I am sorry....

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Originally posted by Will
And as for the advantages of the special relationship, you see it as in bed with the US and Europe, where you could see it as stuck between. We get punished with export taxes because the EU doesn't want American beef, but we also become a good target for extremists because we have sent troops into Iraq.

But the rest of Europe have alienated the most powerful nation in the world. Just because there are some obvious downsides doesnt mean there arent greater, but more complex benifits. Its just this kind of thinking that forces politicians to lie.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

Will i fully agree that the prisoners should be sent back to their respective countries and triled fairly there. And seriously these sort of arguments always bring out the people with the "Kill em all" attitude.

Stop and think what you are saying, when you go on about killing the evil bastards.

The US arn't treating them as POWs as they don't class terroists as POWs. Therefore they are being treated like shit. Yet the term the US likes shouting about best is: "The war against terroism" meaning they are at War with terroists, so if they capure any technically they are POWs.

Oh and will stop trying to take eeryone on, some people do agree with you

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Flamin_Squirrel
Its just this kind of thinking that forces politicians to lie.

Eh?

"Look Tony, some of our electorate is having independant thoughts. We better lie to them a bit until they give up."

And I shall say again to all the "fuck 'em, they are guilty" replies...do you think they should be killed without trial? What if it was you in there?

No matter the circumstances, I'd like some due process, and maybe a touch of innocent until proven guilty.

[Edit] And I can take them all DMW. Just I want to do it before I go for my lunch. And without editing all their posts.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

They are quite happy to lock up the terroists that have not been proven guilty. Yet noone wants to (With good reason) try and get Bush and Blair indited for an illega war.

This is why i have a complete hatred for politics. In theory it is all well and good. But the worst always get away with murder as it were.

P.S: That and the fact i spend most evenings having to be nice to hoards of em. And after spending far to many years meeting these hypocritical, arrogant and patronising bastards... i love em all

P.P.S: Will.... No, just no

 

[Will]

I wouldn't really. I even used the smilie.

And no leaving for lunch...its pissing down with rain.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

Oh joy.... more scottish leftyness

*Hides*

 

[Munkey-]

Dont agree with what Bush is doing at all. Going to the UN council and saying "invade iraq with me or becoming irrelevant", yet now he needs the UN and its forces to stop Iraq becoming a US quagmire. Guess alot of americans must have been pissed off when Bush finally got around to telling them that "oh yes. Saddam actually DOESNT have any links with al quada (sp)"

Infact, the only reason left on his list now is "regime change". Wonder what he's going to come up with next to try and boost his polls?

 

[Deadmanwalking]

Munkeh the scariest part of this whole fiasco, is the fact tha americans are lapping it all up. At least in this country we are starting to ask some proper questions of the reason behind war and it's reasons.

I fear Bush will be as popular as ever come next election. I hope im wrong, i really do but i fear im not

So i present a solution:
Texas, Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure

 

[Gumbo]

Don't lump me in with the 'no trial' doods, which I'm sure you haven't.

Bush isn't apparently having the problems with the lack of WoMD's that Blair is increasingly getting, because he has essentially come out and said, 'who gives a fuck about WoMD's, we did an evil dictator in, and that's good enough for me!'. The American people seem largely to be happy with this train of thought too.

I'm personally happy that Saddam is no longer in power, but I'm not happy that we may have been lied to to justify the action. If it turns out we have been, then something needs to be done.

I'm saying that I don't think it was wrong to go to war, but I do think it was wrong to lie to people about the reasons for it.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Deadmanwalking
I fear Bush will be as popular as ever come next election. I hope im wrong, i really do but i fear im not

George W is at his lowest approval rating since September 11th, with only 50%. However, he will have the biggest ever election budget in US history come poll time. I seem to remember reading somewhere it would be around about $170 million for the primaries alone.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

Spot on gumbo.

But on the flipside, i think Bush/Blair knew/know something VERY scary, not just about Iraq but Al queida (sp).
The thing that i fear more then anything for the future, is North Korea.

Now there is where we really have to worrying. They have a nuclear arsenal which they even admit to and the Dictator there is a a certified nutter. Americans have been sending men and resources there for the past few years and if anything does start there. It's Game over.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

Originally posted by Will
George W is at his lowest approval rating since September 11th, with only 50%. However, he will have the biggest ever election budget in US history come poll time. I seem to remember reading somewhere it would be around about $170 million for the primaries alone.

He got into power originaly only by a dodgy count in his borthers state. So i would give up on hopeing for a fully fair election... i did years ago.

Edit: My god i am sounding like a depressed bastard. Cheer up me FFS!

 

[Will]

Iraq and Al Qaeda have nothing in common. At least, they didn't until the US invaded. True, there were a couple of AQ camps, but they were in the northern no-fly zones, where the central Iraqi government had no effective control. Funnily enough, the Kurds in the area are our friends...go figure.

North Korea...I don't worry about them as much as the US. Korea would react to events, rather than act.

A country which has said it will make a pre-emptive nuclear strike, and is currently developing a new generation of baby nukes...now, doesn't that sound much worse?

 

[Jonaldo]

Originally posted by Will
A country which has said it will make a pre-emptive nuclear strike, and is currently developing a new generation of baby nukes...now, doesn't that sound much worse?

Who has said that?

Who are the 'no trial' doods? not seen anyone supporting the fact people are being held with no charge.
I just say if they are found to be terrorists, I don't want to rehabilitate them or let them ever see the light of day again. At the same time I wouldn't want them executed as they would be more than happy with that outcome.

 

[kameleon]

Round em up, put em in a field, and BOMB THE BASTARDS! </kenny Everrett>

You play with matches, sooner or later you are going to be burnt. I personally think that all the british subjects they found fighting for the Taliban should have their citizenship revoked anyway.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

Originally posted by Jonaldo
I'll disagree also.

They should be tortured but force fed and kept alive and the images should be made public as a lesson to any other potential terrorists.

Go figure?

 

[Jonaldo]

Terrorists should be yes.
In order to make other potential terrorists think twice.
Maybe you mistook what I was saying.

Go figure.

 

[old.ignus]

I think that we have no idea as to the whole story behind these people being held as terrorists. A lot of people have mentioned what if it were you, well if I were in Afganistan at the time of the war on terrorism, near a opium or arms factory, holding an AK and some american or British soldiers turned up and then opened fire on them shouting praise for allah in a vain attempt to defend my honour then I'd probably think I was guilty of something. Let's face it if these people were arrested or whatever the term is for them then it won't have been for wondering around a village unarmed, they must have been doing something otherwise the entire population of Afganistan would be locked up. They may not be classed as POWs but technically that's what they are until the americans think of another term for them.
And think about it they're not being treated that badly, they're handcuffed and hooded 24/7 but they probably wouldn't be in that state if they weren't so fanatical and kept vowing to kill their captures first chance they get. At least they're not being forced to build a railway through inhospitable jungles on rations that make David Blaine hungry, or being force marched across the frozen Steppe with no food or water or direction.
I agree that execution is no punishment for people who welcome death, but they do require punishment just like any other murderer.

 

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Originally posted by Will
Eh?

"Look Tony, some of our electorate is having independant thoughts. We better lie to them a bit until they give up."

And I shall say again to all the "fuck 'em, they are guilty" replies...do you think they should be killed without trial? What if it was you in there?...

I was refering to the war on Iraq, not the 'terrorists'.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Jonaldo
Who has said that?

The US, of course. You do read the news, don't you?

Mini-nukes are popular.

First strike

I like the last link in each section best.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Jonaldo
Terrorists should be yes.
In order to make other potential terrorists think twice.
Maybe you mistook what I was saying.

Go figure.

This is a thread about the illegal combatants the US has at Cuba...and you wonder why we are confused?

 

[Jonaldo]

They aren't POWs at all, not even close to being so.
Prisoners of War are enemy soldiers who have been taken captive in a *war*,taken to secure camps and held under the Geneva Convention rules.

These are people being held on suspicion of crimes, not soldiers in honourable combat. Terrorism is not a war.

The 'War on Terrorism' is not a war, it is just a label given to the movement most nations are taking to prevent acts of terrorism against ANY nation, not just the USA.

Terrorism is a low, cowardly act of extreme violence that hurts innocent people and we should not have any sympathy for anyone found guilty of terrorism or even supporting terrorist groups.

 

[Yoni]

I agree on the point that any British citizen should have their citizenship revoked if they are proven to be involved in terrorist activities however it is fundamentally against any human rights to hold people without trial.

Bring them back give them a fair trial and then deport then revoke their citizanship if proven guilty.

 

[Jonaldo]

Originally posted by Will
This is a thread about the illegal combatants the US has at Cuba...and you wonder why we are confused?

I saw what I thought was people talking about terrorists, and you wonder why I was talking about terrorists?

 

[Will]

They were not terrorists for definate. They were troops who fought with the Taliban. Since the Taliban was not offically recognised as a government, all its troops were declared illegal combatants, and hence the Geneva convention does not apply.

Again, without trial, how do we know? Innocent until proven guilty etc etc.

 

[Jonaldo]

Originally posted by Will
The US, of course. You do read the news, don't you?

I skip past anything to do with Iraq or US war bullshit that means nothing.

I got very bored of all that.

Tony Blair I think realises if he gets involved in another war just for the sake of supporting the US he will have absolutely no chance of winning another election, or indeed of being the Labour party leader.

edit: I just took the time to read through all those articles, some dating back to over a year old.
None have any real substance and no quotes from Bush about actually making these 'mini-nukes' so all in all pretty tame reading. I don't think anyone would be worried about those.

 

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Originally posted by Gumbo

I'm saying that I don't think it was wrong to go to war, but I do think it was wrong to lie to people about the reasons for it.

I disagree with that completely. The majority of the population are stupid, and dont want to belive things like their high standard of living is to the detriment of all the people of the 2nd and 3rd world contries.

If Tony lied about the reasons for going to war (which im sure he did), its because he knew that everyone would get on their moral high horses and say its was naughty.

Dont get me wrong, im no heartless facist barstard, but i dont delude myself into thinking that the western way of life doesnt come at a price, and if that means going to war so be it.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

Originally posted by Jonaldo
Terrorism is a low, cowardly act of extreme violence that hurts innocent people and we should not have any sympathy for anyone found guilty of terrorism or even supporting terrorist groups.

And American and British munitions missing targets and hitting innocents?

Or them hitting target sthey suepect of housing a terroist? Even if it is a school or a hospital?

Firing off 2000 cluster capable shells in iraq, but wait it's ok only 10% of them don't explode. Ah well some 200 are still lying around waiting for little timmy and his mates to step on it.

Because it is backed/endorsed by a "good" western government doesn't make it noble... far far from it.

Edit: Oh and if they arn't POWs then the Americans were fighting an illegal war? As it would have to be against a country surely... which as you said they arn't so .....?

Trust me on this one. The US has got itself into a serious rut with those prisoners and they are trying everything they can to get out of it. Be that with misinformation or plain lying. They have no intention of backing down.

 

[Jonaldo]

Originally posted by Deadmanwalking
And American and British munitions missing targets and hitting innocents?

Or them hitting target sthey suepect of housing a terroist? Even if it is a school or a hospital?

Firing off 2000 cluster capable shells in iraq, but wait it's ok only 10% of them don't explode. Ah well some 200 are still lying around waiting for little timmy and his mates to step on it.

Because it is backed/endorsed by a "good" western government doesn't make it noble... far far from it.

heh! you almost make it sound like I supported the war.
I was 100% against it for your information and still to this day don't understand what we sent soldiers out there for and why we still have them there.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

Please if you have a point to make on this subject make it and then support it or dont. Can we try and keep it away from HAH you are wrong i dont this or that.

And that was a direct quote from you, maybe you wrote it wrong or whatever but it reads like you have a complete hatred for terroists. Which i agree with... but who decides who the terroists are?

Edit: And if you really want some hilarious reading on the iraq situation read John Pilger... that man is not only an idiot but also arrogant about the fact.

http://www.theglobalsite.ac.uk/

Have a look at that.