How important are "games of skill"?

[Dukat]

Hey hey!

I was just thinking about games of skill, and about how important people consider them to be?

A game of skill being anything that involves skill more than it involves chance. For example: not snap so much as chess, football and counter strike

I've always thought of these things as important without thinking about why I considered them important. I said in another thread that one of the most important things to me is being the best at whatever I do. Obviously an unrealistic goal, but when it comes to games of skill I can sometimes get addicted. I've spent far too much money on arcade and fairground games, and far too much time on stupid internet games, because I've always been obsessed with being good at whatever it is I'm doing.

I read this wiki article about the subject, the second paragraph was what made me start thinking.

Game of skill

A game of skill is a game where the outcome is determined mainly by mental and/or physical skill, rather than by pure chance.

One benefit of games of skill is that they are a means of exploring one's own capabilities. Games encourage the player to look at, understand, and experience things. They teach people lessons about themselves and possibly the world, and allow such insights to be passed on to others.

How interesting that most people regard games that do the above, games like Counter strike, Football and chess which (I thought) most people consider good fun but just good fun, "just a game", rather than something which has the potential to help you develop as a person.

Discuss!

 

[psyco]

are you talking primarily about video games or?

my brother often accuses me of being over lucky when it comes video games, cause he doesn't see the suttle difference's(he seems to have little concept of depth perception, ai trends and simple mapping of zones, but his only 10)

i just respond with leetism

 

[psyco]

i have to disagree with you about football

often you will see a team that plays miles better than there opersition, but won cause of a lucky shot, or even penalties... agreed skill is involved when taking/saving penalties but its probably 50skill 50luck

also, ive seen 1 game where the ref wasn't watching and missed a goal and wasn't counted
ive also seen a 'goal' where the goalkeeper was messing around with the ball and it crossed the line, and the ref counted the goal
changing the result of the game

and the referee decisions are often baced on luck, depending on his pov, fair tackles ect

edit: every game has a degree of skill, even if its not obvious at the outset, one could argue that there's an element of skill involved in dice rolling

 

[Dukat]

A game of skill being anything that involves skill more than it involves chance.

....

A game of skill is a game where the outcome is determined mainly by mental and/or physical skill, rather than by pure chance.

Sorry, was meaning a game of skill as in anything where skill has more of an impact than "pure luck".

Every one knows of times when people are lucky, whether its on CS or in a football game, but I'm talking about where, 8/9 times out of 10, skill is the most important factor.

If skill didnt matter in football why would clubs spend £10 million on a player they class as good? Half of everything may well be luck, but percentage of the other half of what decides the outcome will vary.

Yes, there might be an element of skill in alot of games, but I'm talking more about the ones where skill is the more important thing. Chess would be the best example I guess, but then there are the online games such as CS, things like archery.

Basically not things like the 2p machines at blackpool, things where you either mental/physical dexterity more often than not decides the game.

I rate them as fairly important, as it said in that wiki article, "they are a means of exploring one's own capabilities". To me this seems like an very worthwhile thing to be doing.

 

[Celestino]

#1 I think its kinda simple, a game that does not earn you money can never be more than a fun game. You cannot explore ur capabilities without pushing towards them, without training, without investing a lot of time.
Take Archery, I guess to be a good archer u need to have some sort of feeling for the bow, a basic understanding of math and physics, dexterity, a calm mind, a good eye and probably a enough other skills.
Archery on a fun level allows you to gain and improve those skills...
but getting into it, spending lots and lots of time with the bow just to perfect those skills and pushing towards ur personal boundary will most likely not help you in ur office job, or having a social life or ur life in general.
So why push beyond fun level ?



#2 They pay shitloads of cash for players coz the whole market is overpriced due to huge appeal football has to the average male consumer while showing maleflesh to the rest. Its not "£10 million on a player they class as good", its £10 million on a player that might win us an additional game per season, while drawing more ppl into the stadium and more money in from sponsors due to his popularity.

 

[Bracken]

Please don't put counterstrike in the same category as football - everytime someone tries to compare a computer game to a physical sport God kills a kitten

The general level of importance of any "game of skill" is determined, like so many things in life, by the amount of money involved. Hence football matters

 

[Marc]

Skill = The ability to bring about a predertemined result with the minimum of time, effort or both.

This is what we were taught anyway

 

[Gamah]

Please don't put counterstrike in the same category as football - everytime someone tries to compare a computer game to a physical sport God kills a kitten

The general level of importance of any "game of skill" is determined, like so many things in life, by the amount of money involved. Hence football matters

Biggest pile of crap I have ever read.

 

[tris-]

Discuss!

games of 'apparent' skill usually make you feel happier when you win and give a level of achievement imo.
games that are born of luck, like snap, gives fun but not the other feeling you get when you win from skill.

id also like to throw this into the works.
can skill exist in a world where things are pre-determined?

(not saying everything is pre-determined, but i personally believe it is)

 

[Blackjack]

Game of skill, such as football. Is about practice, the pursuit to minimize lucks factor in the equation. Everytime you dribble and try to round a player. The dice of life is rolled, your dribbling skills, vs your oponents skill of tackling + luck factor for a stroke of luck for either player. such as; slipping on the grass, bump in the field, getting tackled but still getting it past him etc.
No matter how good you get at anything. Luck ALWAYS has a factor, a skill game is where it's not the determining factor for the outcome 9 times out of 10.
A lesser team can pull out a win with luck. It's just that powerfull. Have no luck... you better pray your opponent has none too.

 

[Bracken]

Biggest pile of crap I have ever read.

Yeah because computer games matter

Consequence of a team winning a title, getting relegated and the like? Millions of pounds of gained or lost revenue. Just 1 place up or down in the Prem is worth £500k. Consequence of losing in a computer game? Apart from your willy getting fractionally smaller, nothing.

F*cking idiotic in the extreme to believe anything else.

 

[tris-]

Consequence of losing in a computer game? Apart from your willy getting fractionally smaller, nothing.

so this is why i have a maggot dick?

and i thought it was genetics, phew.

 

[Bracken]

so this is why i have a maggot dick?

and i thought it was genetics, phew.

Mine's almost all gone too

 

[Azurus]

I agree with Gamah skill has nothing to do with how much money is involved.

 

[old.Tohtori]

People don't pay footballers because they have more skills then a counterstrike player.

In their own fields, top players are top players.

People pay money to footballers, because there's money to be made in football. Fans, people who like to watch it. It's popular.

If counterstrike was as popular and sponsored(which comes with popularity) then the best counterstrike matches would be worth millions too.

Skill, is determined on how good you are at something.

People say poker is just luck, but it's not, because if it was then the everyone could be a millionaire top player.

 

[tris-]

People say poker is just luck, but it's not, because if it was then the everyone could be a millionaire top player.

suppose that depends on what governs how much luck someone has.

 

[cHodAX]

There is an large element of luck in poker but the skill comes in when you have have to know how to play your hand to win. Also knowing how to read other people, that is an skill that very few people have and can use well.

 

[Morchaoron]

Please don't put counterstrike in the same category as football - everytime someone tries to compare a computer game to a physical sport God kills a kitten

The general level of importance of any "game of skill" is determined, like so many things in life, by the amount of money involved. Hence football matters

It only matters to the people who are on the field making money out of it, everyone else involved but not playing are not participating in the game anyway so does not add to the level of importance of the 'game of skill'

And yes, you can compare a soccer match with paid players with a tournament counterstrike match where the #1 prize is 30.000 quid...
football is a physically demanding game of skill, counterstrike mentally demanding game of sikll (but both still have random factors ofcourse)

 

[dub]

poker only works if you play about money , othervise its downright one of the worlds most boring games , and the element of skill is very small.

try bridge instead if you want a challenge

 

[Bracken]

It only matters to the people who are on the field making money out of it, everyone else involved but not playing are not participating in the game anyway so does not add to the level of importance of the 'game of skill'

The millions of people who have invested thousands of pounds over a life time following their team mean that football is far important than some f*cking computer game.

The only investment you've made is the £30 when you bought it and the time spent playing it (a few years at most). This does not compare in the slightest to the personal investment people put into football.

And yes, you can compare a soccer match with paid players with a tournament counterstrike match where the #1 prize is 30.000 quid...
football is a physically demanding game of skill, counterstrike mentally demanding game of sikll (but both still have random factors ofcourse)

How many people does that £30,000 prize affect? 1. The winner. How many people are involved in the football industry who's livelihood depends on success or failure of the team they are involved with? Millions.

Really is astonishing that people actually believe that a poxy computer game holds any importance whatsoever compared to multi-billion pound sports. Actually, it's not astonishing on here given the mentality of the average FH user.

 

[tris-]

The only investment you've made is the £30 when you bought it and the time spent playing it (a few years at most). This does not compare in the slightest to the personal investment people put into football.

what about the thousands of pounds people spend on their PC to try give them an edge?

 

[Imgormiel]

Why has no one mentioned the board game Go? It's infinitely more complex than chess will ever be and it was the first board game invented by man - the Chinese iirc. If you want leet skill board games with nice complexities made to look simple then learn to play Go!

 

[Dukat]

The millions of people who have invested thousands of pounds over a life time following their team mean that football is far important than some f*cking computer game.

The only investment you've made is the £30 when you bought it and the time spent playing it (a few years at most). This does not compare in the slightest to the personal investment people put into football.

How many people does that £30,000 prize affect? 1. The winner. How many people are involved in the football industry who's livelihood depends on success or failure of the team they are involved with? Millions.

Really is astonishing that people actually believe that a poxy computer game holds any importance whatsoever compared to multi-billion pound sports. Actually, it's not astonishing on here given the mentality of the average FH user.

Bracken I'm sorry but I think you're being increadably small minded here.

Computer games matter to many people. In Korea it is a big sport with many followers - kids look up to starcraft players over there, people spend money on tickets to go see people play in big games. Just because the same cannot be said over here yet doesnt mean that computer games do not matter as much in the context we are discussing.

You can compare a public match of CS to a kickabout at the park - neither are for much more than practice/fun. The premier league here could be compared to the matches in korea where people spend big money on advertising on the "sport".

Football is a well represented sport here, more so than online gaming, but this doesnt change the fact that skill plays an very similar part in both.

The levels of money are different, but if you compare the korean sport of gaming to the british sport of football you may well find more paralells and similarities that you would think.

To compare the average gamer playing counter strike, or even a tournament with the paltry prize of 30k to the premier leage is like comparing the Korean stars of gaming to the average highschooler playing football at the park with his mates.

Even if all of this wasnt the case, even if you only compare the sports of online gaming and football by thier current "status" in the UK, it doesnt make any difference to the fact.. FACT that football and counterstrike are very similar in thier requirement for skill to win. I dont see how anyone can dispute this, its not like we're comparing football and rock paper scissors here, which seems to be what you are trying to suggest.

 

[Morchaoron]

The millions of people who have invested thousands of pounds over a life time following their team mean that football is far important than some f*cking computer game.

The only investment you've made is the £30 when you bought it and the time spent playing it (a few years at most). This does not compare in the slightest to the personal investment people put into football.

watching or investing in football is not a game of skill, thus cannot be important to people 'game of skill' wise...

there is a difference between playing a game and just watching it

How many people does that £30,000 prize affect? 1. The winner. How many people are involved in the football industry who's livelihood depends on success or failure of the team they are involved with? Millions.

Really is astonishing that people actually believe that a poxy computer game holds any importance whatsoever compared to multi-billion pound sports. Actually, it's not astonishing on here given the mentality of the average FH user.

No, because i was not talking about the industry, just the 'game of skill' itself
And all those people involved who make a living out of it dont give a fuck about the game itself since it is a money question....
If you made a living out of a sport without participating in it itself, would you care about what kind of sport it was if you're wallet depended on it?

What i did say that the FEAT itself can be compared: 2 teams 'fighting' it out on a game of skill, where both have spend alot of time to become masters in their own arena

 

[Morchaoron]

And in fact, every soccer player has MORE in common with a gamer (both actually give ACTIVE input the game they play) then those sitting on a couch in front of the television sucking up information (passively) about whats going on...

because some people seem to think that PLAYING a game = WATCHING a game...

Video games let all people participate in the game (that is, everyone involved in that kind of entertainment, and all get the same arena)

 

[Marc]

Counterstrike requires hand eye coordination. Big deal, even a monkey can learn that. Football requires a hell of a lot more attributes than any computer game ever will.

 

[Morchaoron]

Counterstrike requires hand eye coordination. Big deal, even a monkey can learn that. Football requires a hell of a lot more attributes than any computer game ever will.

its involves more then hand eye coordination, you can also teach a monkey to run behind a ball and kick it, but both take years to master, its just that there isnt much reason yet for video games to truly 'master' them , but some of those who did are incredible in their arena (depends on the game ofcourse)

 

[Marc]

its involves more then hand eye coordination, you can also teach a monkey to run behind a ball and kick it, but both take years to master, its just that there isnt much reason yet for video games to truly 'master' them , but some of those who did are incredible in their arena (depends on the game ofcourse)

So are you saying there are just as many skillful attributes required to be a footballer as there is to be a computer games player?

I do agree that computer games do have a certain degree of skill involved, but no where near the different skills to be a top class footballer

 

[tris-]

So are you saying there are just as many skillful attributes required to be a footballer as there is to be a computer games player?

im not sure its possible to compare the two against each other.

its like saying is a tennis player as skillful as a rugby player etc.

different sports and all that.

 

[Ctuchik]

its really all about making the right choises and hoping the opponent doesent make a better one. theres no "luck" in any "game of skill"

/edit: hmm, that would have been lucky for the one that made the better choise huh? owell, was worth a shot lol