Identity cards

[Scouse]

What's the use of a set of numbers that show an upward trend with no corroborating explanations?

blah.. stuff... blah...

Or, better still, in spite of the introduction of ID cards, crime has risen?

I think you've just made the point he was trying to make.

In spite of the fact that ID cards have been introduced common robbery has increased from 32,649 to 95,551, GBH has gone from 215k to 260k, neglect and ill treatment of children has doubled...

Exactly whywould we want ID cards if they:

a) Cost fuckloads
b) Don't help with terrorism
c) Don't help with crime
d) Don't help with identity theft...

There's easier way of stopping benefit fraud than ID cards - but they're being sold the the UK public on the back of the WTC getting blown up in America.

When was the last Al-Quaeda attack on British soil? Hardly worth it is it...

It's a waste of time. A waste of money. An unwarranted invasion of privacy.

No, I've absolutely nothing whatsoever to hide. But what f*cking business is it of the government to snoop indescriminately and for no good reason?

 

[Jonaldo]

I'm under the impression that identity theft and fraud has gone up in all the countries that have embraced identity cards - due to the single point of target for criminals.

They've also gone up in countries that haven't introduced ID cards.. Go figure.

It's gonna cost fuckloads and to work it'll have to be compulsory to carry 'em and I don't wanna get fined for not carrying something I really don't want to carry....

I don't understand where this comment has come from. Who said that it would be compulsory to carry any ID cards and when? At the moment you can use your drivers license, passport or various other means to prove your identity but you don't have to carry any of them anywhere. (even in your car you can just keep your drivers license in the motor if you really hate carrying cards THAT much).

Do people seem to be thinking that these cards will be brought in and then we'll all have to carry them 24/7 and can be stopped and told to show the card randomly or face a fine? This has never been the case and I don't know where that idea was given. I'll not be carrying any ID card around all the time, and very probably only dig it out when I leave the country and need a form of ID, pretty damn similar to the few times I carry idea at present.

In short if they got introduced or not they wouldn't affect my life in the slightest and no-one will be able to track what I'm doing and where any easier than they can right now.

 

[Scouse]

They've also gone up in countries that haven't introduced ID cards.. Go figure.

So...basically...they've gone up in both, therefore the introduction of ID cards has made no difference?

Just looking at the home office shit on ID cards you see them selling ID cards with this:

To deter illegal working <cash in hand? What about having a national insurance number to quote and a bank account??

To tackle immigration abuse <fail to see how this is going to be more effective than other forms of ID.

To strengthen security by disrupting the use of false and multiple identities by terrorists and organised crime groups <laughably shite as we already seemed to have agreed on.

To ensure free public services are only used by those entitled to them < so, basically, you effectively have to carry the card on you to get, say, hospital treatment.

To help protect people from identity theft As we all know. Shit.


So basically - no good reasons. Why why WHY? Waste of money.

 

[Scouse]

Interesting:

http://www.trevor-mendham.com/civil-liberties/identity-cards/


Don't agree with it all but some of it's bob-on IMHO.

 

[Tom]

Do people seem to be thinking that these cards will be brought in and then we'll all have to carry them 24/7 and can be stopped and told to show the card randomly or face a fine?

The compulsive part of the argument is that we'll all be required to actually pay for one. Nobody is suggesting you have to carry with you at all times, but you will be required to own one (despite what Blunkett says). The cost of the card has been estimated to around £30, directly or indirectly. Personally, I hope it would be directly, because then I could register my objection by telling them to shove it.

 

[dysfunction]

The point I was making is that an ID card wont stop crime...as Jonaldo with his tongue in cheek post stated.

In SA ID documents are free...apart from the recent photo you have to give them of yourself. You dont carry it with you. You dont get asked for it unless you are required to prove your identity like opening a bank account or something. Sorry I lie you have to keep it with you now as it also has your driving licence...and if you get stopped by traffic police you have to show your driving licence

 

[Paradroid]

I think you've just made the point he was trying to make.

In spite of the fact that ID cards have been introduced common robbery has increased from 32,649 to 95,551, GBH has gone from 215k to 260k, neglect and ill treatment of children has doubled...

Exactly whywould we want ID cards if they:

a) Cost fuckloads
b) Don't help with terrorism
c) Don't help with crime
d) Don't help with identity theft...
...

I think you missed my point, I was implying that without ID cards the crime rate might have risen further - who knows. Who cares? I don't. We're all slaves, accept it. I personally believe it's a preparatory tool for the post peak-oil clamp down. So it's probably better to get one, than not.

 

[MrHorus]

To deter illegal working <cash in hand? What about having a national insurance number to quote and a bank account??

To tackle immigration abuse <fail to see how this is going to be more effective than other forms of ID.

To strengthen security by disrupting the use of false and multiple identities by terrorists and organised crime groups <laughably shite as we already seemed to have agreed on.

To ensure free public services are only used by those entitled to them < so, basically, you effectively have to carry the card on you to get, say, hospital treatment.

To help protect people from identity theft As we all know. Shit.

I've not bothered to read through ALL the thread, but obviously this is a bit of a thorny subject.

Scouse, do you know what a "database", a "network" and a "computer" is?
The idea is that when immigrants come, they are issued with biometric id, which means that their face, iris and fingerprints are captured and stored in a database.

This means that should their asylum application prove unsucessful, they can be kicked out of the country for good without having to worry about them returning and trying again with false papers as the moment they attempt to gain a new id card, their details will be matched from the database along with the decision of their asylum claim.


The same applies to identity fraud as once your on the system, your identity is on it for good.
Short of burning off your fingerprints and going for radical cosmetic surgery, I dunno how you could have more than one identity (yes im sure there are ways round this so gawn, tell me).

Now, whats wrong with *having* to carry a card to obtain treatment?
Thats what its like in america. If you can't prove that you have insurance, you dont get treated.
Likewise, if you cant prove your a UK citizen, you shouldnt be able to rip off the NHS.
Again, somebody will point out the prospect of being in some sort of serious accident and not having their card on them.
I dunno how something like this would work, but im suspecting that they will presume you to be a UK citizen and ask you to present your card within 30 days to prove it, otherwise they will invoice you for the cost of treatment, which seems fair enough to me.

 

[Scouse]

Scouse, do you know what a "database", a "network" and a "computer" is?

Hope so, it's my job (which, I may say, I earn a f*ckload from)

The idea is that when immigrants come, they are issued with biometric id, which means that their face, iris and fingerprints are captured and stored in a database.

What about the thousands of immigrants who don't actually apply for asylum and work cash in hand or, more likely, start theiving (like in that shithole Bradford I lived in for 10 years)...

This means that should their asylum application prove unsucessful, they can be kicked out of the country for good without having to worry about them returning and trying again with false papers as the moment they attempt to gain a new id card, their details will be matched from the database along with the decision of their asylum claim.

Even if they did have an ID card on them how can you kick them out without finding them first?? They can't even kick the one's they already know about out of the country right now - how would a card help? (Please don't say "put a tracker in it").

Now, whats wrong with *having* to carry a card to obtain treatment?
Thats what its like in america. If you can't prove that you have insurance, you dont get treated.
Likewise, if you cant prove your a UK citizen, you shouldnt be able to rip off the NHS.

I don't need one to obtain treatment at the NHS now so why should I in the future?

Have you ever used the NHS? Unless I'm tragically mistaken it's free to all!! Unlike America where they regularly delay urgent treatment until they find out whether the patient can pay for it. (Which in many cases they can't). (I know you point it out below that quote but you've just admirably managed to show one of the problems that introducing an ID card would create).

I don't want to have to carry a card anywhere. It'd be a pain in the ass. If you do then whoopee for you!

I also don't want the possibility of being fined for not carrying one on me. I lose shit all the time - an ID card would be no different.


Just to be cheesy as fuck - If you've noticed the quotes that come up randomly on Freddyshouse you'll have noticed this one from Benjamin Franklin:

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety

He's talkin' bout you m8.

 

[Jonaldo]

I don't want to have to carry a card anywhere. It'd be a pain in the ass. If you do then whoopee for you!

I also don't want the possibility of being fined for not carrying one on me. I lose shit all the time - an ID card would be no different.

Again, I ask where this information has come from.

 

[dysfunction]

I think he made it up

 

[Scouse]

David Blunkett conceded in a BBC interview that the effectiveness of this scheme could possibly be compromised if it wasn't compulsory to carry them.

As with all politicians you could see what he was saying but he wasn't giving anything away so the next days papers didn't have a ready-made headline.

You're intelligent people - ask yourselves - what is the point of an ID card that you can leave at home?


Following on from this: When it becomes compulsory to carry them and you, say, get stopped by the police and asked to prove your ID what happens?

Do they:

a) say: "Oooh, it's compulsory you know. Now be off with you sonny"

or one of these,

b) say: "That's compulsory son. You're coming down the station with ME".

c) say: "That's compulsory son. On the spot fine for YOU".



It's not rocket science people. And neither is the above uber-suspicion. Just think for 30 seconds.

 

[]SK[]

Im all for them as long as were not being forced to pay stupid amounts for them.

 

[DaGaffer]

Im all for them as long as were not being forced to pay stupid amounts for them.

Well, you will be. At the last estimate it was about £37. Given the fact that its a government project, which means it'll arrive 5 years late and at least 400% overspent (NHS anyone?), you do the math.

I don't have a problem with ID cards in principle, but I do have a problem with the back end integration and the serious lack of accountability about who can use data and how. People on here have said 'well, the cops can look at all this info about you anyway', yes they can, but it's done on a case by case basis and a lot of it can't be done without a court order. With this, profiling of whole groups will become the norm and how long before you become a suspect simply because you're statistically likely to be an offender, in whatever category they choose.

As for those who say 'the innocent have nothing to fear', that's fine, except it rather depends on who's creating the definition of innocent. Our government is increasingly unaccountable (witness the latest Iraq doublespeak), and under the guise of anti-terrorism laws can pretty much bypass parliament whenever they like (and its not just Labour, whovever much I loathe them; the Tories would be just the same). You may have nothing to fear from an ID database now, but you might in the future, and then what will you do?

 

[Jonaldo]

You're intelligent people - ask yourselves - what is the point of an ID card that you can leave at home?

I have one, I call it Mr Passport.

When I want to go abroad I'll use the new ID card, open a bank account I'll use the ID card, drive somewhere I'll use the ID card, any other time I currently need ID I'll use the ID card. The rest of the time, as I do now, I'll leave it at home.

 

[GekuL]

I am indifferent, don't care either way. But the more I read this thread, the more I am in favour of them Those who are against them seem to have an overly exaggerated view of themselves, and believe they are the only ones capable of independant thought. I'd like to see them pissed off

 

[Scouse]

I have one, I call it Mr Passport.

When I want to go abroad I'll use the new ID card, open a bank account I'll use the ID card, drive somewhere I'll use the ID card, any other time I currently need ID I'll use the ID card. The rest of the time, as I do now, I'll leave it at home.

Don't try to be smart.


If you've already got an ID card in the form of a passport then why the fuck do you need another one?


It's because they want you to carry it on you all the time.

Don't play the fool when we're actually trying to have a serious conversation (for once).

 

[rynnor]

Theres a news story on the BBC frontpage about failure rates for bio-metric testing systems of 10-20% in field tests...

This is one of the things that will scupper the idea of ID cards identifying terrorists - if the systems are that bad people will just ignore the failures and pass em through...

 

[dysfunction]

If you've already got an ID card in the form of a passport then why the fuck do you need another one?

It's because they want you to carry it on you all the time.

That is not necessarily true...

Its like your driving licence. You dont have to carry that with you everywhere but if the police ask for it you have to show it to them within 3 days or something.

If you do have to carry them all the time...so what? I can't see the problem with it.

 

[Tom]

I received the following reply from my MP:

No mention of my rights to access my own information?

 

[rynnor]

Hey - whoever wrote that has as poor a command of punctuation as me with some of those neverending sentences broken up by commas!!!

Most significant bit I noticed was this 'In the majority of cases, an application for entry onto the National identity Register will be made when applying for or renewing an existing document'.

So with my dodgy Driving License/Passport that I made a false application for I can then get a nice new Identity card - isnt that nice... What will we bring out once the Identity cards are dis-credited - NIC2 - the revenge 'now its personal' ;P