Hebrew word for disproportionate?

[rynnor]

They dont have one...

So for the capture of 2 soldiers they kill 200 civilians - sure neither side is whiter than white but what exactly is Israel going to achieve by its current policy?

Iran is backing Hesbollah just as the US is backing Israel - by killing hundreds of civilians Israel is becoming hesbollah's best recruiter - Hesbollah have far more advanced weaponry than Israel faced in the Gaza strip - the harder Israel come down the worse it will be for them in the long run.

At this point in Israels history it should be seeking a long term peace with its neighbours not perpetuating the cycle of violence.

For one thing it puts the moderate arab states under pressure to act against them which causes unrest in those countries whilst simultaneously strengthening the position of the extremists who preach hatred of Israel.

Its all so bloody stupid - and if anyone believes the UN was ever a real force in International politics that lie is shown up for all to see...

 

[Ch3tan]

Israel enjoys to much freedom from the US to do what it likes, and has been given the military tech to back up that freedom. The surrounding Arab countries, no matter how well backed are never going to meet the military strength Isreal has. Also Israli politicians are too weak to do anything but cave to public pressure and always chose military action. Both sides should take some time to actually study their religions and realise that they are not simply about vengence and death.

On the flip side, Lebanon is paying for a situation instigated years ago by Syria and will suffer badly whatever happens.

This is a discussion that needs Perplex.

 

[rynnor]

Israel enjoys to much freedom from the US to do what it likes, and has been given the military tech to back up that freedom. The surrounding Arab countries, no matter how well backed are never going to meet the military strength Isreal has.

Its stupid though - no-ones going to give open battle to the Israelis so their advantage in tech is meaningless - all they can do is kill civilians whilst hesbollah can stage guerilla style raids with medium range missiles for years to come - does Israel really believe killing tons of civilians will make the general populace stop supporting them?

If you look at Gaza oppression only makes the resistance more popular than ever...

 

[Furr]

Its all a bit out of hand, however its obvious that Iran and Syria are involved. The BBC seems to be heavily bias towards an anti-Israeli stance, well thats what I now believe after watching one of their report today when all it contained was BBC reports saying "look at these children running for their lives" and interviewing a lebanese woman saying "we are defending out rights etc" trying to justify the Hizbollah(sic) going into Israeli territory killing eight soliders and kidnapping two, with not a single Israeli point of view at all. I try to balance it with some CNN, Sky News and for a laugh Fox News.

What are Israel meant to do exactly?

So Israel have given an inch in withdrawing from palestianian land and lebanon in return they have gotten the following.

The election of a terrorist organisation to palestian goverment that refuses to recognise Israels right to exist. Rockets attacks from Gaza, bombings, Invasion into their land and Soliders being kidnapped. Yes Israel has been heavy handed but since its existance they have been attacked and are surrounded by a region that wants to detroy them.

Additonally if Israel really wanted, it could destroy Hamas and Hizbollah in a week, it would however inflict massive civilian casualities and would probably have the toothless UN saying "warcrimes, warcrimes". And what are you meant to do with an organisation that hides weapons in hospitals and houses, surrounds its operations with women and children. Its an either them or us situation. And Israel is not going to let it be them. Also if its true that Hizbollah have 13000 rockets as they claim, plus these shore to ship missles using the infrastructe of lebabon such as the radar in the ports and airports to launch them, you have to take that infastructure out, make it hard for the enemy to move, and its looks like Hizbollah have been planning to attack israel for a long time.

All in all lebabanon is the unfortunate victim of a situation where you have syria and iran by proxy using the place as a batlefield against Israel.

Islamic fundementalists attack civilians in terrorist operations all the time. Its a scourge that has attacked targets from America, Europe and Russia to India, Malaysia and Africa and their own people in the middle east. After a while you start to ignore the voices of the moderates who say its not all muslims. From a non muslim point of view it looks as it they are a people fighting themselves and everyone else and the moderates have no voice or power.

 

[throdgrain]

I like the Israelis, they kick ass. Perplex was a dirty raghead in mufti ;p

 

[ECA]

Israel is hated by all its neighbours and I can see it getting nuked within the next century.

Since its inception Israel has only made bad choices, and its all going to end horribly.

It was a horrendous exercise in US+UK interference in the middle east :-[

 

[Furr]

Israel is hated by all its neighbours and I can see it getting nuked within the next century.

Since its inception Israel has only made bad choices, and its all going to end horribly.

It was a horrendous exercise in US+UK interference in the middle east :-[

Problem is... so do I, and you know whats going to happen.

Iran will get the bomb in 6-10 years or sooner if Pakistan becomes a failed state and its nukes are taken. Iran nukes Israelli and American intrests in the region. A few hours later a dozen or so ICBM's land in Iran and Syria Millions upon millions die.... Petrol prices Skyrocket, production collapses. World economy faulters and collapses.......



New Zealand here i come!!!

 

[Wij]

Most of what Furr said tbh. What's Isreal supposed to do ?

"Oh, I know, we'll try diplomacy again."

The BBC is horribly biased. Newsbeat on Radio 1 was full of kids in Lebanon fearing for their lives. Not a mention of Isreali kids or the mothers of the soldiers.

Nobody's saying Isreal is perfect but just a semblence of balance would be lovely.

I was going to mention left-wing anti-semitism but I realise that's the kind of cheap shot that riles me, so I won't

 

[Escape]

If Israel was held accountable for its actions, minority groups wouldn't need to rise up against it. For decades Israel has gotten away with murder and like a spoilt child, it's being encouraged by the silence of the "civilised" world.

It's ironic that Israel needs the support of racial supremacists to exist - and bloodthirsty bigots.

 

[Raven]

If it was anyone else but israel doing what they have been doing over the last ten years or so, Bush and his lap dog Blair would be falling all over themselves to get involved.

 

[Wij]

What a load of shite.

 

[Furr]

What a load of shite.

Agree's, Raven and Escape your arguments are lacking any substantial substance and just sound like you enjoy rabbling or your slightly anti-semite. Whichever. Its lucky the Israelis have America and most English speaking countries as friends as alot of the world seems to have wanted the Holocaust to succeed.

If it ever comes down to a battle of ideologies and way of life. I would rather have the Israeli Democracy and Free Market society with equal rights for men and women over an Islamic way of life. I just don't like how they live and get angry when i see how a vocal "minority" around the world are threatening the "infidels" with violence because our democratic values don't comply with their Koran

Britain during the second world war, firebombed Nazi German cities, Tortured captured POW's, shot civilians etc, we were in a corner, had been attacked, our way of life threatened by Facists, we were angry and were going to destroy Nazi germany.

Israel has been under attack from Islamofacists from its creation. From their point of view Arabs are the enemy. You would act no different if you were in their position, and they will fight with whatever is takes for their survival and will protect their own people of those of other nations who wish to harm them.

I may be accused of racism or whatever, but I was put it this way by a friend, In this country you have a couple million people from the Indian Subcontinent. Among those people you have Indian Hindus, Indian Muslims, Pakistani Muslims and Bangladeshi Muslims. They are all roughly all from the same racial group. and up to 60ish years ago the same country Yet! The 500,000 British Indian Hindus are the ones who's children do well in school, have good jobs and are widely well intergrated into British Society and have been regarded as positive influence.

However the other groups are amoung the worst performers in education, have a high crime rate, and are generally stuck in "ghettos" refusing and failing to intergrate into british society. Its gotten so bad that a recent study found that Indian Hindus are angry at being called Asian as it lumps them with the others and wish to now be called Indian or Hindu. And i have yet to see a rampaging hoard of Hindu's carrying banners glorifying more british suicide bombings and innocents civilian deaths.

And what is the major difference between these people? their religion.

Essentially what im saying is that I am tired of pretending to care for the muslim world. I make no apologies for that, and will not. If they can't sort themselves out, can't stop elements from withing their society from causing death and terrorism. Then I as far as im concerned Israel can do what its deems fit to protect itself in anyway it chooses. I won't shed a tear.

 

[JingleBells]

The problem as I see it is that the Israelis follow the Jewish tenet of "An Eye for an Eye" (taken from Exodus , and iirc thus the Torah), whilst groups like Hamas and Hezbollah (and some of the countries in the area) hold the ideal of completely destroying Israel. This pretty much leads to a stalemate, and I can't see any resolution ever happening soon without yet more bloodshed.

Personally, I'd like to encase the entire region in a big fence, stop anything getting in/out, and leave them to sort it out, preferably without any media coverage, which is anything but impartial.

 

[Raven]

Agree's, Raven and Escape your arguments are lacking any substantial substance and just sound like you enjoy rabbling or your slightly anti-semite. Whichever. Its lucky the Israelis have America and most English speaking countries as friends as alot of the world seems to have wanted the Holocaust to succeed.

this pretty much proves my point, dare to critisise israel and you get labeled anti-semetic.

 

[ECA]

I criticised Israel and didnt get labelled anti-semitic

 

[Draylor]

What a load of shite.

Only sensible post in this thread.

 

[Trem]

I criticised Israel and didnt get labelled anti-semitic

Raciallist bastid





You have always criticised Israel ECA, but compared to some of the talk in this thread you seem very balanced.

Israel has been attacked for years upon years by its neighbours, they all think that Israel belongs to them or similar such arguments(Palastein(sp) etc).

So yes you are all right, Israel should hand over their land and also bend over for some good arse fucking, yes. Mmmmmmmm.

We always see Israel did this and that from the BBC but if you delve deeper you will find its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, the headlines have always been 'ISRAEL EXPLODED INNOCENT CHILDRENS!!!!' not 'Israel retaliates for rockets launched into its city killing civillians'

I apologise for my spelling, I am still waking up and I am very hot and miserable.

 

[dysfunction]

This was a classic on TV Last night....

http://www.channel4.com/more4/news/news-opinion-feature.jsp?id=326

 

[Will]

Having read up quite a lot on the Islamist movement, and having been following the news quite a lot, both sides are wrong, and the whole situation is fucked up. Things will escalate, as per usual, and eventually things will calm down, as per usual. There isn't much can be done about that. Once that all stops, hopefully someone will have learned that only meaningfull dialogue is going to stop the constant cycle.

 

[Calaen]

Agree with Will,

I also believe that Israel cannot win in their situation. If they retaliate they get accused of going to far, what do we want them to do kill 8 soldiers then kidnap 2 in response? fuck that you gotta punish them for thinking they can do shit like that. If they dont respond the morons will keep doing it because they have become a soft touch.

I watched a report last night think it was on Channel 4, showing that in Haifa there are people from all religions and races working together peacefully without any of the bollocks. There is no way around it there is always going to be 1 family member left to carry the hatred towards whatever cause he is against to recruit more idiots.

I dont think there is an answer but surely herding them all up and carpet bombing the twats would sort most of it out. Same for these organisations promoting terrorism in our own country, let them have there street walks but as soon as they talk about bringing harm to a british person kill the contents of the street. That will shut the fuckers up.

 

[Penguin]

Recently though Israel seems to be using collective punishment. Somehow i can't see how a lack of electricity is going to prevent a few gunmen attacking outposts or kidnapping soldiers? However i can see it's going to prevent ordinary people from collecting water from electric pumps. It's going to increase pressure on the governments but it's also going to increase hatred for Isreal. Who cut out the power?

Now they're tearing Lebanon to pieces and destroying it's fragile economy. Tricky situation because ofcourse Isreal needs to support it's armed forces and can't just ignore kidnapped soldiers, they also need to protect themselves. I think they've gone too far though, i really can't see how what they're doing is going to prevent them from being attacked, ease tension in the area or secure the release of their soldiers?

 

[throdgrain]

We always see Israel did this and that from the BBC but if you delve deeper you will find its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, the headlines have always been 'ISRAEL EXPLODED INNOCENT CHILDRENS!!!!' not 'Israel retaliates for rockets launched into its city killing civillians'

This is true. And the terrorists always put thier bases very close to the civillian population for that very reason, yet the stupid buggers still support them. Why? "God" tells the too.
So, Hezbollah etc deliberately bomb civillians, and the BBC say very little, the Israelis accidentally bomb civillians and you get banner headlines from the BBC.
Its all stupidly biased.

 

[ECA]

Israel accidentally bombing civilians? are you taking the piss?

 

[Calaen]

They are not exactly firing them random now are they? they are targetting known outposts that have civilians around them which as covered by Throd is how these idiots work.

I would love to know what solution there is for Israel? oh and please dont get all hippy on me and promote love I may shit myself.

 

[Furr]

I criticised Israel and didnt get labelled anti-semitic

Thats because your post wasn't complete shit

 

[ECA]

They are not exactly firing them random now are they? they are targetting known outposts that have civilians around them which as covered by Throd is how these idiots work.

I would love to know what solution there is for Israel? oh and please dont get all hippy on me and promote love I may shit myself.

Solution? No good ones :-[

War for the next few decades followed by Iran and Israel nuking each other or something :/

Until the level of wealth in the middle east reaches that of western countries people are still going to act surprised at young men killing each other.

 

[Trem]

Solution? No good ones :-[

War for the next few decades followed by Iran and Israel nuking each other or something :/

Until the level of wealth in the middle east reaches that of western countries people are still going to act surprised at young men killing each other.

Aye, I am 70% sure most terrorism is born out of poverty. If they were happy, contented young men I don't think there would be much terrorism.

I know I would think 'fuck this for a lark, I aren't blowing myself up, I can get double time if I work Saturday'

 

[throdgrain]

Not always true though. After all A-Quaida comes a lot from weathly Egyptians with too much time on thier hands.

 

[Trem]

Not always true though. After all A-Quaida comes a lot from weathly Egyptians with too much time on thier hands.

They are the ones at the top though chum, they are the ones paying the poor ones to do these things.

I ain't seen Bin Laden with a backpack full of explosives yet, I didn't see him on one of the planes that blew up.

Hes a millionaire, maybe a billionaire.

Basically all it takes is a few nutters with too much money and we get what we are getting now.

 

[Tom]

*waits for someone to blame Crusades*