Hero RvR/PvE Spec....

[Qaewin]

Sorry Q, but this is just false.

Don't be sorry, if i'm wrong i'm wrong

I assumed it worked like this as in the description of MoB it says an extra 3% chance to block per level of this ability. As you would block more with 50 shield than you would with 42 the 3% increase chance to block with 50 is more than the 3% chance to block at 42. I assumed that the ws of the attacker was measured up against your 'shield skill' when decideing whether a blow would land or not therefore haveing 50 would be better than 42.
What I haven't assumed though is when I was 50 + 15 shield I blocked noticeably more than when I was 42 + 16 + MoB2.

 

[Arlone]

Dunno how you could find that. 42-50 shield makes 4% difference = around one level of MoB. I block/slam fine (tested against high rr well sc'ed opponenents many times, they are often amazed at how well I slam). Slamming is more dependant on your dex skill, perhaps you had crap SCing & your realm rank was very low when you hit 50? Thats the only thing that would make that big a difference. Many tanks better than me have hit higher rr with 42 shield.

Been a while since I checked this thread so late response inc

What you write is correct and I agree so far but you seem to think the calcs for hit/block/miss is basically that easy? I dont. Many more things factor in to a successfull block/slam such as weaponskill compared to the weaponskill of the person hitting me (or trying to hit me). With 42 shield the "hidden" shield-WS will be lower than many tanks primary WS .. thus resulting in far less blocks. Same thing with slam. At 42 I had trouble slamming other tanks and I suspect it was due to a bit too low shield-WS.

Dex is obviously also important as it raises WS even further but I was on 360 dex when I had 42 shield too.

This is what I belive anyway. Feel free to prove me wrong - I really want to know how combatcalcs are done. But it's much more diffrance than 4% between 42 and 50 shield ... as many others have said here aswell.

 

[Reno]

Shield weapon skill ( chance to hit with your shield) is dependant on 2 things, dex and main weapon spec. Whether the main weapon spec is limited to your 1 handed weapon spec, or also includes your 2h weapon spec hasn't been proven/tested conclusively, but most tend to think it includes 2 h spec.
Shield spec only increases damage with shield attacks and your chance to block.
Both the effects of 1h weapon spec on chance to hit with shield and the effects of shield spec on damage/blocking have been tested on Vnboard, Albion fighter section. You might have to dig deep to find them though.

Danita

 

[Arlone]

Shield weapon skill ( chance to hit with your shield) is dependant on 2 things, dex and main weapon spec. Whether the main weapon spec is limited to your 1 handed weapon spec, or also includes your 2h weapon spec hasn't been proven/tested conclusively, but most tend to think it includes 2 h spec.
Shield spec only increases damage with shield attacks and your chance to block.
Both the effects of 1h weapon spec on chance to hit with shield and the effects of shield spec on damage/blocking have been tested on Vnboard, Albion fighter section. You might have to dig deep to find them though.

Danita

According to a Grab-bag on camelotherald and my own experience this is wrong. Shield got it's on weaponskill althought you can't see it like you can with the offensive WS's. People with 7 in pierce/blades have reported to slam just as well as people with 50 pierce/blades...

I've read all those posts too but they state no facts tbh.


From Grab Bags:

http://www.camelotherald.com/more/830.shtml
Q: When using a shield related combat style (Slam, Brutalize, etc), does the game use your current slash/thrust/crush weapon skill as its base (as shown on your character info screen) OR is there a 'hidden' Shield weapon skill not shown on your character info screen (based on STR? & Shield Spec) that it uses instead?

A: It uses your shield skill - which is based on both your specialization level and dexterity.

---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.camelotherald.com/more/453.shtml

Q: How do blocking and parrying work?

A: Both of these skills use dexterity, and the quality of your shield/weapon, to create a numerical value. That value is compared to your opponent’s weapon skill value to determine your chances to block or parry. If the numbers are equal, your base chance is determined entirely by your skill level.

 

[Reno]

Sorry but the grab bag is wrong.
Shield weapon skill ( or the chance to bypass guard/evade/parry/block) is determined by the height of your main weapon skill and your dexterity score. The level to which you spec your shield has nothing to do with increasing your chances to bypass guard/evade/parry/block.
The test: http://vnboards.ign.com/Albion_Fighter_Professions/b20902/69102893/?7

The only thing open for debate is whether the weapon spec used to determine shield weaponskill includes 2 hander skill or not.

Danita

 

[Boni]

What you write is correct and I agree so far but you seem to think the calcs for hit/block/miss is basically that easy? I dont. Many more things factor in to a successfull block/slam such as weaponskill compared to the weaponskill of the person hitting me (or trying to hit me). With 42 shield the "hidden" shield-WS will be lower than many tanks primary WS .. thus resulting in far less blocks. Same thing with slam. At 42 I had trouble slamming other tanks and I suspect it was due to a bit too low shield-WS.

Im not sure if the calcs are that easy, but there should be a figure for how much better a 50spec can block compared to a 42 spec (lets say given ideal conditions, both full SC'ed, rrX, attacker has 50 weaponskill etc). According to a few other threads this is around 0.5% per spec point in this range, according to hib tanks its much higher. Whatever it is I really want to know, so I can make an informed choice about RA's and respecs, and what I tell people who ask me for advice..

Your probably right on the 42 shield skill having less weaponskill than a 50 mainweapon opponent. But.. with master of blocking this might not be so bad ,depends where its factored in. Also interesting is that you are comparing weaponskill's and deciding on a cutoff where you get a bonus if your somethingskill is higher than theirs, does this exist? It works like that with spells, not so sure about melee...

 

[Garax]

so I can make an informed choice about RA's and respecs, and what I tell people who ask me for advice..

Boni, it's not like your skint or anything, get 2 stones (incase you don't like 50 shield) and try it out for yourself, stats are all well and good, but nothing like the litmus test to know for sure one way or the other. Then at least you can say you tried it and can let people know from personal expeirience which is better.

 

[Arlone]

Im not sure if the calcs are that easy, but there should be a figure for how much better a 50spec can block compared to a 42 spec (lets say given ideal conditions, both full SC'ed, rrX, attacker has 50 weaponskill etc). According to a few other threads this is around 0.5% per spec point in this range, according to hib tanks its much higher. Whatever it is I really want to know, so I can make an informed choice about RA's and respecs, and what I tell people who ask me for advice..

Your probably right on the 42 shield skill having less weaponskill than a 50 mainweapon opponent. But.. with master of blocking this might not be so bad ,depends where its factored in. Also interesting is that you are comparing weaponskill's and deciding on a cutoff where you get a bonus if your somethingskill is higher than theirs, does this exist? It works like that with spells, not so sure about melee...

I sent a feedback/question to mythic regarding our discussion and asked them to once and for all put an end to all this speculating. I gave them the "42 compared to 50 specc"-example (if it's 4% increase or if other things, like shield WS vs. opponent WS factors in). Hopefully they will see fit to include it in a grab bag .. sometime.

Sorry but the grab bag is wrong.
Shield weapon skill ( or the chance to bypass guard/evade/parry/block) is determined by the height of your main weapon skill and your dexterity score. The level to which you spec your shield has nothing to do with increasing your chances to bypass guard/evade/parry/block.
The test: http://vnboards.ign.com/Albion_Figh...902/69102893/?7

The only thing open for debate is whether the weapon spec used to determine shield weaponskill includes 2 hander skill or not.

Danita

So I got one pala vs. reaver test, one statement from mythic and to top it off my own "test" to make me even more confused - all claiming diffrent things.

First specc: 42 shield, 39 pierce, 50 LW
Result: hard time slammming (2-3 tries was not uncommon), useless guard in RvR

Second specc: 50 shield, 24(ish) pierce, 50 LW
Result: Land slam on first try nearly every time. Usefull guard that actually blocks.

Concusion: Raising shield 8 points and decreasing 1h-specc with 15 points made wonders for my lil hero.

Obviously this is not very good "testdata". But I wouldn't make a decision after that pala vs. reaver test either. I only know what I have seen for myself and that is that there is a huge bump in shield effectivness when going from 42 to 50.

I dont know the exact formula, and I dont claim too. But then again .. who does? It's all guessing - specially without more/better testing.

 

[Pin]

Simplistically:

[chance to block] = [base chance to block]*[dexterity modifier]/[opponent's weaponskill]

where,
[base chance to block] is the combination of shield spec, +shield, +rr and MoBlock,
[dexterity modifier] is a constant, based on your dex,
[opponent's weaponskill] is the weaponskill of the guy smacking your shield.
(it is then further modified - read divided again - based on number of attackers and if opponent is dual-wielding)

There is no direct comparison made spec vs spec, (no cutoff if he is specced higher than you, etc).

If you want actual numbers, go test

 

[Boni]

Thanks for all the replies Ill have to go test this myself. I wanted to get as much info as possible before respeccing so I can design appropriate tests.

Not sure excatly how to test this perfectly (which is why I havent so far..), I assume that blocking for yourself is a different calculation than blocking someone else? If they are the same its so much easier, else im gonna need some kinda sneaky cross-realm dueling to get my answers?

I could test guarding a squishy in pve vs a red or purple mob, would that be an acceptable test?

 

[Reno]

Blocking for yourself or gaurding won't be the same, or having guard 1-3 would be useless.
However to obtain a reliable sample of hits/blocks you'd need to defend against at least 500 hits. If the mob or you/guardee expires before the sample is taken, you might nullify the test if the next mob isn't the same lvl.
You could always check with a menta to see if the mobs lvl is the same ofc.

Danita

 

[Tsabo]

OK, after playing my Hero for a lil at low lvl I'm gonna change to 50 Sheild 50 LW 28 Blades 6 Parry...

Every grp I have been in so far has had some form of PBAE damage from a caster and I just been Guarding and tryin to hold agro.

Thanks for all who have posted here, has all been alot of help

 

[Z^^]

primary sPEC ML5 baTTLEMASTER rest is secondary... for rvr that is xDD