IMPORTANT - changes in store

[[-RaZoR-]]

Well said Olly, I cant see the point in making teams pay to play in the league. I think its stupid that you have to have an account to book servers now. But anyway, Olly made a good point about the perks, I mean, how many clans have 8 web sites?????? Thats just ridiculos. And I cant see any clan making full use of 24hours a week tbh.

But, Im with Olly in this all the way, took the words out of my mouth.

Tom

 

[andersschm]

I was looking at the other BW leagues and some of those leagues see themselves having a third option - seperation from BW.

How realistic an option is this? Obviously it would be a lot of work and initial cost but the clans involved might be more willing to pay if they didn't feel that they were just subsidsing the rest of Barrysworld.

 

[Ch3tan]

Originally posted by old.ollyitus
On what basis can anyone justify the initial plan of every player needing BW membership to play? Am I the only one who has worked out that with the current number of registered players using this system BW would make over £30000 per year from BWCSL. Can someone please justify how a league can cost this much to run, even allowing for a profit margin. No offence but it seems to me that Barrysworld are turning to the leagues to try and boost what is a failing subscription service.



Secondly most players would not want any of the BW membership perks. Access to BW public servers is a bonus, but there are hundreds of fast servers free to use in the UK. Other perks include:

- Up to eight websites per clan. Sure some players want their own site, but for most clans one will do.
- Over 24 hours of bookable server per week. Four hours would be sufficient for most clans, and for those who have their own server it would be unused.

Summing up the amount of money that you are asking for with this plan is ridiculous. In my view a product is being mis-sold by making players have BW membership to compete in BWCSL.


The second system of making five players have BW membership is also stupid (sorry but I am just being honest). As a CL I can see that it just won’t work. If five players pay then I would almost be obliged to pick those five every week, as it would be completely unfair to play people who haven’t paid instead those who have, and I think many players would leave clans for this reason. This would result in a lowering standard of play within the league.

The system is also hugely open to abuse. If I bought myself BW membership I could very simply go onto a BW server and take another BW members wonID, then register it for my clan, allowing a whole clan to enter for just £24 or £12. Building security checks into the registration would be able to eliminate most of this abuse but this would take a huge amount of time.



In my mind there is only one solution. Each clan pays a fixed amount per season (per year doesn’t make sense when the amount of time between each season seems to vary – meaning we don’t know what we are getting for our money). Obviously the amount would be open to discussion, but I don’t see any justification for charging more than £25 per season (£6750 per year for barrysworld).

There is no justification whatsoever for making BWCSL players have BW membership. Its an obvious way for BW to save a failing system, but we aint all stupid.

The decision to go behind p2p isnt soley down to BW, its the leagues own decision. The servers cannot cope with CS, let alone the added anti-cheat protection. The servers BW use for p2p can, they are simple far better.

Your point about getting another players wonid and registering it is simply stupid. BW have an authorisation system in place that uses your IP address and logon details to give you access to the servers, if the league went behind p2p that same system would have to be used in conjunction with the current wonid system.

I dont know how many clans will pay, I dont even know if every member of my clan will. But I do see it as inevitable, and so there is little point shouting about it. Either you pay for a better league, or go elsewhere.

 

[[TNN]Aardvark]

Originally posted by Ch3tan
BW have an authorisation system in place that uses your IP address and logon details to give you access to the servers

Erm, that can't be possible, theres far too many people using dynamic IPs for it to be enforced properly.

 

[old.ollyitus]

Originally posted by Ch3tan


The decision to go behind p2p isnt soley down to BW, its the leagues own decision. The servers cannot cope with CS, let alone the added anti-cheat protection. The servers BW use for p2p can, they are simple far better.

It is true that the servers are bad and I am not against paying for a better league. What I am against is linking BW membership with BWCSL. It isnt logical to charge individuals when it is the CLAN that is entering the league. It will break down the whole idea of a clan which is teamwork, as those who pay will obviously have to be picked by clan leaders above those who do not. If you sell something to a company you dont receive 5 payments from individuals in the company you receive 1 payment from the company. Why should this be any difference

Originally posted by Ch3tan


Your point about getting another players wonid and registering it is simply stupid. BW have an authorisation system in place that uses your IP address and logon details to give you access to the servers, if the league went behind p2p that same system would have to be used in conjunction with the current wonid system.

Think about it. . .

If only five members from each clan would be made to register they would not be able to use such an auth system, as some of the members would not be subscribers to BW therefore my idea isnt as stupid as it seems. If every member was made to subscribe I still believe it is too expensive

 

[RogueOne]

It's clear a lot of people, particularly Aardvark, have no idea how how the BW membership-login system works. You log into BW with your username and password and it lets your *current* IP through the firewall. So it doesn't matter if you have dynamic IP or if you share an account... so long as only one IP is logged in per account, it can be *any* IP that is logged in.

 

[Ivan.]

Originally posted by [TNN]Aardvark


Erm, that can't be possible, theres far too many people using dynamic IPs for it to be enforced properly.

You have to log into BarrysWorld which picks up your IP. If you're on dialup and disconnect you then need to log in again so it will pick up your new ip.

 

[old.ollyitus]

Still no one has answered the question as to why BW membership and BWCSL needs to be linked, and why clans cant pay instead of individuals.

 

[RogueOne]

Ollytus: because if Barrysworld are to survive and continue running leagues, they need to keep all of their divisions in the black.

 

[old.ollyitus]

so why cant we pay them as a clan? thats still going to get them money.

 

[RogueOne]

You can pay as a clan...

Simply have your members give their shares to whoever normally handles clan payments and have that person buy 5 accounts.

 

[[TNN]Aardvark]

Sorry R1, I kind of take it as given that a system such as this doesn't allow multiple connections form one login at once.

 

[-]K.M[-Ryo]

well i aint fussed, if it goes to pay per play , we'll join a different league

 

[Skyler]

The second system of making five players have BW membership is also stupid (sorry but I am just being honest). As a CL I can see that it just won’t work. If five players pay then I would almost be obliged to pick those five every week, as it would be completely unfair to play people who haven’t paid instead those who have, and I think many players would leave clans for this reason. This would result in a lowering standard of play within the league.

I didnt mean it that way.

I dont mean 5 players per clan paying for themselves only and making sure they play.

I mean dividing the cost of 5 subscriptions between the entire clan equally, so that everyone contributed and everyone can participate in the league.


My choice has been made for me it seems, a large majority of my clan wont pay so thats the end of BWCSL for me, regardless of wether I pay or not I wont be allowed to particpate. A lot of clans will make the same decision and the few that want to pay wont be able to without leaving the clan.


A collective charge for clans of say £25, is a popular suggestion but it is even less likely to happen than the 5 slot idea.

Also, clearly BW are desperate to get subscriber numbers/public player numbers up, so why dont they go with the 5 subscriber idea, give an entire clan access for the price of 5 subs. It will populate the servers (perhaps), and increase the chances of attracting future subscribers. At the moment there is no chance that people will be attracted to pay for access to empty servers.

You could either pay for empty servers, or go to BY/Jolt/UK2/anywhere else and play for free, against lots of people with more variety.

There is no stunning adminning at BW, so thats not a reason for people to pay.

The servers are no better than BY's really so again there is no need to pay when someone else offers it free.

What I am getting at here is, BW have no hope of attracting anyone unless they can proove what they offer is better. Currently they are offering fuck all in the way of public gaming, and they are asking for money.

Bad bad bad.

 

[[TNN]Aardvark]

Originally posted by RogueOne
You can pay as a clan...

Simply have your members give their shares to whoever normally handles clan payments and have that person buy 5 accounts.

Yeah, and thats just not value for money. We're paying for 5x webspace, email, bookable servers. Newsflash. If we want this, we PAY for this. If we want a league, we pay for a league. £125 per clan, even for 3 seasons in a year, is still a very large amount, MUCH more than any LAN event in the UK. I would wager the GNP of a small eastern european country that cash is going to ostensibly be used for 'server upkeep', and we see pissant prizes and far from outstanding server performance.

What you're asking us to do is commit to a payment scheme without giving us clear benefits. Tell us what we will GET for our money, that directly ties into WHY we are paying the money, ie the league.

I strongly believe not many clans will sign up to this idea, after all a clan server costs around £200-300 a year I believe, and no league, unless it is phenomenally good, is going to be worth half the price of something that you use on a daily basis, for very nearly the same purpose.

Sorry for all the negativity, and I don't know how much BW top brass are railroading the BWCSL peeps into this scheme, but it seems far too much like an attempt to cash in on what appears to be BWs sole remaining asset, its league structure.

 

[old.ollyitus]

Originally posted by [TNN]Aardvark

Yeah, and thats just not value for money. We're paying for 5x webspace, email, bookable servers.

lol. we all know that 24 hours of bookable servers can come in really useful. So does 100MB webspace split between five different accounts

 

[nak]

Originally posted by [TNN]Aardvark


Erm, that can't be possible, theres far too many people using dynamic IPs for it to be enforced properly.

Have you even looked at the BW auth system? I very much doubt it.

Not to mention BarryLogon (http://www.barrysworld.com/games/BarryLogon/), which sits in your system tray and will automatically update your ip when you connect to the net.

 

[Fest]

In my opinion £12 For someone to have access to Excellent servers the chance to win Loads of cool prizes and be able to get the latest downloads is a pritty cool thing

I do belive fileplanet charge for membership?

Yet with going to p2p it will also encourage other clans to join as you can win something in lower div's which would be good for the semi-pro clans who play for fun

I welcome p2p and think anyone who is too stingy to pay £12 for all what you will get is a bit sad

cant even get 4 pints for that!

(what could you do with 12 quid?)

 

[Ch3tan]

Most of my clan are subbed up, I have 4 players who have payed or already had. So CS-B will continue with BWCSL under p2p, even if we have to recruit another subscriber to make up numbers.

 

[old.Smittins]

lol well at least you will solve ur problem of too many clans applying - question is will u now have too little?

the standard of the league is sure to go down - dNC have said many times they compete merely as they can win it reasonably comfortably and get a free server in the process - why would they now pay 60 quid to enter, and get a server, when they have 3 free servers from elsewhere

 

[old.Smittins]

Originally posted by Fest

I welcome p2p and think anyone who is too stingy to pay £12 for all what you will get is a bit sad

thats a completely idiotic statement

you have no idea of the monetary state of others who wish to compete in the league - 12 quid for u might not be much but ur in no position to talk for everyone

most cs players have broadband (30+ a month) as well as playing up to and beyond 1000 nicker for a decent pc and 30 quid for HL

whats wrong with people not wanting to play in a league where ur team must pay at least 60 quid to compete, when u could play in a different league with better servers such as BYCSL for nothing

 

[Ch3tan]

All leagues will eventually charge, and not to far into the future, Jolt already charge for their tourneys, BY gaming was setup to be p2p from the start and will be soon. Mark my words.

 

[old.Smittins]

jolt charge 10 pounds a team not 12 quid a player...

 

[Ch3tan]

Its not an idividual charge for the league though, its the league moving behind p2p.

 

[aer-s0]

skylers idea is well thought out, and i think sum suitable time shud be taken to look into it

60 per clan aint much considering aerage clan size is 8-12 ppl
so if a clan need 5 slots for entry u can select 5 ppl to register for that clan ie. the five most online regulars {ur choice of course} and then split the overall cost between ur members

so £60 per clan per annum [one off fee]

5 ppl register up

and the 12 our however many all pay 5 pound[or the equivalent division of the 60 to the payee of the annual fee, now a fiver aint much over a year is it.

even for a pikey like ripper[bwcsl admin, lo ste u mupper]

so i think its gud idea in sum ways but decisions need to be made now so as ppl know wat to expect sooner rather than later.

it all cums down to clan friendship and how much u want a gud game of cs oh well hope to see sum plans in actino soon

 

[imposter]

My 2 Cents (for what they're worth)

In the last two seasons of BWCSL we (TDS) have experienced admin decisions in game and out that have adversly affected our performance and positions in both div3c and div2CO.

My opinion of the admin team and generally the way in which the league is run has deteriorated dramatically due to a number of factors including the farcical mid-season mercing rule change (ok I know that ones been done to death, i'll leave it).

We as a clan will definately not be paying to play in BWCSL. I personally am a subscriber to the BW service. I think its worth it just for the bookables. But I refuse to make other members of my clan pay to play in a league which has just simply removed all of the fun from a game which we genuinely enjoyed just a few short months ago.

I think we will be looking for another league where the atmosphere is slightly more relaxed. BWCSL seems to have disintegrated into no more than juvenile squabilings and poor descisions made by those on the biggest power trip of all time.

Barrysworld revolutionised Internet gaming all those years ago with its free servers and services which brought a community together and gave birth to a new era of online fun. And just as swiftly they are now proposing to cut out of the action, a good majority of people who made this thing popular.

Need proof......? Check the publics!

Take care BWCSL, wish you all the best for the future ;x

 

[andersschm]

Concerning European competition laws - isn't it illegal to use a dominant product to force the sale of unwanted other products?

Still who's actually going to say anything.

If Rogue1 insists on putting p2p on BWCSL I don't think I will be able to control [bsq]Hoggle from putting ham sandwiches in his sleeping bag at I14 !

 

[nak]

hmm.

Originally posted by old.Smittins


thats a completely idiotic statement

you have no idea of the monetary state of others who wish to compete in the league - 12 quid for u might not be much but ur in no position to talk for everyone

And YOU are in no position to talk for everyone. There are probably just as many people who can afford it as there are not.

most cs players have broadband (30+ a month) as well as playing up to and beyond 1000 nicker for a decent pc and 30 quid for HL

I'm sorry, but you can't assume that everyone is still paying off their hardware. Thats just as idiotic as what the other guy said.

Essentially (monthly), it should break down to this.

25-40 quid for your broadband, (obviously more if you have isdn, I pity the fool);
2 quid for your bw membership (or 1 if you have a GAME card).

Personally I think this has been blown WAY out of proportion. People are hung up on the fact that you have to pay for something that used to be free. Free is a relative word, it was free for us, but not for DBs/Ted et al who have paid out a HELL of a lot more money than 24 quid a year just to keep the service running.

whats wrong with people not wanting to play in a league where ur team must pay at least 60 quid to compete, when u could play in a different league with better servers such as BYCSL for nothing

Theres nothing wrong at all with it, however, I disagree that Blueyonder servers are better (not to say that they aren't good). Perhaps it's because you're using cable? Over the years we've been given good service, and a lot of competition, quite frankly that speaks volumes.

In all honesty, I think you should be ashamed of yourselves. It's quite blatant that you have NO respect whatsoever for BW and all the work they've done for the community over the years.

For me, Chetan makes the best point:

Its not an idividual charge for the league though, its the league moving behind p2p.

This isn't 24 (or 12) quid for a league, you get a hell of a lot more than that. Someone made a comment just after P2P had been introduced, something along the lines of "If theres even only one subscriber, thats a hell of a lot more money than BW's had in 4 years". That says it all.

You pay to use your TV, why the hell shouldn't you pay to get use of the servers, (which no doubt, DID cost thousands (note that it's PLURAL) of pounds, much more than the 'decent pc' you mentioned earlier.

In short, I'm sick of all this bs. BW is P2P, most other GSP's will do the same thing, but BarrysWorld got the ball rolling. I'm afraid you'll just have to deal with it.

And if not... theres always UK2.

[slightly off topic bits]
Perhaps if people have to make some sort of investment, we'll get less teams disbanding, and for sure, much less chance of dodgy types on publics and, god forbid, matches.

My opinion of the admin team and generally the way in which the league is run has deteriorated dramatically due to a number of factors including the farcical mid-season mercing rule change

I fail to see how stopping players from high ranking clans aliasing/mercing for other teams is facical. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's definitely NOT cricket, and as such, it's a good move.

 

[nak]

Originally posted by andersschm
Concerning European competition laws - isn't it illegal to use a dominant product to force the sale of unwanted other products?

They aren't forcing you to buy anything. If you want to compete in the league, you'll have to be a subscriber.

Should cut down the waiting lists somewhat.

 

[Tylers Burden]

gotta be said that we've enjoyed the past couple of seasons in bwcsl.

we are a div4 clan and play just for a laugh, we have no real interest in prizes, or even promotion - its just a group of guys sharing a common interest and having a laff.

although i would agree that the servers have been a bit laggy recently, and that the extra investment would be beneficial, i think the change over to p2p could be something that barrysworld will live to regret, you only have to look to recent history - the change to p2p for the publics has hardly been a roaring success.

im not against paying for a quality service, although i do object to paying over the odds, which seems the case here. can barrysworld really justify charging approx £4500 a year for what amounts to a less than 40 hours of server time a week? i know you qualify for other extras, bookables, etc, but i bet most clans wont take advantage of them..

..wouldn't it be better to have a reduced entry fee per season per clan? you're asking the clans to stump up a sizable amount of cash for one years play, when a decent percentage of clans will fold before they finish a single season.

that said, we will probably play in next seasons bwcsl, but unless there is a significant improvement in the quality of the servers it could be our last.....

...oh and I just wanna clear something up...

am i right in thinking that when you log in ips are recorded, and only those ip's can compete in league matches?

if that the case what happens to those who share a connection (as some of our members do), as they would all have the same IP?