How important are "games of skill"?

[Marc]

its really all about making the right choises and hoping the opponent doesent make a better one. theres no "luck" in any "game of skill"

/edit: hmm, that would have been lucky for the one that made the better choise huh? owell, was worth a shot lol

But is it not "luck" if the other person doesnt make a better choice than you?

/edit, saw your sneaky edit at the bottom after I posted!

 

[Marc]

im not sure its possible to compare the two against each other.

its like saying is a tennis player as skillful as a rugby player etc.

different sports and all that.

I think im kinda losing my train of thought here. Im comparing skillfull attributes between the 2, which ofc a footballer will need twice as many if not more than a computer games player, but I dont see what relevence that has to the discussion at hand so just ignore me

 

[tris-]

I think im kinda losing my train of thought here. Im comparing skillfull attributes between the 2, which ofc a footballer will need twice as many if not more than a computer games player, but I dont see what relevence that has to the discussion at hand so just ignore me

i think you can only compare that in its own field.

in football, the player who goes to the world cup is more skillful than all the other players (or wed hope so at least). so in their sport, the guy has more 'attributes' than everyone else.

in video games, who ever is number one is more skillful than the other people playing it. so he has more of those 'attributes' than others.

the gamer will be better at games than the footballer and vice versa.
so i guess its all just relative to what your field is.

 

[Morchaoron]

So are you saying there are just as many skillful attributes required to be a footballer as there is to be a computer games player?

different attributes, more physical, less mental, which is only logical because the things you do and limitations are completely different...

I do agree that computer games do have a certain degree of skill involved, but no where near the different skills to be a top class footballer

that is simply impossible to tell, because no one can really judge how difficult it is to TRULY master one thing compared to another in a different game...

Take hand-slapping, ofcourse you can say: "yeah but that game has just one attribute and a monkey can do it", true, but try to winning it from a guy who has spend all his time in mastering that single attribute

 

[Bracken]

what about the thousands of pounds people spend on their PC to try give them an edge?

Thousands of pounds getting an edge for 1 game? Don't exaggerate.

Incidentally, if basic hand/eye co-ordination means that a "game" is both skillfull and important then it's surely only a matter of time before wanking becomes an Olympic sport?

I guess trying to get the average contributor to a gaming forum to understand that doing well in a computer game really doesn't matter (except perhaps in some corner of Korea which I have no knowledge of) is only slightly less stupid than poking my eyes out with a hot iron. All I can say is come back in 10 years and tell me that how you do in Counterstrike matters. If you're still saying the same thing then I'll run naked through Birmingham Bull Ring.

 

[Morchaoron]

I think im kinda losing my train of thought here. Im comparing skillfull attributes between the 2, which ofc a footballer will need twice as many if not more than a computer games player

even if that is the case, both make completely different use of these attributes, which still means nothing...

 

[tris-]

Thousands of pounds getting an edge for 1 game? Don't exaggerate.

im not exagertating.

dont you realise how much the best CPU, graphics, low latency memory, uber mouse, keyboard etc cost?

add to that these type of people upgrade the instant something better is out, its gonna rack up some £££.

being good at CS matters for people, like people who make a living from it. competing in tournys, getting sponsors. not just in korea but in america, europe etc.
people make a living from playing video games, not millions but more than some people might earn.

i could just as easily say being good at football doesnt matter, being good at golf doesnt matter.
all the people do is earn money competitively, whats so good about that?

 

[Morchaoron]

I guess trying to get the average contributor to a gaming forum to understand that doing well in a computer game really doesn't matter (except perhaps in some corner of Korea which I have no knowledge of) is only slightly less stupid than poking my eyes out with a hot iron. All I can say is come back in 10 years and tell me that how you do in Counterstrike matters. If you're still saying the same thing then I'll run naked through Birmingham Bull Ring.

important in what kind of way are you talking about anyway? making money for a living? for the industry? personal entertainment? personal improvement?

 

[Bracken]

important in what kind of way are you talking about anyway?

Either in a personal sense (i.e. you sat in your home playing a computer game) or from a business sense (although I'll concede there are may be some people who make their living from computer game competitions and to them it would matter). The other thing I would concede is that there is no difference from say a Sunday footballer losing in an amateur game to an individual losing in a computer game (in that neither has any consequence), but that is the extent of the similarity. Beyond that there is simply no comparison.

 

[Ctuchik]

But is it not "luck" if the other person doesnt make a better choice than you?

/edit, saw your sneaky edit at the bottom after I posted!

yeah, my edit skills rocks!

 

[Morchaoron]

Either in a personal sense (i.e. you sat in your home playing a computer game) or from a business sense (although I'll concede there are may be some people who make their living from computer game competitions and to them it would matter). The other thing I would concede is that there is no difference from say a Sunday footballer losing in an amateur game to an individual losing in a computer game (in that neither has any consequence), but that is the extent of the similarity. Beyond that there is simply no comparison.

sure there can be comparison, it just depends on what aspect you want to compare, since it is too broad to compare in general...

 

[Marc]

different attributes, more physical, less mental, which is only logical because the things you do and limitations are completely different...


that is simply impossible to tell, because no one can really judge how difficult it is to TRULY master one thing compared to another in a different game...

Take hand-slapping, ofcourse you can say: "yeah but that game has just one attribute and a monkey can do it", true, but try to winning it from a guy who has spend all his time in mastering that single attribute

There is no chance that football requires less mental attributes than a computer game does. No way at all.

 

[Morchaoron]

There is no chance that football requires less mental attributes than a computer game does. No way at all.

the usefulness/development of the mental attributes is greatly based on the limitations of the physical involved...

 

[Eleasias]

Thousands of pounds getting an edge for 1 game? Don't exaggerate.

Incidentally, if basic hand/eye co-ordination means that a "game" is both skillfull and important then it's surely only a matter of time before wanking becomes an Olympic sport?

I guess trying to get the average contributor to a gaming forum to understand that doing well in a computer game really doesn't matter (except perhaps in some corner of Korea which I have no knowledge of) is only slightly less stupid than poking my eyes out with a hot iron. All I can say is come back in 10 years and tell me that how you do in Counterstrike matters. If you're still saying the same thing then I'll run naked through Birmingham Bull Ring.

You are an ignorant fool mate, there are loads of people who make money just by playing games, sponsorship deals, etc. e-sports as it is called is only getting bigger by the day and in 10 years it will matter even more, in Korea Starcraft players are superstars and watching Starcraft from TV is an everyday occurance, US is heading the same way with events getting nationwide coverage in the future and prize pools gettnig bigger, you're a fool for saying it doesnt matter when some people make 100k$+ a year just from giving their q3 nick to brand a hardware series from Creative... Is it as big as football? No, but that wasnt even what the discussion was about.

 

[Eleasias]

Either in a personal sense (i.e. you sat in your home playing a computer game) or from a business sense (although I'll concede there are may be some people who make their living from computer game competitions and to them it would matter). The other thing I would concede is that there is no difference from say a Sunday footballer losing in an amateur game to an individual losing in a computer game (in that neither has any consequence), but that is the extent of the similarity. Beyond that there is simply no comparison.

How does it differ on a professional level really? I'm not gonna argue which one takes more skill or whatever, but both teams/players have to practise full time and be the best of their 'sport' to win the big tournaments.

Yeah in your example it doesnt matter in either of the cases, you lose a fun game big deal, it doesnt matter. But if you get really good at football or counter-strike, you can make loads of money out of it, get famous etc and then it DOES matter.

 

[megadave]

What the fuck does the fact the football is a massive and lucrative industry have to do with the fact that it may or may require more skill to play than a computer game? You're having a fat rant/argument about shit.

 

[Bugz]

WTF Bracken? There is no correlation between money & skill. You're incredibly ignorant to think such a thing.

 

[[NO]Subedai]

Warhammer 40k is a game of skill and luck.

You Roll dice throughout the whole game based on the decisions (skill) that you make, ofc u culd roll all ones or all sixes so there is luck in that. But the skill will usually balance it out. For example at warhammer 40k ive never ever lost a game, (32wins) due to superior tactics and skill compared to my oppoments, even with bad luck the skill can usually weigh through.

 

[Bracken]

You are an ignorant fool mate

You have demonstrated many times you have no understanding of how the real world works. Maybe it's an age thing, having a mortgage, working in different environments, I don't know. But at some point you'll wake up from this little fantasy that how you do in a computer game matters.

Megadave,

The title of the thread was how important are games of skill. I've compared 2 different games of skill that were mentioned, football and counterstrike and their relative importance. One is important for a whole host of reasons, the other isn't (except for people who actually make a living out of it, which is comparitively very small). Like I said, f*cking stupid on my part trying to get this through to some of the people on FH.

 

[Eleasias]

You have demonstrated many times you have no understanding of how the real world works. Maybe it's an age thing, having a mortgage, working in different environments, I don't know. But at some point you'll wake up from this little fantasy that how you do in a computer game matters.

Megadave,

The title of the thread was how important are games of skill. I've compared 2 different games of skill that were mentioned, football and counterstrike and their relative importance. One is important for a whole host of reasons, the other isn't (except for people who actually make a living out of it, which is comparitively very small). Like I said, f*cking stupid on my part trying to get this through to some of the people on FH.

yeah way to go, personal insults instead of answering what i wrote, how unexpected. do the games that people play for fun matter? no, but the games people play for money do matter, and if you play a game that has a big market (starcraft, counter-strike, etc.) then even the practise games matter if you're a person aiming to go pro D) in your chosen game. Then it does matter even if you arent making money at the moment. It's like playing football before you get into a big team / start getting paid. Can you tell me for example why playing football for fun during the afternoon is more important as a game of skill than playing counterstrike for example? Can you tell me why betting on a football game is more important than betting on a counterstrike game? Can you tell me why cheering for a football team if more important than cheering for a counterstrike team?

you completely fail to grasp the idea of relativity, some people do not care about football at all while they care about other games, money or no money involved.

as for the topic at hand i think testing and bettering yourself in whatever you decide to do is important

 

[Marc]

yeah way to go, personal insults instead of answering what i wrote, how unexpected. do the games that people play for fun matter? no, but the games people play for money do matter, and if you play a game that has a big market (starcraft, counter-strike, etc.) then even the practise games matter if you're a person aiming to go pro D) in your chosen game. Then it does matter even if you arent making money at the moment. It's like playing football before you get into a big team / start getting paid. Can you tell me for example why playing football for fun during the afternoon is more important as a game of skill than playing counterstrike for example? Can you tell me why betting on a football game is more important than betting on a counterstrike game? Can you tell me why cheering for a football team if more important than cheering for a counterstrike team?

lol Eleasias talking about personal insults. The guy whos made a name for himself by ways of personal insults. Anyway.....

So we have established that both Football and CS are games of skill. Ok, now we are trying to establish which one is more important and people actually believe CS is just as important as football. Get fucking real. One brings in millions of taxes for the government, gives hundreds of thousands of people jobs, gives millions something to watch, keeps people fit and active, gives young people an aim and ambition in life etc I could go on. The other, erm, is a computer game?

Yes, to a CS fan, CS is more important than football, but in the whole scheme of things, it isnt.

 

[Ctuchik]

lol Eleasias talking about personal insults. The guy whos made a name for himself by ways of personal insults. Anyway.....

So we have established that both Football and CS are games of skill. Ok, now we are trying to establish which one is more important and people actually believe CS is just as important as football. Get fucking real. One brings in millions of taxes for the government, gives hundreds of thousands of people jobs, gives millions something to watch, keeps people fit and active, gives young people an aim and ambition in life etc I could go on. The other, erm, is a computer game?

Yes, to a CS fan, CS is more important than football, but in the whole scheme of things, it isnt.

CS is not a game of skill, there all that matters is to have the most uberest of aimbots and the newest wall hack >.<

 

[Dukat]

So we have established that both Football and CS are games of skill. Ok, now we are trying to establish which one is more important and people actually believe CS is just as important as football. Get fucking real. One brings in millions of taxes for the government, gives hundreds of thousands of people jobs, gives millions something to watch, keeps people fit and active, gives young people an aim and ambition in life etc I could go on. The other, erm, is a computer game?

I think the problem is that by "more important" people mean different things.

Sure, to the country as a whole, football is probably more important. However, the context in which I was trying to pose the question was one of personal development and benefits from playing the game and being good at the game.

Not so much the money involved, or how important it is to people who dont actually play the game.

Sure, to the supporters and sponsors of a football club, the performance that club will be a matter of great import. But what I'm trying to say is more:

How important are games of skill when it comes to the development of a person's character.

Meaning, someone who plays football or rugby alot will gain benefits from playing the game, not so much physical as mental - being outside and taking part in a group activity, being competitive, etc.

What I was trying to say is that games of skill - including but not limited to certain online games - can play an important role in how the personality of a person grows.

Like marc has said "The other, erm, is a computer game?". I was trying to point out that to alot of people computer games(and more revelently: other games of skill) form a larger part of thier life. I'm not saying they cry every time they lose a CS match. I mean that they gain benefits from playing the game that alot of people overlook because its "just a computer game". Obviously its not as social as a sport like football or rugby and so it will lack in that respect, but it can be just as competitive and demanding in terms of skill.

I was just trying to pose the question that perhaps games of skill that people class as "just good fun", like chess and computer games, can be important in terms of the types of skills they help bring out and develop in people without them really thinking about it.

I dont know why this discussion is getting heated though - everyone has thier own opinions and its a given that in any discussion you will find someone who you disagree with, in the same way as I disagree with bracken, I'm not going to start threatening his pet hamster just because we differ in our views when it comes to how important games are Chill!

 

[old.Tohtori]

You wouldn't have had this discussion/argument at all if you hadn't mentioned soccer on THESE forums.

There's a few good socccer loonies here that'll defend it even if the question is "Would you kill football or australia"

 

[Dukat]

You wouldn't have had this discussion/argument at all if you hadn't mentioned soccer on THESE forums.

There's a few good socccer loonies here that'll defend it even if the question is "Would you kill football or australia"

rofl

I thought mentioning it as a game of skill (eg. putting it in a positive context) would help, evidently I was wrong!

Dont know why there has to be this "football good, computer games shit" mentality though, I can really enjoy computer games without dissing football, even if I dont really like the game.

For someone to say "FOOTBALL IS MY LIFE!" is a socially acceptable term, to say "COMPUTER GAMES ARE MY LIFE!" is like admitting you have leprosy or something, kinda annoying :\

Even more annoying is the fact that I wasnt really talking about computer games vs football at all, I used cs and football as examples, and ended up starting something unrelated :x