class or have played (yes i played zerk when it was pre nerf) but i never ever said it was not overpowerd.

the post you made about clerics not being equal to healers etc, you basicly agreed on that infs > sb's as you wouldn't have brought up other class differances.

however the impact on a class being better than another is alot bigger when it is 1on1 and not 8vs8, because alb has other classes (especially now in nf), that make up for cleric low "util".

OK in a nutshell my point is that no 2 classes in this game are equal, but the realms are more balanced now than they have ever been.

And when it comes to assassins they are the closest grouping in the game - no other class set is as close. There are differences, because they are different. But those differences are tiny. What makes them seem more extreme is that assassins tend to go 1v1 (or small nos v small nos), or they use their class specific abilities and get the drop on a vulnerable class.

Now take that tiny difference 1v1, add in equipment disparities, add in relics, add in experience and that tiny disparity seems huge. However its not the disparity that makes the difference. As I said before I rarely (very rarely) see a SB using heat weapons - yet i see NS and infils with them all the time. So automatically they're throwing away a 15% damage bonus for the battler/malice combo (although i've grown to hate malice - it procs like crazy). Yes thats anecdotal, but I've fought more SBs using energy weapons than heat - crazy, particularly if they're camping beno to docks run as botted infils are going to have energy resists up at that point.

genuine issues?

1. Lack of str/dex weapons - replace either sword/axe with a str/dex line. Hell even copy thrust over to Mid if they think its so great.

And ermmmm - thats it really. That covers every single genuine issue.

 

[Appollo]

Arrogance is nice, but it's nothing that balance SB vs INf, cuz what is stopping you from using it too?

What did you feel when SB had overpowered LA - didn't you "vote" for more balance then. During that time I felt the dmgoutput from LA was justified cuz of Dragon Fang and the Str/Con debuff, but the problem was that Zerkers vs BM/Merc's was way to overpowered.

Imho - the 3 assassins and 3 archer classes should be different, but balanced. In a fg you can balance the weakness of one class with the strength of another, that is not possible in a 1 vs 1 situation.

I never QQ'ed when LA was bugged, and never QQ'ed when DF "was adjusted".

 

[Runolas]

2. Constantly whining for 10 patches and being put on perma /ignore by the development team.

Heres a clue - number 2 doesn't work.

No shit Sherloc...

...why did LA get toned down.
...why did DF get nurfed to 5 sec.
...and the list just goes on and on.

I'll give you a clue - mainly from customer feedback you moron. Customer feedback often known under the name "whine". Most balancing in this game is done that way, so yes, in the end it helps to give constructive feedback atleast on VN and to Mythic directly.

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

No shit Sherloc...

...why did LA get toned down.
...why did DF get nurfed to 5 sec.
...and the list just goes on and on.

I'll give you a clue - mainly from customer feedback you moron. Customer feedback often known under the name "whine". Most balancing in this game is done that way, so yes, in the end it helps to give constructive feedback atleast on VN and to Mythic directly.

Wrong.

Customer feedback alerts someone of a potential issue - it does not determine the action or outcome.

LA was fixed because of tests and hard facts - Waterman is our hero. Had its damage been in line with CD/DW it could not have been proven to be an issue and would have been left alone.

SBs have whined about every other class since 1.62. The vnboards are full of it - they've whined about necros in rvr ffs! The worst performing rvr class in the game - oddly enough because there was no issue it was ignored.

So if you a genuine case - one that can be backed up. One that has tests and proof. One that does the maths, then you may get an answer. But the usual - WAAAAAAAAA an evul infil killed me = /ignore.

You think that whining gets changes? get real - all its got is 10 patches of being ignored. SBs might want to reconsider their strategy cos it ain't working.

 

[Runolas]

I never QQ'ed when LA was bugged, and never QQ'ed when DF "was adjusted".

I'm quite positive you did not like it and that is different from QQ. Those that like their class will contunie playing balanced or not. I play on what ever the odds are, but if I could get more balance, then yes I would have gone for it.

If you feel easymode is pleasing then I guess it does not matter. I can only speak for myself, but knocking you down twice after I got my ToA gear done means much more to me than a random RR2 Inf running unbuffed.

LA was not bugged it was just overpowered compared to DW/CD and got toned down - however adjusting assassins is much more delicate.

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

I'm quite positive you did not like it and that is different from QQ. Those that like their class will contunie playing balanced or not. I play on what ever the odds are, but if I could get more balance, then yes I would have gone for it.

If you feel easymode is pleasing then I guess it does not matter. I can only speak for myself, but knocking you down twice after I got my ToA gear done means much more to me than a random RR2 Inf running unbuffed.

LA was not bugged it was just overpowered compared to DW/CD and got toned down - however adjusting assassins is much more delicate.

Wrong again - Mythic admitted that it was a bug leading to double the growth rates that should have been there. Doublefrost was on something like 1.30 for an anytime style - no wonder zerkers and Sbs were breeding like flies. Ah well - at least those fotms have now become hunters and SMs, after a brief dallience with savages....

 

[Whisperess]

Wrong again - Mythic admitted that it was a bug leading to double the growth rates that should have been there. Doublefrost was on something like 1.30 for an anytime style - no wonder zerkers and Sbs were breeding like flies. Ah well - at least those fotms have now become hunters and SMs, after a brief dallience with savages....

It wasn't a bug, it was by design. Read the 1.50 patch notes (before you started playing, probably) and the 1.62 patch notes where they were toned down.

But alas, you'll still carry on, drawing incorrect conclusions, clinging on to hearsay and continue to live in denial. You did it as DontTouchPoopy (got you banned btw), and you'll continue with this login.

Pathetic.

 

[Appollo]

I can only speak for myself, but knocking you down twice after I got my ToA gear done means much more to me than a random RR2 Inf running unbuffed.

Pardon?

 

[Puppet]

Soo, 500 + 170 = 200+100 ?

Thread was about infils doing insanely much damage, fyi.

infil attacks me (on my ranger):

Result:

Infils rock with relics. So do rangers. And nightshades. And hunters... and shadowblades oh and scouts hurt too xD

Stop speccing like a gimp; play like a gimp in a gimp SC suite. You might or might not be on even terms; but I dont whine when the lvl 48 BD kills me with his 1 button spamming

(oh wait I do)

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

It wasn't a bug, it was by design. Read the 1.50 patch notes (before you started playing, probably) and the 1.62 patch notes where they were toned down.

But alas, you'll still carry on, drawing incorrect conclusions, clinging on to hearsay and continue to live in denial. You did it as DontTouchPoopy (got you banned btw), and you'll continue with this login.

Pathetic.

Nope - you're linking two separate instances. Nice case of selective quoting. Was an interview posted on vn with Mackay that explained the whole thing.

And the same hard core cadre of whiners will continue to whine - will never back it up, will never be able to.

(And sorry sonny - i was there at hte UK start. Were you?)

 

[Runolas]

Pardon?

What?

 

[Whisperess]

Nope - you're linking two separate instances. Nice case of selective quoting. Was an interview posted on vn with Mackay that explained the whole thing.

Mackey was just a liaison between the teamleads and Mythic. It wouldn't be the first time he didn't get things right.

(And sorry sonny - i was there at hte UK start. Were you?)

Since Beta. Oh and btw, it's inproper to use the noun "sonny" in your case.

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

Mackey was just a liaison between the teamleads and Mythic. It wouldn't be the first time he didn't get things right.


Since Beta. Oh and btw, it's inproper to use the noun "sonny" in your case.

Since beta? And still no clue....

So - mythic employee is wrong if it suits your opinion. Hmmm......

 

[Zeratuhl]

Since beta? And still no clue....

So - mythic employee is wrong if it suits your opinion. Hmmm......

ye, and they are like gods, totaly objective in every situation and never does any mistakes? riiiiiight mr. asskisser :kissit:

 

[Smilewhenyousaythat]

ye, and they are like gods, totaly objective in every situation and never does any mistakes? riiiiiight mr. asskisser :kissit:

Hmmm - who to believe. Random bitter ex-godmode troll, or mythic employee.

Tough call that....

 

[Appollo]

What?

I dont understand that staement you made.