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RandomIce
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- #31
Or a frenchman
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mank!
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RandomIce
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:wall:
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PR.
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- #34
Re: Re: - Vote for ID Cards
I'm pretty sure there's other human rights that cover you being...
Burgalled
Murdered
Raped
Assaulted
Mugged
But we can ignore these because after all if the people can still smoke their pot behind the bike sheds without fear of being watched by a camera or if they are caught they can just give a false address and no one will the be the wiser 'til its too late, its all been worth it
I like the right as a human to go outside and walk down to Tescos with out fearing for my life.
There is no sensible reason for not making ID Cards compulsory and not matching them up with all your personal data, the money that would be saved from benefit fraud, and wasted police time would save the tax payer millions if not the cost of its creation
I'm pretty sure there's other human rights that cover you being...
Burgalled
Murdered
Raped
Assaulted
Mugged
But we can ignore these because after all if the people can still smoke their pot behind the bike sheds without fear of being watched by a camera or if they are caught they can just give a false address and no one will the be the wiser 'til its too late, its all been worth it
I like the right as a human to go outside and walk down to Tescos with out fearing for my life.
There is no sensible reason for not making ID Cards compulsory and not matching them up with all your personal data, the money that would be saved from benefit fraud, and wasted police time would save the tax payer millions if not the cost of its creation
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Testin da Cable
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don't get me wrong, I'm with you mate. just pointing out that there are people who are, perhaps more socially minded than we are, whatever the benefits we may reap and will oppose
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Will
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- #36
I feel it unfair (using PR's rather extreme example) to allow myself to be watched and traced 24/7, just because if I do nothing wrong, I shouldn't mind.
On top of that, I'd have been locked up long ago.
Edited so I don't look like I've already gone to jail.
On top of that, I'd have been locked up long ago.
Edited so I don't look like I've already gone to jail.
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DaGaffer
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Re: Doubts
Much as it distresses me to agree with TedTheDog ever, ;-) I'm with him on this one. Sure, datamining is great, high-tech utopian future, blah, blah. Bottom line is, "do you trust your government?" Personally, about as far as I can throw the Houses of Parliament up the Thames.
You have to question the motivation of a government that will make it a specific offence if you don't keep your details updated on the ID database, but don't feel the need to make it a specific offence to abuse the scheme.
I also find it rather stunning that the government is prepared to countenance spending £1.5 billion on this, at a time when the Metropolitan police are saying they're not going to investigate burglaries anymore because they don't have the resources!
As for "If you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to hide", well, kiddies, when was the last time you were consulted on the law-making process? Tie in ID smart cards to your web surfing habits (it will happen eventually) for instance?
Although implementation of such a scheme will no doubt come in 10 years late and at three times the price, once it works, government has you by the balls forever.
Much as it distresses me to agree with TedTheDog ever, ;-) I'm with him on this one. Sure, datamining is great, high-tech utopian future, blah, blah. Bottom line is, "do you trust your government?" Personally, about as far as I can throw the Houses of Parliament up the Thames.
You have to question the motivation of a government that will make it a specific offence if you don't keep your details updated on the ID database, but don't feel the need to make it a specific offence to abuse the scheme.
I also find it rather stunning that the government is prepared to countenance spending £1.5 billion on this, at a time when the Metropolitan police are saying they're not going to investigate burglaries anymore because they don't have the resources!
As for "If you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to hide", well, kiddies, when was the last time you were consulted on the law-making process? Tie in ID smart cards to your web surfing habits (it will happen eventually) for instance?
Although implementation of such a scheme will no doubt come in 10 years late and at three times the price, once it works, government has you by the balls forever.
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RandomIce
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- #38
One way or another most of us have goverment id anyway. If this just combines what they already know it doesnt do all that much.
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Ash!
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- #39
I'm with Will on this one.
Its all well and good saying If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. Bullshit. Who decides on what is acceptable to hide and what isnt ? Its not me and its certainly not some of the people who have posted on this forum.
Even if you dont do anything wrong and you are a model drone. Sorry free thinking citizen who pays his taxes on time. blah blah blah then the fact is you are still being monitered regardless of what you do. To me that is an infringement on my civil liberty to privacy.
I will finish with this thought. Currently we have the right to say no and protest to how much our government can monitor and control us to a degree. If as a nation we do agree to the ID card system, what happens if it doesnt work ? and as a nation we do find it overtly intrusive. Will the system be cancelled or reveresed. I think if everyone is being honest the answer will be no. With an ID card you are nothing more than a number.
Its all well and good saying If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about. Bullshit. Who decides on what is acceptable to hide and what isnt ? Its not me and its certainly not some of the people who have posted on this forum.
Even if you dont do anything wrong and you are a model drone. Sorry free thinking citizen who pays his taxes on time. blah blah blah then the fact is you are still being monitered regardless of what you do. To me that is an infringement on my civil liberty to privacy.
I will finish with this thought. Currently we have the right to say no and protest to how much our government can monitor and control us to a degree. If as a nation we do agree to the ID card system, what happens if it doesnt work ? and as a nation we do find it overtly intrusive. Will the system be cancelled or reveresed. I think if everyone is being honest the answer will be no. With an ID card you are nothing more than a number.
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RandomIce
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- #40
ID cards have nothing to do with being watched. ID cards just mean that the goverment has a centralised depository of information instead of Driving license, birht records, tax records, criminal records making it easier for someone to prove who they are and making it easier for the authorities to identify you. This doesnt mean there going to watch you 24/7 it just means they know where you live.
I agree with the fact everyone needs privacy but I also think that if ID cards where done well it could be an advantage to society.
As for who decides what you've got to hide, the law does
I agree with the fact everyone needs privacy but I also think that if ID cards where done well it could be an advantage to society.
As for who decides what you've got to hide, the law does
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Will
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This has kind of split into two discussions (my bad), ID cards, and generally how much you will let the government intrude on your lives.
ID cards - bad because they seem like a waste of money if they aren't compulsory, and if they are, they make criminals out of people who leave their wallet at home. Add to that the whole datamining issue. Yes, it could be very good as Steiny stated, but I'd don't like the idea of it. I work with a very sensitive dataase myself, and so I have some idea about this. That contract for the ID cards will to the lowest quote (Don't you love that idea?), so I don't trust it will be secure. Externally maybe, but against low-paid employees on the inside? Lets give it a few years and review the idea, eh Mr Blair?
General civil liberties - I hate the attitude of "If you are doing nothing wrong, it doesn't matter". Then again, I'm a criminal, so of course I'm going to say that.
But I don't hurt anyone, I go to work every day, I pay my taxes, and if I didn't giggle quite so much, you couldn't tell I was doing anything wrong.
Lets here the motorists chirp up when, if you go over 70, your car slows you back down, and an email speeding ticket is already on its way to your inbox. Its a very slippery slope, and its best not to get started on it.
), ID cards, and generally how much you will let the government intrude on your lives.ID cards - bad because they seem like a waste of money if they aren't compulsory, and if they are, they make criminals out of people who leave their wallet at home. Add to that the whole datamining issue. Yes, it could be very good as Steiny stated, but I'd don't like the idea of it. I work with a very sensitive dataase myself, and so I have some idea about this. That contract for the ID cards will to the lowest quote (Don't you love that idea?), so I don't trust it will be secure. Externally maybe, but against low-paid employees on the inside? Lets give it a few years and review the idea, eh Mr Blair?
General civil liberties - I hate the attitude of "If you are doing nothing wrong, it doesn't matter". Then again, I'm a criminal, so of course I'm going to say that.
But I don't hurt anyone, I go to work every day, I pay my taxes, and if I didn't giggle quite so much, you couldn't tell I was doing anything wrong.
Lets here the motorists chirp up when, if you go over 70, your car slows you back down, and an email speeding ticket is already on its way to your inbox. Its a very slippery slope, and its best not to get started on it.
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Ash!
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So if Passports and Driving Licenses are so easy duplicate/faked wouldnt it be safe to assume that ID cards could also be faked as well.
In essence making it an opt in or out system for the more unruly elements of society we are trying to protect ourselves from in the first place.
The
In essence making it an opt in or out system for the more unruly elements of society we are trying to protect ourselves from in the first place.
The
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RandomIce
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- #43
In the case of cars you could just hax0r the chip that does it Or apply a rocket engine to your car so it takes off when going over 70 (88mph obviusly)
Or apply a rocket engine to your car so it takes off when going over 70 (88mph obviusly)
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legendario
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- #44
No, they will contain a chip that stores information about the holder.
Although saying that, anything can be forged/duplicated.
Although saying that, anything can be forged/duplicated.
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Will
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You missed out stolen...
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DaGaffer
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Originally posted by Will.
You missed out stolen...
Well, apparently not, if tied in with retinal scans/fingerprints - although they could always do a Minority Report...
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RandomIce
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Well we could all become mafiosa and make a profit out of it.
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Will
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- #48
I've not seen the film. I take it you mean borrowing a finger. A little bit drastic maybe.
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RandomIce
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Actually he means eye swapping. In minoirty report every1 was identified by eye scan, meaning authorities knew where u were from your eyescan results. Except crooks paid money to have there eyes taken out and new ones put back in. Thats what srgt anderson had done to him, except he kept his to get back in the precrime precinct.
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Summo
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- #50
Here's a list of the ID and information I'm aware of government agencies possessing about me. I dare say it's the same for you lot.
DVLA - Name, address, age, motoring convictions, full history of vehicles owned
Passport service - Name, address, age, place of birth, nationality, all previous addresses, parents' names and addresses
Inland Revenue - Name, address, age, employment details
Local Government - Name, address, age, employment details
Social Services - Name, address, age, employment history
NHS - Name, address, age, full medical history
Police - Name, address, age, full conviction history (I ain't got form), vehicle history
Fuck's sake, even the bin men know where I live.
Now tell me how having an ID card is going to allow the government to 'spy' on me any more than they currently can/do?
DVLA - Name, address, age, motoring convictions, full history of vehicles owned
Passport service - Name, address, age, place of birth, nationality, all previous addresses, parents' names and addresses
Inland Revenue - Name, address, age, employment details
Local Government - Name, address, age, employment details
Social Services - Name, address, age, employment history
NHS - Name, address, age, full medical history
Police - Name, address, age, full conviction history (I ain't got form), vehicle history
Fuck's sake, even the bin men know where I live.
Now tell me how having an ID card is going to allow the government to 'spy' on me any more than they currently can/do?
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Will
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Ok, Police gain access to my blood tests and medical records...You can bet they'd be on my doorstep shortly after that. I don't want to hide things from my doctor.
Less paranoidly, any employee in any of those departments would have access to any of the information. Insurance companies love to get medical records, any number of shadey groups like parents names/addresses. Thats the easy points.
Less paranoidly, any employee in any of those departments would have access to any of the information. Insurance companies love to get medical records, any number of shadey groups like parents names/addresses. Thats the easy points.
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retardo
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- #52
My argument, as posted, is that I feel they aren't telling us the truth about its purpose.
They have failed to get support for an ID card before, so what are they doing?
They are trying to get support for an ENTITLEMENT card, which is the same thing. Its the same reason I dont trust sales and marketing blurb - they are trying to put a friendly spin on a shit product.
If its going to be so great, why are they lying about its purpose?
When I feel they are telling the truth, then I will consider it.
Right now I dont trust the government one bit. I have never voted before.
Next election you can be sure I will vote.
They have failed to get support for an ID card before, so what are they doing?
They are trying to get support for an ENTITLEMENT card, which is the same thing. Its the same reason I dont trust sales and marketing blurb - they are trying to put a friendly spin on a shit product.
If its going to be so great, why are they lying about its purpose?
When I feel they are telling the truth, then I will consider it.
Right now I dont trust the government one bit. I have never voted before.
Next election you can be sure I will vote.
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xane
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- #53
This is the kind of enternal pessimism that seems to plague stand.org too, give the government some kind of information and next thing we're all living in a police state.
The basic problem is that the fiddling of state welfare is crippling this country, we already have a sizeable influx of new people coming into the country annually and they all need education, health and social security from a system that is abused and undermanned, this is an issue that bothers even those who just use the Daily Mail to wipe their bottom with.
Fraud is a problem for everyone, not only as a tax burden, my wife recently had a sound legitimate reasons for Incapacity Benefit, the red tape that needs to be poured through and the obvious backlog on claims they have make it a serious chore, all for the sake of filtering the legitimacy of the claim, it has a bad impact on those genuine cases.
The reason why it is termed an "entitlement card" is precisely because it is an answer. The political stance is there because this will become an hot issue in the next few years as we see more and more welfare lost to fraud and a rising population (due almost entirely to positive immigration), in fact the government have taken us all by surprize as we find ourselves with rulers intent on avoiding the problem rather than waiting till it reaches crisis point.
I didn't learn to drive until I was 28, before that I had a hard time trying to produce ID for mundane reasons (like getting a package from the PO), you could say I was "forced" into driving for this reason, in fact once I did pass my test it was nearly 4 years before I actually owned my own car, with the advent of photos on the licence it has further ingrained as the standard for ID proof.
"Mandatory ID" is not something I actually have a problem with personally and neither should anyone else as it is already 90% with us with driving licences, but I certainly see how it can be abused and at present I think the government should detail more on that issue, despite being against ID cards on principle I can't see any other solution to the "welfare fraud" problem we have.
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throdgrain
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- #54
Personally I cant see anything wrong with id cards. From my own point of view it would make my job a lot easier. For finance most companies require both parts of your driving licence plus one other proof , whereas an ID card would sort all that.
Same as the other thread recently, if you havent done anything wrong wheres the problem ?
I imagine it would be very useful in dealing with illegal immegrants etc.
Same as the other thread recently, if you havent done anything wrong wheres the problem ?
I imagine it would be very useful in dealing with illegal immegrants etc.
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throdgrain
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Retardo is that you from OAP ?
Hi if it is
Anyway, if you're saying you dont trust this government, which is your right, I'd guess you wernt around in the 80's in the days of Thatcher and the conservatives.
That lot make Mr Blair and his pals look like angels. I dont think I could ever vote tory, no matter what happened.
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RandomIce
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- #56
exactly, if it were to combine the id you do carry could make ur wallet lighter
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Summo
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- #57
I disgree with you here, Will. The reason you're worried about the Police accessing your blood records is because it would prove that you break the law... regularly. You know the risks.Originally posted by Will.
Ok, Police gain access to my blood tests and medical records...You can bet they'd be on my doorstep shortly after that. I don't want to hide things from my doctor.
Less paranoidly, any employee in any of those departments would have access to any of the information. Insurance companies love to get medical records, any number of shadey groups like parents names/addresses. Thats the easy points.
Secondly the Police wouldn't give any more of a shit that you have a little indiscretion now and again. They're talking about not investigating burglaries because they're under-resourced. I dare say the most you'd get is a mail-shot every year informing you of the perils of illegal substances.
Any employee in the department would not have access to this info. I work in Local Government and secure access to very sensitive information is taken very seriously. We have records of sex offenders, known paedophiles and every school child in the County among other things. You can imagine how keen people are to protect this data.
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bodhi
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- #58
ID Cards are a good idea. As long as they're roachable.
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xane
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- #59
Not me, I gave away my copy of Quadrophenia.
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DaGaffer
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STAND tend to be pessimistic, because Government have given them no reason to take any other view. The whole 'consultation' in true New Labour fashion has been done in an underhand way (it reminds of Arthur Dent's efforts to find out about planning permission) and there's a clear mismatch between their spin on support and the actual numbers. Even if their numbers were accurate, do you really believe 1500 people is representative of the views of the UK population on such an important issue? It's not even statistically significant, never mind politically representative. If they can't be trusted not to fudge the figures on the consultation, what are they going to be like when they've got the data?