IMPORTANT - changes in store

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RogueOne

Guest
Players competing from the same IP will not be a problem, so far as I'm aware. Once the IP's authorised, any connections from it should be fine.
 
S

Skyler

Guest
One other thing I thought of and I mentioned it in a post I made on the general forum just now.

P2P is going to decrease the size of the BWCSL by what, 80% ?

If thats true then clans shouldnt think about playing in the league in its current state and should think more about playing in a much smaller league with more variety of skills in each division.

I see no problem with paying £60 for an entire clan for 1 year (3 seasons roughly). That is £20 per season which is rather reasonable and is pretty much what people are expecting for a one off charge per clan per season isnt it ?

Thats all absolutely fine moneywise for the league in its current state, but after the p2p thing comes into it the league wont be as good therefore not worth paying as much money for. Then you enter the area of other leagues being better than it for free.

Currently the BWCSL is the best league in the country for CS imo, the BYCSL is barely run at all, let alone run well. No league has immaculate servers, BW's ones could be better but they have never been that bad for me. BWCSL currently knocks the pants off any other online league for CS, but after p2p I fear it wont do any such thing. :(

Oh well, I support the charge and would gladly do it, but my mind has been made for me, not everyone in my clan will pay for it, therefore its the end of BWCSL for me :/

Once again I am sure many people will be in the same situation as me, this is what will cause a problem I think...
 
R

RogueOne

Guest
Based on the feedback I've had so far, an 80% reduction in size sounds wildly pessimistic. Yes, it's unlikely that we'll be a 90 clan league next season, but we should still be a reasonable size. The most likely scheme for reducing the size will be to scale the teams per division back to 8 and maybe drop some of the "parallel" divisions.
 
A

andersschm

Guest
<<Currently the BWCSL is the best league in the country for CS imo, the BYCSL is barely run at all, let alone run well. No league has immaculate servers, BW's ones could be better but they have never been that bad for me. BWCSL currently knocks the pants off any other online league for CS, but after p2p I fear it wont do any such thing.>>

This is a concern - is probably worth hanging fire and seeing what clans sign up as you don't want to be stuck with 5X 1 year on Barrysworld if the leagues are seriously disrupted by this change.

Perhaps a survey (independent of BW) could be done to get a good picture of the opinions of the BWCSL player base. Say if the survey was sent to each clan leader.

Anybody else think this would be a valuable exercise? Afterall while the majority of people who post on here tend to be opposed to the idea its more likely that the people unhappy about the news would post - where the people not bothered by the news wouldn't.

I will do this survey if people would like to see it.. but I would appreciate any help.
 
O

old.ollyitus

Guest
I think such a survey is essential. We need clans to confirm they will still continue to play before others will sign up. . . If this isnt done all clans who are thinking of signing up will wait. . .If all clans simply "wait" none will sign up. . so the waiting ones will go elsewhere
 
C

Ch3tan

Guest
CS-B are in.


As to the point about BYCSL still being free. It really wont be for long, BY already charge 6.50 a month for use of their bookables and other features.

As for the comment about p2p being a bad move and a disaster based on the use of publics, BW's expectations for take up of p2p have been far exceeded so far.
 
A

andersschm

Guest
<<As to the point about BYCSL still being free. It really wont be for long, BY already charge 6.50 a month for use of their bookables and other features.>>

BYCSL isn't exactly free. You need one player to be paying the 6.50 charge mentioned above and then your clan can enter.

BW p2p is cheaper than BY p2p, but you only need the one clan member signed up to it for the clan to enter.
 
A

andersschm

Guest
I am looking to send out a survey this evening. I will be e-mailing each clan leader individually so as not to create a mailing list that can be abused.

Obviously going to take me a while - so please respond to the survey when you get it.. I'll try to keep it short and sweet :)
 
A

andersschm

Guest
50% surveys sent.

I realise the futility of my life as I am doing this on a Saturday night. lol
 
M

MYstIC G

Guest
I'm not planning on reading through 3 pages at this time of night, so apologies if this has already been suggested.

Why not just do a variation of the 5 players on a team need to subscribe. Via the existing BW clan system, give each created clan member a "is subscriber" DB field or whatever, then when the clan has hit X number (i.e. 5 for CS) they are eligable to enter into the league.

This works on the basis of a subscriber to BarrysWorld can enter the leagues. It circumvents the problems of people using other peoples logins, having to firewall the league servers (which gives the impression the league is dead) and clans not being able to use substitutes/having people unwilling to subscribe (it also won't limit the number of players a clan can have either).

This equates to a lowest total cost for a clan of £12 x 5 = £60 which is an already suggested value thats been knocked about.

Anyone who keeps going on about "will lose players, clans" and so on, if thats your opinion then fine you are entitled to it, however stop repeating the same point as discouraging others only harms everyones playing experience alongside BWs cashflow.

oh & andersschm could you please use the "Quote" button, as it would really make some of your posts that i did read easier to follow ;)
 
A

andersschm

Guest
<<oh & andersschm could you please use the "Quote" button, as it would really make some of your posts that i did read easier to follow >>

lol everyone says that ;)

I'm an old school internet user - we never used to have quote buttons :p
 
G

gremlin

Guest
I'm not overtly against the idea of paying for the league, however.. the option of a single charge for an entire clan should *really* be considered. I don't want to feel compelled to get a BW sub because they're desperate for more subscribers (ch3t, perhaps the subscriber numbers are better than they predicted, however it's still difficult to find a BW server with players on).

The league should also be prepared to offer value for money, prizes are all well and good, but how about having the action nation reports back? how about demos?

Come on Rogue1 matey, make me *want* to give BW my money, rather than feeling compelled to ;)
 
R

RogueOne

Guest
Sorry for the lack of updates over the last few days... I have been (and still am) really quite ill.

So far as I can see, the league *will* be worth paying for next season. We should have better servers, dedicated HLTV proxies for demos and *gasp* spectators, better prizes being distributed more widely and, of course, all the other usual great stuff :)

The ActionNation roundups have been missed, but unfortunately, they take up a *lot* of time (usually several hours for a full report, and as much as 8 hours for a big mid-season report. Ultimately, I give a lot of time and effort to the league already, but as an unpaid volunteer who also has "real" work to do, there's a limit to how much I can give.
 
A

andersschm

Guest
<<The ActionNation roundups >>

I tell you what - we'll give you all our web hosting, server rental and prize money for action nation roundups...

Seriously I think that roundups etc make a league much more interesting - puts a face on all the 3 letter acronyms you are competing against.

Keep sending the surveys in if you haven't already!
 
B

bsvarups

Guest
All leagues will eventually charge, and not to far into the future, Jolt already charge for their tourneys, BY gaming was setup to be p2p from the start and will be soon. Mark my words.
Hope that quote thing works.

Anyway. Jolt only charges £10 per league PER CLAN. Thats a lot lot less than £12/£24 per person who wishes to play. Say 50% of a clan has a Game Reward Card, thats an average payment per clan member of £18. Roughly 7 members per clan who will wish to play, thats £126 per clan. Over 12 times as much as Jolt want to charge. (Ok BW is per year, and Jolt only per league, but lets look at the short team).

Not many clans are going to pay over £100 to join a league. End of Story.
 
T

[TRD]Mr_Magenta

Guest
Well i have read all 3 pages ( beats working in the office :) ) and the fundamental problem 4 BW i believe is that at present alternative providers are offering free services. We can agrue to the cows come home that theirs is an inferior service or product but at present it is available and free. You either need to get ALL to charge at the same time ( not going to happen ) or perswade peeps that ure service is superior and worth paying for.

Personally speaking £12 a year or £1 a month with a reward card is not a lot BUT this is in the context of the above market situation.

As joint clan leader of TRD who have been going for 2 years we have 17 members at present and most pay towards running costs of website, clanport, annual LAN etc and it has not been easy getting the funds in the past . ... the fundamental problem is players do not want to pay for something they have todate had 4 free.

Sorry but this is a long way of saying if BW do go p2p and tie it to BW membership straight away I think they will lose a lot of clans from the league which may make situation worse. This has been shown on BW publics where what were v busy free servers are now empty and are no longer a marketing tool to help encourageg new members to sign up.

do not get me wrong i want BW to succeed they have done a great job promoting online gaming BUT i think u will have to
Show the promised benefits in advance of charging for say one season or a specific time .....a number of companies give product samples to "show" advantages and maybe this would work here .....


Our clan members may change their view if BW offered a "CLAN onestop shop" where we could get webhosting (curently with www.hostcolor.com £44 a year) and clan port (currently with www.4u-servers.net £50 per month) and get same benefits packaged. Before u say BW webhosting it is limited and bookable servers at present do not offer a clan their own perminemt server ..which is usually required..the BW servers are expensive in comparision. Have BW or can they not enter into partnership with a dedicated webhosting company and clan server provider to offer clans a packaged deal ???? or " one stop shop " and this goes back to the previous comments made where charging clans would be far better than individual members.

Also BY are run by a telecomms co and i presume do not have the costs passed on to other companies to worry about can BW not partner with them to get advantages of cheap and good servers and in turn provide the BW name and goodwill and league and structure as part of it ?


Sorry gone off track a little here but hope BW listen to everyones concerns here ...we all want the same the continuation of BW/BWCSL but if they go headfirst into p2p without very very careful implementation BW will just become the lesson other companies avoid when they go over to p2p in near future...as i am sure they will have 2 as "profit" and "business" has got to feature in online gaming soon or some of the well known providers will fold as loss leaders.................... :(
 
I

isuck

Guest
Originally posted by andersschm
<<oh & andersschm could you please use the "Quote" button, as it would really make some of your posts that i did read easier to follow >>

lol everyone says that ;)

I'm an old school internet user - we never used to have quote buttons :p

well, u have one now u bastard. :p
 
G

gremlin

Guest
Originally posted by bsvarups

Anyway. Jolt only charges £10 per league PER CLAN.
Indeed, this is why I doubt the BWCSL will be that successful next season - it's too expensive.

BTW, you guys know that GAME sell your home address onto spam mail companies when you sign up for a discount card right?
 
M

mraargh

Guest
LOL I've been suggesting things like the ideas Skyler and others have suggested to the admins in the private admin channel. I think the league is the way to achieve the prestige and the interest BW has been needing in CS. Ultimately it could actually be a way to take the gaming community by the horns and make it unthinkable for a self-respecting CS player NOT to have a BW subscription. Note for example that www.ukterrorist.com shadow the BWCSL with a great deal of interest already - they know it's the best league going and that the admins actually have, like, keyboards and mice and stuff. Many good players suffer quite badly in other leagues due to poor adminnning and frankly the standard of adminning in the BWCSL is high.

- so there is a strong basis there for positioning Barrysworld with a splendid advantage when this P2P movement takes place in the industry - as Ch3tan told us in an earlier post it is going to happen and soon. I think it would be wholly appropriate for Barrysworld to be out there with it's nose in front as this all takes off.

Some kind of model regarding clan subscriptions to the league would press home the 'pro' element one needs to emphasize in the image, to beat the competition. It is like saying: you can like gaming, that's fine, but Barrysworld is for the real thing, leagues, where honour is at stake, 'hardball' (as ukterrorist referred to the play of ClanOne). BW has the advantage of being the historical 'home' of UK CS traditionally and is the one service only lamers avoid. Surely no member of a top team would, once p2p is in place among all providers, feel it would be l337 to admit to having, say, a BY subscription for example.

What I think would be really silly would be to move straight into the next season with a full and full-price move to p2p in the league. There is a golden opportunity to entice players over to p2p directly through appealing to their status as a gamer.
 
M

Malfius

Guest
I feel a little offended about the post regarding the average age of the BW CS Player "14-18".... How many 14-18 do you know that can afford an ADSL connection and a decent PC ??
I'm 29 and have a nice job and a good PC so i can afford the conneciton, the PC and the BW subs. Lets face it £24 a year isn't a lot of money (£2 per month). And that doesnt just get you into the league, you have the Web-Hosting, Super Fast FTP, "Public" servers (which are some of the best in the UK) and all the other bits and bobs. So if all the 14-18's stop buying chocolate/cigs/cheap cider for a day each month, that would pay for the BW subs.

Thats my thought anyway.
 
C

Ch3tan

Guest
Yes, CS-B for instance have a wide range of ages in clan, the majority around 20-30.
 
S

Skyler

Guest
Originally posted by mraargh
LOL I've been suggesting things like the ideas Skyler and others have suggested to the admins in the private admin channel. I think the league is the way to achieve the prestige and the interest BW has been needing in CS. Ultimately it could actually be a way to take the gaming community by the horns and make it unthinkable for a self-respecting CS player NOT to have a BW subscription. Note for example that www.ukterrorist.com shadow the BWCSL with a great deal of interest already - they know it's the best league going and that the admins actually have, like, keyboards and mice and stuff. Many good players suffer quite badly in other leagues due to poor adminnning and frankly the standard of adminning in the BWCSL is high.

- so there is a strong basis there for positioning Barrysworld with a splendid advantage when this P2P movement takes place in the industry - as Ch3tan told us in an earlier post it is going to happen and soon. I think it would be wholly appropriate for Barrysworld to be out there with it's nose in front as this all takes off.

Some kind of model regarding clan subscriptions to the league would press home the 'pro' element one needs to emphasize in the image, to beat the competition. It is like saying: you can like gaming, that's fine, but Barrysworld is for the real thing, leagues, where honour is at stake, 'hardball' (as ukterrorist referred to the play of ClanOne). BW has the advantage of being the historical 'home' of UK CS traditionally and is the one service only lamers avoid. Surely no member of a top team would, once p2p is in place among all providers, feel it would be l337 to admit to having, say, a BY subscription for example.

What I think would be really silly would be to move straight into the next season with a full and full-price move to p2p in the league. There is a golden opportunity to entice players over to p2p directly through appealing to their status as a gamer.

Well said aargh :)

If BW cock this up they are dead in the water really. This is the only thing BW have that demolishes the competition completely. It has better public coverage than any other league and arguably more respect than any other. BW should recognise it and make use of it to entice people onto BW for good, instead of forcing people to buy memberships they dont currently want.

Also I'm pretty sure an awful lot of clans disband in under a year on average. So what is the point for clans buying 1 years sub when their clan may not exist after the next league. Per league charging for an entire clan introduces a lot of flexibility. If that charge came in and then BW gave the entire clan their own individual subscription account it would work in BW's favour. BW would get hundreds more potential players on the CS servers which would please current subscribers and potentially entice many many more. I cant see BW getting that many subscribers in almost one go doing anything else. That would be the best solution for BW I think. They have to do something to increase numbers and this would be the best oppertunity to do it. Think of all the mates every clan in the BWCSL has, they know a great amount I expect. Think if all the clans in the BWCSL p1mped to their mates how great BW subs is after getting in on it through the BWCSL, youd have your own free advertising system in place. Then BW subscriptions should grow on its own two feet through word of mouth. We could see a few servers full everynight if they did what I suggested. Thats a few lamer free servers full everynight, unlike BY/Jolt/whatever. Lets not also include the horrific performance of BY servers at the moment. BY seems to be the main place for 'pro' players to play atm, it seems like the perfect time to grab them all onto BW. Once they have one subscription I doubt they will get another to play on BY which they have recently experienced as being laggy shit full of lamers :)


BW have an excellent chance to make p2p much more of a sucess right now. I hope they take it, because it will be a great struggle otherwise I think.
 
K

-]K.M[-Ryo

Guest
Looks like BWCSL will fall apart, which is a shame, but if your gonna make people sign up to a service that they dont want to use 98% of what do you expect? My clan won't pay for access to empty public servers when we allready pay for a clanserver which is full up almost constantly. Stop jibbering on about what a great deal it is - it's simply a crap idea. See sense offer an option to those wo are not full bw members to joint the damn leagues for a one off fee.

Barrysworld have lost the respect of many gamers over the last few months. Don't lose even more. One more thing, your clanservers are slow and ludicrously overpriced. KM's server is £35 a month and we get pings comparable to the wondrous jolt servers.

If you want people to pay for something that something has to be worth it. At the moment what you offer is not.

The league is well run and all that, but why the hell would we pay for that if we can join another league for free? It's just bonkers!
 
O

old.ollyitus

Guest
too true. [DISS] rent a server which is far far faster than BW servers for £40 a month. Its a bit off topic though :D
 
G

gremlin

Guest
Originally posted by -]K.M[-Ryo
Stop jibbering on about what a great deal it is - it's simply a crap idea. See sense offer an option to those wo are not full bw members to joint the damn leagues for a one off fee.
Amen brother Ryo :D BW / BWCSL listen to what people are saying - we will gladly pay for a league that is well run (which i believe the BWCSL currently is) and offers value for money, however don't force us to go for a full sub we will probably never use outside clan matches anyway!
 
W

Wookles

Guest
There is no way on earth i could justifying to my members that every player who may participate in a BWCSL match has to pay £24. Some players may only play one match a season.. we have a squad of nearly 40 ppl who enjoy other leagues as well as bwcsl. Great ! you may think . "whats he moaning about ?".. well.. out of those 40.. only 5-8 will play in BWCSL, the rest enter clanbase, EnemyDown, Savage or whatever they get up to.

We have a communal "coffer" mainly for paying for server rental and occasionaly deposits on annual Paintball weekends etc. Am I willing to dip into this to pay for entry of 5 ppl into a league ?? Hell No !!! I'd be crucified !

We at SWANT really dont want to leave BWCSL, but i got a horrible feeling, the way things look like they are going we are going to have little choice. If there is a fair charge that is in proportion to the small fee's being levied by other leagues then fair enough, i see no problem with this, but the sums of cash being mentioned (£120/year for just FIVE players ????).. !!!

Ok that might be a worse case scenario, but cmon !!!.... Jolt are charging £10 a CLAN !!!

BW servers aint that bad, but they aint THAT great. Hate to tell BW this, but most ppl dont need to play on their pay to play "public" servers, most ppl in this league have their own .. and or friends to go to.

So.. we arent interested in the line ..."Its not just the league you are paying for". We dont want BW pay to play, if we did, we'd already have it would we not ? I resent having to pay for something I dont want.. and honestly, dont need so I can participate in something else.

I fully accept that upto now people have been running the league as non-profit and as a labour of love. And If I believed that the money was going to the organisers and not BW.. i'd be happier about it.

If BW dont recognise they are very likely about to destroy probably the most popular UK CS league, thru demanding what cannot be a huge amount of cash to them... well.. more fool them...

As a clan we will be watching for defenite news on the payent scheme, but more importantly what the sign-up rate is for the next season. I just hope BW get it right and give BWCSL a fair deal, and more importantly a bit of respect for what th league and its organisers have done for CS.


[SWANT]Wookie
 
W

Wookles

Guest
Originally posted by Ch3tan
Well in SWANTs case having 5 subs for the whole clan would be cheap, but which members would use these accounts for bookables, publics etc out of league time?

Maybe 5 subs.. Maybe 6..7.. 8.. maybe 3...

I've no idea who would be playing next season..

To be honest, i dont think any of us would want to use bookables, or publics.. or any other BW facilities. If we did.. we'd already have BW subscriptions.
 
R

RogueOne

Guest
Wookles: the point is that if you bought 5 accounts, *any* five players could use them. It wouldn't have to be the same five players each week. You'd only need 5 accounts since all of our games are played 5v5 and hence you'd only need 5 players logged in at any one point.

However, to repeat what has been said... the 5 players that log in for a match are *not* locked and do not have to be the same 5 each week.
 
G

gremlin

Guest
RogueOne, fair enough you will only have to buy 5 accounts for a BWCSL team, but that boils down £120 per clan per year. If BarrysWorld never went sub based in the first place, and the league just came out and said "right, next season it's £120 per clan to enter" you'd get laughed off the boards and you'd end up with a one division league.

Stop trying to gloss this over by saying "but hey! thats five bw subs!" - it's still a *lot* of money for a clan to pay.

I don't like Jolt any more than the next guy, but hey, compare £10/clan/season to £120/clan/season.
 
R

RogueOne

Guest
It's only £120 per year if your team don't have GAME reward cards. Most people have these nowadays and you can get them for £2 anyway. So, even if none of your team have Game reward cards right now, you can still enter for £70 per year. With 3 seasons per year, that works out as less than £25 per season, which isn't really too bad at all.
 

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