Identity cards

[Paradroid]

heh, and a taxi is automatically called for you when your money runs out!

I think they're asking for just the basics - subversive citizen 1245789.

 

[maxi]

yo also,you know thathe current checks used to verify fingerprints belong to someone are not thorough enough to diffirentiate one person from the entire population, or even 1/10 of the population. I read that somewhere. Basically with the checks 2 people in a few million may have the 'same' fingerprints.

it's against civil liberties to be able to monitor people like this, it aint freedom.

 

[Driwen]

Why would the card need to say where I lived ? what my blood group was ? what my marital status is ? how many children do I have ? and quite a few other bits of information I have seen various people want to tag on to the 'ID' card.

if the goverment knows who you are, they already know what your marital status is and how many children you have or atleast they do in the netherlands (dont know if the police can access that info easily or not though, probably can).
And the ID card can still be used to see how much is paid and where and not see what is actually bought. If I use my PIN card to pay stuff in a shop, I only see when where and how much, I dont see that I bought that thing there. So the card can be used to monitor your money traffic without actually monitoring what you buy.

And maxi there is a difference between breaching privacy and freedom. If the ID card is brought in then you have less privacy towards the goverment, but you still have the same freedom you had (atleast if you are talking about freedom that is allowed, you have less "freedom" to commit fraud or other illegal things).

 

[rynnor]

Its a complete waste of money because the whole thing is fatally flawed - to get a super duper ID card you will only need easily forged current forms of ID - any half decent terrorist will have a selection of ID cards he can use as soon as they are launched...

What a total waste of time...

Israel is super secure and everyone has to carry ID but all it proves is that no state can be immune from Terrorism. Hopefully we wont go as far down the line as they have before we realise this fundamental truth as their economy has been totally destroyed - only foreign money props the state up.

But then its not really about terrorism is it really thats just a convenient cover story...

 

[Tilda]

Why would the card need to say where I lived ? what my blood group was ? what my marital status is ? how many children do I have ? and quite a few other bits of information I have seen various people want to tag on to the 'ID' card.

Wouldnt that be handy if, for example, you were in a car crash, and the ambulance crew could scan your iris, or swipe your card, and instantly know what blood group you were, any major allergies and who your relatives/next of kin were. Then when you got to hospital a swipe would let the hospital inform your GP (when your admitted to hospital, your GP gets told) instantly (just a note in the /Health folder on the card) and they can quickyl call up details for next of kin.
That would make sense to me...

Tilda

 

[inactionman]

The NHS are doing that anyway, it's called the NHSCRS, part of the NPfIT programme! Why do you think everyone (should at least) got a new (& unique) NHS number recently?

I can see positive points to a national ID card, it's just that the government are doing it:

*Wrong
*For the wrong reasons

For none of the reasons that they are saying why we need an ID card, will the ID card make the slightest bit of difference!

I also get worried when they refuse to comment on it being compulsory in future (it blatently will need to be), and they say that the contract details with the supplier & the structure of the electronic data held are confidential and shouldn't be made public!

As for the DPA & the FoIA, they only apply if no other statutory power does, so the ID card bill overrides them. When the information commissioner (the head of agency that oversees DPA & FoIA) is worried about the ID cards, I get *VERY* worried!

Combined with the way the home office is treating public opinion on this (we'll consult on it... *christ* we got more 'no we don't want it's' through one web-site than we got responces for the rest of the consultation, ahhh... they're all civil liberties nuts... lets treat them as one person so we can say public opinion was for it), I simply don't want it. Plus when surveys (by MORRI no less) say that at least 6 million people will protest, and 2 million people would rather face prison than have one.... Suffice to say I trust Darth Blunkett as far as I can spit him, I can't remember a more right-wing home secretary, and I *do* remember the last conservative government. In fact I trust this government as far as I can spit them, but I've always thought that democracy was the best of a bad bunch!

 

[SawTooTH]

ID cards, chips in cars to charge you for the roads you use (and track your movement). Why not just chip everyone? That way we can be identified by the chip and tracked. Surely no reasonable person can object to being tracked if they are honest.

Do you see where Im going with this? Its always phrased that a "reasonable" person couldnt object.

Well Im an unreasonable person who doesnt want a snooping big brother state knowing who I am or where I am. Want to see where that goes, Just look at Russia?

In a democratic country (and I know we live in a constitutional monarchy (jeez), before some geeky person points that out) you don't impinge on peoples freedoms.

Look at the policies that Blunkett et al have proposed over the last year or 2, using 9/11 and the continual threat of terrorism on an almost daily basis to put irrational fears into the people to get them to bend over and accept whatever right wing Fascistic bollocks they've concocted in their PC correct right on right wing policy think tank, just makes me want to vote for the monster raving loony party.

I guess I've just had enough of them. I really am starting to find being British distastful, and thats with no disrespect to soldiers etc as they ended up fighting over a lie, thats just the way our so called representitives have made me feel. This ID card thing is just too much..sorry...rant over

 

[SheepCow]

the structure of the electronic data held are confidential and shouldn't be made public!

The Data Protection Act could be used to get them surely?

I wouldn't mind if they made them compulsory, I already carry around my driving license, student union id, halls id.

I'd much rather them get rid of driving licenses and incorporate them into the new ID card

 

[Aada]

Im all for them like someone said....

if it makes the world a better place, do it
if it makes britain a better place, do it quicker..

IF IT STOPS BENIFIT SCROUNGIN FRUADIN ASSHOLES DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


PLEASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

im sick of going to work while the dole head sits in the pub all day drinking my MONEY away that ive worked to keep him alive....................

 

[inactionman]

The Data Protection Act could be used to get them surely?

As for the DPA & the FoIA, they only apply if no other statutory power does, so the ID card bill overrides them

You should be able to get access to most of the data (well except the super-secret stuff from the police & the gestapo), but see my quote above. They could put anything in the ID card bill and it would override the DPA, until it's overturned in europe at least. Considering the fact that the EU are probably taking us to court soon on our compliance to the Data Protection Directive (where the DPA comes from)...

As for stopping benefit fraud, it will reduce that significantly, but the ID card's will cost us more than that could save in probably about 30 years or so.... Sound a good deal? If so, there's a bridge I want to sell you!

 

[Will]

Remember kids, the 9/11 terrorists mostly travelled under their own, legally obtained passports. This ID card wouldn't help in the slightest.

 

[Paradroid]

Its a complete waste of money because the whole thing is fatally flawed - to get a super duper ID card you will only need easily forged current forms of ID - any half decent terrorist will have a selection of ID cards he can use as soon as they are launched...

The ID cards won't rely on any previous methods of confirming ID - a bill with your address on it won't be "cutting the mustard".

Have a look here for general details, and here for details of the bill.

WHAT IS BIOMETRIC INFORMATION?
A unique identifying physical characteristic. Examples include facial recognition, iris patterns and fingerprints. Recording biometric information at local, convenient access points will help to ensure that a person’s identity record is associated with information unique to that person. The biometric information can be stored on a chip on the card and on the National Identity Register. The uniqueness of biometric information will help prevent people’s identities being stolen and also will securely confirm a person’s identity
when a card is checked.

You'll be expected to go for an interview where you'll give your bio-details (fingerprinting, iris scan etc).


I don't see why you're so frightened by the bill. It makes sense that it will override the Data Protection Act & the Freedom of Info Act in parts - 'cause with the Data Protection Act all data held is time-bound (which would be silly for an ID card), and, the Freedom of Info Act allows anyone to request info from gov. & companies (not just personal data but processes & procedures, statistics and so on...)...I'm not surprised the Info Commisioner is worried, 'cause it'll mean more work for him!...he's shitting himself with the Freedom of Info Act!




It will also help us identify the real* terrorists, so we can ensure their safe passage in and out of countries!

(* the ones bought and paid for)

 

[Gengi]

Wouldnt that be handy if, for example, you were in a car crash, and the ambulance crew could scan your iris, or swipe your card, and instantly know what blood group you were, any major allergies and who your relatives/next of kin were. Then when you got to hospital a swipe would let the hospital inform your GP (when your admitted to hospital, your GP gets told) instantly (just a note in the /Health folder on the card) and they can quickyl call up details for next of kin.
That would make sense to me...

Tilda

I don't really think the above applies, unless your hitch hiking and no one knows where you are . How many times have you been in a car with a complete stranger, going somewhere no-one else knows about ? not often I would wager. Public transport is different, buses and trains are full of strangers. Anyway when they check my wallet they will find lots of information about me and my health I have my blood donor card, and a card saying if he is shaking and delerious, he may have some obscure tropical disease, please poke him with a long stick in the general direction of the nearest doctor/hospital, I also know of people who carry cards because they have allergies, or various conditions. I think that is almost de-rigeur when you are diagnosed with various ailments, you could ask your parents Tilda (I think its you who has the GP parents although it may be Sharma, my memory is failing, do I need that indicated onmy new card ? possibility of incipient Alzheimers ? )

Later

 

[Gengi]

And the ID card can still be used to see how much is paid and where and not see what is actually bought. If I use my PIN card to pay stuff in a shop, I only see when where and how much, I dont see that I bought that thing there. So the card can be used to monitor your money traffic without actually monitoring what you buy.

QUOTE]

Driwen, it is probably the same here in the UK, your bank statement only shows how much you spent not what you bought. But the barcode scanner that was used to find out the price of what you bought knows exactly what you bought and that information is stored, especially in supermarkets with loyalty cards, so they can send you the correct advertising .
Big brother is already here, I think I just object to the fact that the Government wants to shove it down my throat in the form of an ID card that may be so much more than a simple card that you use to prove who you are when accessing services from the Government.
I think the ID card should be like an official photograph/biometric identifier and no more. It should be granted after an interview where the photograph and biometric Identifier are taken, and before it is given their should be a check of the refernces you provide. I remember when I first applied for a passport 20 odd years ago, someone had to sign the back of my photographs (two people I think) saying it was a true likeness of me, they had to give their own details too so the information could be verified. *


Later


* may be complete bollocks and open to abuse as the present system is, unless the 'authorities' actually check the references

 

[Jonaldo]

Let's be honest with ourselves kiddies. What this country honestly needs is a good hard-line dictatorship to give us a good kick up the arse, get ride of the shit that has infested itself within our soils and to purge it of all wrongdoing without the worry of pathetic civil liberties and whiny rights that support people who want something for nothing in this world.
If a government could be created with these ideals but could be trusted not to become total megalomaniac powermongers when they have acheived all they have set out to do then I would gladly vote them in. Unfortunately we all know it will never happen and we're left with governments that have little power over what they supposedly control and have to choose between parties which have now totally lost all left or right wing beliefs and are all pretty much the same as each other.

ID cards won't change a thing - Unless you intend to break laws to achieve your means then you won't notice the difference. Even if it was your intention to do so, within a few months there will be ways around it so again.. very little difference. Moot point, let's get it on.






-edit

WARNING!
*posted while under the influence. May be wierd, nonsensical claptrap.*

 

[Tom]

We've already had a dictator. He proved massively unpopular, and the crowds did rejoice at the return of Charles II.

 

[Munkey]

Remember kids, the 9/11 terrorists mostly travelled under their own, legally obtained passports. This ID card wouldn't help in the slightest.

Also most of them got searched before getting on the plane. Still diddnt stop them!

 

[maxi]

This is quite amusing. You're saying they won't change a thing so let's get it on which translates as They're worthless so let;s spend shit loads of money on them.

And whilst I agree that they will change very little for the positive(a few reasons have been suggested) it's one step toward total control, alread been said 'Nanny State' .

 

[rynnor]

Biometric data is overhyped - its used at the moment on illegals but its still not good enough to confirm if the same person applies for asylum multiple times (anyone see that program where a journo pretended to be an asylum seeker and managed to get through the system twice ?) - how many places will have the ability to check that the persons bio-data actually matches that of the card - not many I bet - youd have to go down the station which means the police would need to be very suspicious already...

What you'll get in this reality is the police taking a cursory glance at your ID - its more than likely going to be used as a newly legalised way of picking on ethnic minorities - stop and search already does this but will the police be forced to record when they stop someone to demand ID?

So hows that going to stop anything once again?

The reality is that no system can actually pinpoint individuals - even genetic fingerprinting is not actually unique...

Other problems with the system - so 60+ million people are going to have an interview with a person who takes their biometric data - I can see that happening - what it means is that due to the scale of the undertaking you will get poorly trained overworked monkeys gathering the data - not a good start

Next it does still rely on existing forms of ID - you can apply for as many as you like using other ID - there is no way on earth that the government will be able to cross-correlate all the information required to prevent this - hell they are lucky if they can tell if you have a criminal record if you changed your name at the moment...

What about terrorists who are born in the UK???

What about foreign nationals - they wont be resident in the UK so wont have ID so cant be uniquely identified - will we treat all foreigners as terrorists??

Plus you could be a UK citizen and pretend to be a foreigner with a forged (or real/stolen) ID.

What about nicking the ID card of someone who looks like you - unless the biometric data is checked (and even then if your lucky) its a perfect cover.

Next - what happens when (due to the monkeys who took the original data) mismatches between the card and the individuals biodata become commonplace?

Honestly all this will do is cost lots of money and precious little else - I expect one of the big IT companies will get the contract - it will overrun by years and end up costing 400%-1000% of the original quote etc. etc.

Other than that its a great idea...

 

[Paradroid]

...

Other problems with the system - so 60+ million people are going to have an interview with a person who takes their biometric data - I can see that happening - what it means is that due to the scale of the undertaking you will get poorly trained overworked monkeys gathering the data - not a good start

What about passports? Passports will be using the same sort of ID assurances that ID cards will require (the US are demanding biodata on visitors passports from late next year, I think)... and aren't they available for 60+ million people?

Next it does still rely on existing forms of ID - you can apply for as many as you like using other ID - there is no way on earth that the government will be able to cross-correlate all the information required to prevent this - hell they are lucky if they can tell if you have a criminal record if you changed your name at the moment...

No! It won't reply on existing form of ID! And they will be able to cross-correlate!

What about terrorists who are born in the UK???

Then we'll know who they are! (?)

What about foreign nationals - they wont be resident in the UK so wont have ID so cant be uniquely identified - will we treat all foreigners as terrorists??

What about tourists? No ones saying it's going to stop every kind of immigration problem! If the whole EU agree to a standard then all EU nationals will be equally identifiable in the EU. Remember, the US are pushing for Biometrics on visitors passports. If you don't have it you don't get in! (plus or a minus - I can't decide...)

Plus you could be a UK citizen and pretend to be a foreigner with a forged (or real/stolen) ID.

What about nicking the ID card of someone who looks like you - unless the biometric data is checked (and even then if your lucky) its a perfect cover.

It'll look kinda funny when the fingerprint, iris scan and facial scan don't match and you couldn't answer the most basic questions about who you're claiming to be or (said persons) history.

It won't be a case of some policeman glancing at a drivers licence. They'll use facial/iris/fingerprint scanners to confirm it's your details. (ooo science! heh)

Next - what happens when (due to the monkeys who took the original data) mismatches between the card and the individuals biodata become commonplace?

I'm really stretching my imagination here...how about Quality Assurance at the gathering bio-data stage? Once "data entered", a quick double-check to see if it matches?

Honestly all this will do is cost lots of money and precious little else - I expect one of the big IT companies will get the contract - it will overrun by years and end up costing 400%-1000% of the original quote etc. etc.

Other than that its a great idea...

I believe the project will over run and cost 1000% extra etc....but I don't agree that this is all it will do. There are many people working on this project and the "numbers" (of investment and benefits) look good. There's still loads to be done, but they'll definately be here one day (can't say when).

 

[Will]

To all the people who say it won't rely on an existing form of ID...what will it rely on? Your word?

 

[Paradroid]

To all the people who say it won't rely on an existing form of ID...what will it rely on? Your word?

It's an official secret!

What you may be alluding to is the chance that someone will fraudulently take your ID before you? Well, there's an outside chance, but if you are you (sounds weird, I know) then you should be able to prove that you are you "better" than the original fraudster who's taken your ID.

And please don't come back with "but that won't stop terrorists etc", I know! It's not (and never will be) 100% perfect (where there's a will there's a way - again!). Identity fraud is huge, ID cards will reduce it.

 

[dysfunction]

I'm all for ID cards here.

Had them in South Africa and they worked very well....didnt experience any problems having them. When you are issued with it they take your fingerprints as well.

I think its an advantage to the country and the individual.

 

[Jonaldo]

I'm all for ID cards here.

Had them in South Africa and they worked very well....didnt experience any problems having them. When you are issued with it they take your fingerprints as well.

I think its an advantage to the country and the individual.

Not if you're a criminal!!1

It takes away their civil liberties and rights to break the law! Thus making us into some kind of grandma state and our big brothers will know everything we do.

 

[dysfunction]

Not if you're a criminal!!1

It takes away their civil liberties and rights to break the law! Thus making us into some kind of grandma state and our big brothers will know everything we do.

You obviously have not seen SA's latest crime statistics

 

[Scouse]

Not being an expert on the subject but having watched (in passing) a few BBC documentaries and read a few texts on aforementioned subject I'm under the impression that identity theft and fraud has gone up in all the countries that have embraced identity cards - due to the single point of target for criminals.

Yes. It stops some petty crime - but makes it a lot easier for the big boys - costing countries more in the long run.


The thing is. I can't see any tangible benefits. I mean real ones - not the "wow won't it be great if we don't have to show three things to get insertwhateveritishere" shit.

It's gonna cost fuckloads and to work it'll have to be compulsory to carry 'em and I don't wanna get fined for not carrying something I really don't want to carry....

Sometimes, shock, I like to go out with a tenner in my pocket and nothing else...!

(Barring clothes of course)

 

[Scouse]

By 'ek. Those identitiy cards have really helped with the crime in South Africa eh?





You'd have to be a fucking retard to want them introduced. And by that I mean to personally insult everyone in favour of 'em....

....but not in a really nasty way chaps

 

[Tom]

Pretty much my feelings Scouse. I think I'll use www.faxyourmp.com and register my objections with my MP. And before anyone says that won't make a difference, don't bother, because I don't agree.

 

[Paradroid]

You obviously have not seen SA's latest crime statistics

What's the use of a set of numbers that show an upward trend with no corroborating explanations?

Jeez, I thought we were all well versed in statistical voodoo whenever anyone wants to help prove their claim (both labour & tory use the same figures here to prove opposing arguments).

Do the figures reflect more population? More police? Perhaps the ID cards have helped capture more criminals? (...what with the fingerprinting and all that...) Perhaps, through nothing to do with ID cards (and more to do with SA surfacing from years of social & political apartheid) there's more crime being committed in SA? Or, better still, in spite of the introduction of ID cards, crime has risen?

:touch:

 

[Paradroid]

Besides, that website also lists an anual report, which highlights the figures alluded to....it seems that 9 out of the 33 total crime indicators has risen in the last year which means that 24 of the 33 crime indicators were reduced? ...

... also, on their website you can report a crime (which makes reporting much easier - a trend not around ten years ago) ... strange thing to post in favour of no ID cards ...

and here's another interesting page from that website...detailing police per head of population. The SA popluation has increased (so did it's police force), but even though crime has reduced in the last year, there are less police per civilian than 2 years ago...